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JUDYJ 0
Then why must the rest of us listen to you go on and on if the JFTC already knows how you feel? ARe you trying to just cause them grief? Have you nothing better to do?
Sweetheart you have a beef with me than PM me and don't bring it here...YOU AGain are inappropriatly using this thread!
Sweetheart you have a beef with me than PM me and don't bring it here...YOU AGain are inappropriatly using this thread!
IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough!
Michele 1
QuoteYes, I conceder myself a survivor, cause I have survived living with cancer for almost eight years now. I will continue to fight the battle.
You are absolutely a survivor, Mar. And women like you - your strength, dignity, love, and joy - that is who this calendar is for. It is a recognition of what we as women are capable of, and it celebrates our femininity as well.
If someone wants to denigrate a calendar that will help raise money for cancer research, let 'em. If someone wants to intimate that the funds raised will not be going to cancer research, let 'em. If someone wants to voice an opinion ad nasuem that has been heard over and over, then let 'em. The proof being in the pudding and the eating thereof, it's going to be a tasty pudding for sure when all's said and done.
It's all good. Eye on the prize, Mar.
For those that have continued to voice support, thank you all from the bottom of our hearts. We are looking forward to helping those raise money through the calendar, and being able to contribute in a tangible way to those who are remembered, and those the ladies are jumping for, and I know we will have a ton of fun putting it together.
Ciels and Pinks-
Michele
~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~
If you JUST posted to spite everyone and gripe and piss and moan about people that are VOLUNTEERING their efforts to make a difference...
-well, it must be horrible to live in your head, and I feel sorry for you. It must hurt to be that cynical and negative. 
-well, it must be horrible to live in your head, and I feel sorry for you. It must hurt to be that cynical and negative. ~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.
skymama 37
These posts were detached from the Women's Forum JFTC thread. While MakeItHappen has every right to disagree with the way funds are raised for the event, they were inappropriate for the thread they were on. If anyone wants to continue the discussion, they may do so here, as long as the forum rules are followed, as always.
She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon
kallend 2,112
QuoteJan, you're welcome to not participate.
Ciels-
Michele
At what point does something that will raise money become so offensive that you would not consider it?
Is there a limit?
I'd bet you could raise a ton of money with a $50 a grope event, and you could always make the case that it's all about saving breasts so it's OK.
I agree with Jan on this one, maybe 'cos I'm old too
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
mailin 0
Hi Jan!
We haven't met, but I'll be looking forward to doing that next October
We appreciate what you've done not only for the sport, but for JFTC also - the work all you ladies do is outstanding, truly inspirational.
I know some folks may view this calendar as something other than what is intended to be. Maybe thats a communication 'mishap' our our parts. As I've explained to a few of the corporations we are trying to raise money from, we are using this calendar to show how strong woman are. You'd have to see the way we're picturing the pages to be laid out. The sensual shots will NOT be the main focus of the page - the freefall shots should be. This calendar will show off how kick ass woman can be - how strong and independant they are as skydivers. I can't think of any better way then to show them jumping from airplanes
We also need to keep in mind that this sport is something like 75% men, and raising money is difficult with that kind of ratio - so we need to make it appealing to them, as well as something grandma can put up in the church office.
This will be a classy calendar - becuase the last thing we want to do is degrade the wonderful work that you all do.
Keep your eye on the larger prize people - its raising money for a great cause
Jennifer
We haven't met, but I'll be looking forward to doing that next October
We appreciate what you've done not only for the sport, but for JFTC also - the work all you ladies do is outstanding, truly inspirational.
I know some folks may view this calendar as something other than what is intended to be. Maybe thats a communication 'mishap' our our parts. As I've explained to a few of the corporations we are trying to raise money from, we are using this calendar to show how strong woman are. You'd have to see the way we're picturing the pages to be laid out. The sensual shots will NOT be the main focus of the page - the freefall shots should be. This calendar will show off how kick ass woman can be - how strong and independant they are as skydivers. I can't think of any better way then to show them jumping from airplanes
We also need to keep in mind that this sport is something like 75% men, and raising money is difficult with that kind of ratio - so we need to make it appealing to them, as well as something grandma can put up in the church office.
This will be a classy calendar - becuase the last thing we want to do is degrade the wonderful work that you all do.
Keep your eye on the larger prize people - its raising money for a great cause
Jennifer
Arianna Frances
Michele 1
Well put, Jen.
Kallend, you're welcome to not purchase it and to support the JFTC however you choose...
Jan, your intimation that the money raised will not be going to JFTC or to cancer research is unfounded. If you have any questions, one of us will be happy to try to explain it to you.
Additionally, your tirade would have made more impact on the thread Angela started, regarding a summer full of cheaper jumps for ladies at a DZ. However, your personal issues with me are clouding your judgement. As you are not on the planning committee, you have NO idea what's going on, what the goals are, and how this is coming together.
Have questions? Ask. Want to just denigrate the efforts we're making? Fine as well. If your position has been well communicated to those in charge of JFTC in years past, and you disagree with it so much, I have to wonder at your willingness to participate, and your willingness to pay out the entrance fees that you seem to be so against. Then again, perhaps I'm dense.
It's your life, you run it as you see fit. I run mine, and spend my time, as I see fit.
Ciels-
Michele
~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~
Kallend, you're welcome to not purchase it and to support the JFTC however you choose...
Jan, your intimation that the money raised will not be going to JFTC or to cancer research is unfounded. If you have any questions, one of us will be happy to try to explain it to you.
Additionally, your tirade would have made more impact on the thread Angela started, regarding a summer full of cheaper jumps for ladies at a DZ. However, your personal issues with me are clouding your judgement. As you are not on the planning committee, you have NO idea what's going on, what the goals are, and how this is coming together.
Have questions? Ask. Want to just denigrate the efforts we're making? Fine as well. If your position has been well communicated to those in charge of JFTC in years past, and you disagree with it so much, I have to wonder at your willingness to participate, and your willingness to pay out the entrance fees that you seem to be so against. Then again, perhaps I'm dense.
It's your life, you run it as you see fit. I run mine, and spend my time, as I see fit.
Ciels-
Michele
~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~
turtlespeed 226
Quote
Coolers are fun.
Quote
The titty beer coolers that Val made last time were the epitome of our sexist stereotypical culture. 'Hey - these have tittys I can fondle' was said by a number of men purchasing the coolers. This reinforces the stereotype that women are here on the planet to be 'of service' to men and to define themselves in terms of men's wishes and wants.
I was givien one of these "Titty Coolers" - I'm pretty confused as to why you would find a "Koozie" that is made to somewhat resemble the figure of a woman, offensive.
Perhaps it's time to step down from your self built pedestal, look around a bit, and actually listen to the opinions of those around you. If you haven't noticed, you are in the extreme minority here.
Women are beautiful. Thier bodies are beautiful. What in the world is so wrong with celebrating those facts? It is also thier strength and will that helps with the reverance that men have for them. JFTC is about breast cancer. JFTC is about women empowering themselves to live through something few of us can comprehend.
No degredation is found by a guy fondling a set of plastic boobies attached to a piece of wet suit material thats whole purpose is to help keep a beer bottle cold.
LIGHTEN UP!!!!
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
Kallend makes a point here. Unlike MakeItHappen, I like the way he made it - without proselytizing or trying to undercut the motives for the calendar.
I disagree with the point, but his point was valid and objectively stated a subjective concern.
Still, MakeItHappen's comments seemed to be a bit over the top. I think it's just as wrong for a woman to tell another woman how she should think as it is for a man to tell a woman how she should think.
MakeItHappen stated:
This is YOUR belief. Other people believe differently, and other WOMEN believe differently. And for you to hold yourself out as an older and therefore more credible woman is to demean every other woman and man working on this project.
Why demean women to prove a point that women should not be demeaned?
The goal here is to raise money for cancer. This calendar does it in a legal way that is not begging for money. The goal is set, and the goals are being followed through. It is a challenge. It shows strength and courage to take on a monumental task like this, and is a test of endurance and fortitude.
By your reasoning, you should applaud these women who have made this choice, have taken on these challenges, and are doing it THEIR way. It's too bad you'd rather objectify them as "T&A Bait."![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]")
They are not. They are smart. They are goal-oriented. They are driven. They are altruists. They will succeed. And they will raise money for a worthy cause while not begging for calendar purchases.
I think that is a good thing. You disagree, and that is fine. It's just a shame you feel the need to demean these women who dare to think differently.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
I disagree with the point, but his point was valid and objectively stated a subjective concern.
Still, MakeItHappen's comments seemed to be a bit over the top. I think it's just as wrong for a woman to tell another woman how she should think as it is for a man to tell a woman how she should think.
MakeItHappen stated:
Quote
It is NOT about providing T&A bait.
I am absolutely positive that Sally Ride and Mary Ellen Weber would not see a 'sensual, seductive pose, revealing lots of cleavage' in their space suits as a positive image to their credibility as an astronaut or mission specialist.
This is YOUR belief. Other people believe differently, and other WOMEN believe differently. And for you to hold yourself out as an older and therefore more credible woman is to demean every other woman and man working on this project.
Why demean women to prove a point that women should not be demeaned?
Quote
It is about demonstrating, through proven challenges, on the same level as men or mixed gender playing fields, that women have strength, courage, endurance and the will to set and follow their goals.
The goal here is to raise money for cancer. This calendar does it in a legal way that is not begging for money. The goal is set, and the goals are being followed through. It is a challenge. It shows strength and courage to take on a monumental task like this, and is a test of endurance and fortitude.
By your reasoning, you should applaud these women who have made this choice, have taken on these challenges, and are doing it THEIR way. It's too bad you'd rather objectify them as "T&A Bait."
They are not. They are smart. They are goal-oriented. They are driven. They are altruists. They will succeed. And they will raise money for a worthy cause while not begging for calendar purchases.
I think that is a good thing. You disagree, and that is fine. It's just a shame you feel the need to demean these women who dare to think differently.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Wow!
For someone who has participated in JFTC, you sure aren't very supportive of its cause or the rest of the participates and supporters.
Jan, if you don't want to raise money or participate then don't. There really is no need to bash anyone trying to raise money for a good cause. Maybe breast cancer isn't a good enough cause for you but it is for me.
When I committed to the team the last 2 times, I understood that this is a FUNDRAISER. My understanding was to raise funds for our charity, which involved me asking/begging people for donations. I have been involved for fundraisers for various different charities and asking and begging for donations seems to be the norm.
Judy
For someone who has participated in JFTC, you sure aren't very supportive of its cause or the rest of the participates and supporters.
Jan, if you don't want to raise money or participate then don't. There really is no need to bash anyone trying to raise money for a good cause. Maybe breast cancer isn't a good enough cause for you but it is for me.
When I committed to the team the last 2 times, I understood that this is a FUNDRAISER. My understanding was to raise funds for our charity, which involved me asking/begging people for donations. I have been involved for fundraisers for various different charities and asking and begging for donations seems to be the norm.
Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.
billvon 3,080
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>A WWR is about raising the status of women in the entire sports
> arena. It is about giving credibility to a woman's athleticism.
If you make any claims to what it does to women's status, I'd say it sends a message that women need a separate event to be able to do big-ways. (Which obviously isn't true; something like 30% of the Thai attempt was women.)
But I don't think it's about "raising women's status." It's a big-way event that women do because they like to do big-ways, and/or they like to raise money for cancer research. It's organized by some of the best in the business, and is a good way to both set a record and do some good in the process.
>It is about changing the stereotypes that say women are weaker and
>less skilled. . . .
. . . and so they need their own record event??? That's like saying the Nevada state record will change the stereotype that Nevada skydivers are unskilled gamblers. No skydivers I know of think women are less skilled, less brave or weaker. When I see the things that Anne Heliwell, Marta Empinotti, Kate, Melanie, Karin, Djan, Molly, Eliana, Elena, Mary Farwell (the list is long, you get the idea) have done, and have overcome - any claim that men have an innate advantage over women in this sport is silly.
>that women have strength, courage, endurance and the will to set
>and follow their goals.
Right, but that's demonstrated just as well by Barbara Duke's performance in both Arizona and Thailand against some significant odds. And there is no "one sex only" thing in either of those places. She's one of the many that have shown that women are every bit as capable as men are, even in events where sex isn't an issue and where she is competing with men for a slot.
>I am absolutely positive that Sally Ride and Mary Ellen Weber would
> not see a 'sensual, seductive pose, revealing lots of cleavage' in
> their space suits as a positive image to their credibility as an
> astronaut or mission specialist.
Well, I'm pretty sure that showing cleavage in such a suit would be tough. How about Patty Wagstaff, one of the best aerobatic pilots in the world? Think the cleavage she shows in that picture makes her lose her credibility, or tarnishes her positive image?
> arena. It is about giving credibility to a woman's athleticism.
If you make any claims to what it does to women's status, I'd say it sends a message that women need a separate event to be able to do big-ways. (Which obviously isn't true; something like 30% of the Thai attempt was women.)
But I don't think it's about "raising women's status." It's a big-way event that women do because they like to do big-ways, and/or they like to raise money for cancer research. It's organized by some of the best in the business, and is a good way to both set a record and do some good in the process.
>It is about changing the stereotypes that say women are weaker and
>less skilled. . . .
. . . and so they need their own record event??? That's like saying the Nevada state record will change the stereotype that Nevada skydivers are unskilled gamblers. No skydivers I know of think women are less skilled, less brave or weaker. When I see the things that Anne Heliwell, Marta Empinotti, Kate, Melanie, Karin, Djan, Molly, Eliana, Elena, Mary Farwell (the list is long, you get the idea) have done, and have overcome - any claim that men have an innate advantage over women in this sport is silly.
>that women have strength, courage, endurance and the will to set
>and follow their goals.
Right, but that's demonstrated just as well by Barbara Duke's performance in both Arizona and Thailand against some significant odds. And there is no "one sex only" thing in either of those places. She's one of the many that have shown that women are every bit as capable as men are, even in events where sex isn't an issue and where she is competing with men for a slot.
>I am absolutely positive that Sally Ride and Mary Ellen Weber would
> not see a 'sensual, seductive pose, revealing lots of cleavage' in
> their space suits as a positive image to their credibility as an
> astronaut or mission specialist.
Well, I'm pretty sure that showing cleavage in such a suit would be tough. How about Patty Wagstaff, one of the best aerobatic pilots in the world? Think the cleavage she shows in that picture makes her lose her credibility, or tarnishes her positive image?
Has anyone arguing against this calendar even looked at the examples Michele posted? They are in the women's forum.
Sorry, but those pictures don't seem like T&A to me. They are more like artistic photography. Look at them. They are truly beautiful. From the way these posts have gone, you'd think they were trying to make a "playmate of the month" type thing. It's not that at all.
When I hear "T&A" I think "porn". When I see pictures like the ones Michele posted, I think "art".
Sorry, but those pictures don't seem like T&A to me. They are more like artistic photography. Look at them. They are truly beautiful. From the way these posts have gone, you'd think they were trying to make a "playmate of the month" type thing. It's not that at all.
When I hear "T&A" I think "porn". When I see pictures like the ones Michele posted, I think "art".
Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
Michele 1
QuoteWhen I hear "T&A" I think "porn". When I see pictures like the ones Michele posted, I think "art".
Ah, good. 'Cause that's what those photos are about...
Ciels-
Michele
~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~
Deuce 1
A copy of this calendar will be hanging in my daughter's bedroom. You bet I will not be a part of anything that is anything other than art. It's going to be fun to produce! Hopefully it will generate enough revenue to allow every woman who gets the nod from Kate to be able to participate.
kallend 2,112
QuoteWell put, Jen.
Kallend, you're welcome to not purchase it and to support the JFTC however you choose...
Nice evasion.
At what point does something that will raise money become so offensive that you would not consider it?
Is there a limit? Where do you draw the line?
Is Jan to be criticized for choosing a different line than you choose?
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
kallend 2,112
Quote
Keep your eye on the larger prize people - its raising money for a great cause
Jennifer
Well, I'd bet that charging for a quickie would raise more money than you'll ever make selling artwork. At what point do you consider something unacceptable as a fundraiser.
Apparently Jan has a different threshold than you do.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
mailin 0
QuoteIs Jan to be criticized for choosing a different line than you choose?
I don't believe any of us are critizing her for choosing a different line - we're getting defensive to the accusations she is making. She is free to use ANY method of fundraising she wants - we're just happy to give all the JFTC girls the option of using the calendar to fundraise with.
And did I mention - the calendar will be free for them to use? As in, it won't cost them a dime - they keep all the porfit. Any remaining profit from the sales can be donated to JFTC directly.
I don't understand why people have issue with this concept - its a win win situation. The girls win, and more importantly the struggle against breast cancer wins
Jennifer
Arianna Frances
mailin 0
QuoteWell, I'd bet that charging for a quickie would raise more money than you'll ever make selling artwork.
LMAO! Hey, if thats what Jan wants to do - more power to her. Just don't expect us to watch
On a serious side Kallend, we aren't forcing anyone to become involved. None of us are getting a RED CENT from this. If they don't want to thats fine, they're welcome to use other ways. We're defending our idea because we already have MANY photographers and MANY DZs committed to this - and the last thing we need is to have someone with a rod up their butt possibly ruining the months we've put into this (and the months we have ahead of us).
Jennifer
Arianna Frances
TomAiello 26
QuoteAt what point does something that will raise money become so offensive that you would not consider it?
At a different point for each person.
Since I am personally not offended by hard core porn, the question of the JFTC calendar showing slightly more skin than a Southern Baptist minister might feel comfortable with does not bother me.
BTW, did you look at the sample photos? That's hardly gratuitous, and definitely lands on the art side of the spectrum.
-- Tom Aiello
Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com
Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com
QuoteQuoteWell put, Jen.
Kallend, you're welcome to not purchase it and to support the JFTC however you choose...QuoteNice evasion.
John, I don't think Michele's answer was out of line. She was being polite, but somehow you want to stir the pot even more. Please, I have met you, and believe it or not, I think you are a nice man. The way you post here, to stir the pot is nothing like the man I have met in person.QuoteAt what point does something that will raise money become so offensive that you would not consider it?
Is there a limit? Where do you draw the line?
Yes, there is a limit to what we are doing with this calendar, and if you took the time to read what Michele had posted first in the Women's Forum, you might find your answer.QuoteIs Jan to be criticized for choosing a different line than you choose?
Again, look back and re-read anything we (Jen, Michele, or I) posted. I don't think we ever where disrespectful to Jan and what she was saying.
John, stop stirring the pot by putting words into other people's mouths.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey
I'm going to ask one of the mods to remove these post. This thread was started in the spirit of JFTC and what we are doing to help raise some money for the event.
As a cancer survivor and a JFTC participant, I'm very honored that so many people go out of their way to raise money for cancer research and donate of their time. Hell, even if five cents goes to the research of cancer out of five dollars, that is something. I'm grateful for even the little stuff, if it's going to help save my life.
Edit to add: I said cancer survivor, but I need to add to that. Yes, I conceder myself a survivor, cause I have survived living with cancer for almost eight years now. I will continue to fight the battle.
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