jlmiracle 7 #101 April 16, 2004 Quote I care not about what corporations want. They often profit at the mercy of others, they should make up for it and help improve the quality of life rather than the size of their bankroll. Yes, they DO owe us. -Rory Quote The only people they owe are their shareholders and creditor's. They don't owe the general public anything. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #102 April 16, 2004 QuoteThey don't owe the general public anything. Nope, they owe us, the general public, absolutely nothing. And Lisa explained why skydiving is anathma to corportions...and did it succintly and well. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveNFlorida 0 #103 April 16, 2004 QuoteQuoteThey don't owe the general public anything. Nope, they owe us, the General public, absolutely nothing. And Lisa explained why skydiving is anathma to corportions...and did it succintly and well. Ciels- Michele But, we are not raising money for skydivers... we are raising money for breast cancer. You can raise money for this cause without skydiving (obviously you recognize this, since your intent is to sell a calendar, not of women skydivers being awesome skydivers, but of women, who happen to skydive, posing provocatively). The way I read his post was that if you really want to make a difference, the $$ is at corporations and big business.. you could maybe rally women to hit up these businesses, and you can make it appealing to them to donate i'm sure (many businesses donate to charity, and it isn't because the president of the company has a child with leukemia, or a relative with Parkinson's disease, it's because it makes them look good!). Just an alternative to raising small $$ by selling a t&a calendar which has no place in funding breast cancer research. That was my interpretation of what Kaerock wrote, anyhow. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,111 #104 April 16, 2004 >(obviously you recognize this, since your intent is to sell a calendar, > not of women skydivers being awesome skydivers, but of women, > who happen to skydive, posing provocatively). So you are in favor of not showing any pictures of skydiving? I have a feeling they will do that anyway. (The photographers are all prepared for air to air.) >The way I read his post was that if you really want to make a > difference, the $$ is at corporations and big business.. you could > maybe rally women to hit up these businesses, and you can make it > appealing to them to donate i'm sure (many businesses donate to > charity, and it isn't because the president of the company has a > child with leukemia, or a relative with Parkinson's disease, it's > because it makes them look good!) Sounds like a good idea! Let us know how it goes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveNFlorida 0 #105 April 16, 2004 QuoteThe pictures that have been posted are quite tasteful and definitely not porn. The picture I linked can absolutely be considered porn. You all say it like it's a bad thing. I am not "ANTI-PORN", if women want to shoot provocative pictures of themselves, I don't have a problem with it. I just don't think that they should be pushing t&a in support of breast cancer research is all. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveNFlorida 0 #106 April 16, 2004 Quote>(obviously you recognize this, since your intent is to sell a calendar, > not of women skydivers being awesome skydivers, but of women, > who happen to skydive, posing provocatively). So you are in favor of not showing any pictures of skydiving? I have a feeling they will do that anyway. (The photographers are all prepared for air to air.) >The way I read his post was that if you really want to make a > difference, the $$ is at corporations and big business.. you could > maybe rally women to hit up these businesses, and you can make it > appealing to them to donate i'm sure (many businesses donate to > charity, and it isn't because the president of the company has a > child with leukemia, or a relative with Parkinson's disease, it's > because it makes them look good!) Sounds like a good idea! Let us know how it goes. Personally, if it's gonna be a t&a calendar, I don't think that anyone is really gonna be buying it for the pictures of women skydiving anyhow, so why put them in? It just makes it seem like they are trying to make it less wrong by putting other pictures in. Whatever. I don't have time to go around to corporations all day trying to raise funds for charity. I am not saying it wouldn't be a great cause, it would. I simply don't have any hours left in my day to make that happen. The jftc ladies are doing a great job of putting time and energy into this calendar... all that was said is that if they really want to make a difference, there are better ways to do so. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #107 April 16, 2004 QuoteBut, we are not raising money for skydivers... we are raising money for breast cancer. You can raise money for this cause without skydiving (obviously you recognize this, since your intent is to sell a calendar, not of women skydivers being awesome skydivers, but of women, who happen to skydive, posing provocatively). Ah, I see where the problem is. The calendar is not to raise money for breast cancer directly. It is primarily to provide the ladies who are doing what they can do (jello shots, beer coolers, begging for donations, barcrawls, and so on) an alternative avenue to raise entrance fees for their participation in JFTC. Should there be an overflow, and I hope there is, then the money will go directly to JFTC as a general donation. They in turn will donate it to City of Hope, I believe. As for your issue about provocation, I again say you're welcome to your opinion, and your thoughts. I disagree, and wish you could respect that. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Keith 0 #108 April 16, 2004 I find it interesting that you want Michele and others to lend credibility to your posts yet you post anonymously? One would think that if you were so strong in your convictions you'd want to be known.Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #109 April 16, 2004 QuoteThe picture I linked can absolutely be considered porn. Maybe by Jerry Falwell or John Ashcroft. Excuwe me for butting in here, but isn't one of the primary sources of depression for post operative breast cancer survivors the appearance of their breasts? I just assume so since it would seem the majority of patients opt for cosmetic surgery. I think the depiction of breasts in a tasteful manner goes to the heart of the matter, does it not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveNFlorida 0 #110 April 16, 2004 QuoteThe calendar is not to raise money for breast cancer directly. Um, ok. I don't think this changes much about my opinion.. it is still widely thought of as a calendar to promote awareness of and action against breast cancer. This whole event IS supposed to be to raise money for breast cancer research, right? Quote As for your issue about provocation, I again say you're welcome to your opinion, and your thoughts. I disagree, and wish you could respect that. I respect your opinion, Michele. We disagree, and that is ok. This is just a place to speak up about it, whatever opinion you have. Have a good weekend:) Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveNFlorida 0 #111 April 16, 2004 QuoteI find it interesting that you want Michele and others to lend credibility to your posts yet you post anonymously? One would think that if you were so strong in your convictions you'd want to be known. My info was on this site at one time. I removed it for a reason. Michele and others know that I had info on here at one time and may even understand my reasons for removing it. I don't think that in this case my posts are any less credible. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkydiveNFlorida 0 #112 April 16, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe picture I linked can absolutely be considered porn. Maybe by Jerry Falwell or John Ashcroft. Excuwe me for butting in here, but isn't one of the primary sources of depression for post operative breast cancer survivors the appearance of their breasts? I just assume so since it would seem the majority of patients opt for cosmetic surgery. I think the depiction of breasts in a tasteful manner goes to the heart of the matter, does it not? Many of these women have had their breasts removed. Read what Jan wrote about self esteem issues and such. I think that a better calendar would show that women are strong and THAT makes them beautiful. Regardless of what anyone says, I think that a calendar composed of pictures of women kicking ass in the sky, swooping, etc.. would be awesome! Maybe include pictures of survivors who continue to show their strength and beauty by participating in the extreme sports or whatnot. I think the market for this type of calendar would be larger, too:) Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #113 April 16, 2004 QuoteMaybe include pictures of survivors who continue to show their strength and beauty by participating in the extreme sports or whatnot Here's my frustration with the conversation. Do you have any idea how many hours we've thought about, discussed, tossed ideas around? Do you have any notion about the logistics and the planning that has already gone into this? How do you know what's going to be on the calendar? How do you know we are not planning something like that? Do you really think we haven't thought about a photo like that??? And tried to figure out how to handle that tastefully and discreetly? I am frustrated because someone thinks we're producing porn. I'm frustrated because someone else thinks we are objectifying women. I am frustrated because so many assumptions are being made, without any real basis to make them from. Here's an idea. Let's all wait until we have the shots together, and the calendar is released, before you start being so critical of this. If you prejudge something, then perhaps you're selling the calendar short. The calendar is about real women. Their hearts, their souls, their eyes, their laughs, their smiles. The calendar is about women who've committed many years to a sport which can kill us in a heartbeat. It's about their strength, their courage, their commitment. It's about these women coming together from all over the world to make a difference in something that has affected many of us. It's *also* about sensuality and beauty of women. But it's not just skydivers, nor just women. All forms and parts. It's about the whole, not the one-side. It's not T&A. It's not porn. Wait. Please just wait until the calendar is out before you determine what it is and what it's not, how it can be done better, and what you'd do in our stead. February/March isn't far away...and there's a whole summer and fall to skydive in during the meantime. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Keith 0 #114 April 17, 2004 Hang in there Michele. The majority of us Know you're doing the right thing. Let me know when the calendars are published. I'd be happy to peddle porn for you any day Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites carbonezone 0 #115 April 17, 2004 DONT BUY IT.....DONT LOOK AT IT....DONT BUY IT.....DONT LOOK AT IT!!!! GET OVER IT ALREADY..... ""GEEZ I CANT BELIEVE I JUST WASTED MY TIME TYPING THIS"" DONE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MakeItHappen 15 #116 April 17, 2004 Quote Excuwe me for butting in here, but isn't one of the primary sources of depression for post operative breast cancer survivors the appearance of their breasts? I just assume so since it would seem the majority of patients opt for cosmetic surgery. I think the depiction of breasts in a tasteful manner goes to the heart of the matter, does it not? Sexual stereotypes are ingrained into us from birth. The first question asked is 'Is it a boy or girl?' There are times when a social belief, that we have grown up with, is so familiar and so comfortable that we cannot see it for what it is. Maybe it is because we never question the values or implications. Kevin's post expresses the deeply ingrained sexual stereotyping of women and the 'value' for their looks or breasts or sex appeal etc. I've read many of his posts. This post was not done with any malice or deliberate intention to hurt anyone. The thought that a 'tasteful depiction of breasts' would help relieve depression is outrageous. Would a 'tasteful depiction of healthy arms and legs' relieve depression for someone that has just lost a limb? People that go thru these life-altering changes are mad as hell about what has happened to them. Wouldn't you be? They need to accept their new bodies as they are, not what society expects to see. Prosthetics may be used in public, but when you get into the shower each morning you have to come to terms with your body. Women are more than a pair of breasts. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MakeItHappen 15 #117 April 17, 2004 Quote Ah, I see where the problem is. Really?! QuoteTHEN:If someone wants to intimate that the funds raised will not be going to cancer research, let 'em. NOW:The calendar is not to raise money for breast cancer directly. It is primarily to provide the ladies who are doing what they can do (jello shots, beer coolers, begging for donations, barcrawls, and so on) an alternative avenue to raise entrance fees for their participation in JFTC. Should there be an overflow, and I hope there is, then the money will go directly to JFTC as a general donation. They in turn will donate it to City of Hope, I believe. It is good to see you change your statements. Seems as though you actually realize now that "Part of the reason it is 'so' hard to raise funds is because part of the 'donations' go to pay for the jumps of the participants." from my original post to this thread has some truth in it. It also appears that you are acting as a third party supplier for this promotional item. IOW, JFTC is not paying for the cost the calendar and as such it would not appear as an expense item on their 990. Please correct me, if this is not the arrangement. Quote As for your issue about provocation, I again say you're welcome to your opinion, and your thoughts. I disagree, and wish you could respect that. Perhaps the reason people do not respect what you say is because you continually discount or trivialize other people's comments in a rather flippant way, instead of addressing their concern or comment directly. Quote Here's my frustration with the conversation. See above. QuoteTHEN:Sure, lots of skin, cleavage, muted tones, black and white maybe, but no "money" shots...it's about the different sides of our skysisters, their ability to put together an amazing skydiving event, as well as be sensual, gentle, beautiful, erotic women. NOW:I am frustrated because someone thinks we're producing porn. I'm frustrated because someone else thinks we are objectifying women. I am frustrated because so many assumptions are being made, without any real basis to make them from. QuoteDo you have any idea how many hours we've thought about, discussed, tossed ideas around? Do you have any notion about the logistics and the planning that has already gone into this? How do you know what's going to be on the calendar? How do you know we are not planning something like that? Do you really think we haven't thought about a photo like that??? And tried to figure out how to handle that tastefully and discreetly? Yes I did think that you did not consider how your description of the calendar and the erotica photo you posted would be considered by women athletes and breast cancer survivors. You repeatedly said the calendar would have erotic aspects to it. I even referred to the calendar as an erotica calendar. You made no attempt to clarify any misconceptions that anyone might have had. Since you have so much work done already, what are the projected numbers for the calendar? What is the projected cost? What will you sell it for? Here's how those numbers can be used to follow the money trail. [These are example numbers that are approximately similar (mark up - wise) to promotional items sold in 2002.] Cost = $5 Sale price = $10 Percentage of Donor's Money that gets to the Charity: 1999 JFTC 990: 0.5 x 0.6 = .3 => 30 cents of every dollar 2002 JFTC 990: 0.5 x 0.7 = .39 => 35 cents of every dollar The .5 number is based on what the mark up was for similar promotional items at the 2002 JFTC. The .6 and .7 numbers come from the JFTC IRS 990 forms, available at GuideStar, and are a simple ratio of amount donated to the charity divided by total revenue. BTW. those ratios for JFTC are generally considered to be very good. The percentage of Donor's money from the sale of promotional items that makes it to the charity is very low. This is because of the third-party that is in the money trail. If a promotional item had a much larger markup, then the percentage of Donor's money that makes it to the charity could be 50% or more. [50% is generally considered the crossover point in evaluating charities. There are other factors to consider too.] Back to the easy number example- a $5 product sold for $20 would yield: percentage of donor's money to charity = .75 x .7 = .525 or 52 and a half cents of every dollar Quote Here's an idea. Let's all wait until we have the shots together, and the calendar is released, before you start being so critical of this. If you prejudge something, then perhaps you're selling the calendar short. That would be too late. The judgement is based upon statements you made and photos you posted. Perhaps, you might want a make a new sticky thread with photos that are representative of what you are doing and a clarification of the money trail. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #118 April 17, 2004 Thanks for sharing, Jan. Have a great weekend! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #119 April 17, 2004 Quotethese life-altering changes Quotemad as hell about what has happened to them. Jan, There are women taking an active role in producing this calendar that have gone through these"these life-altering changes". And they may be "mad as hell about what has happened to them". But then I have no idea how they fell and neither do you. You can't speak for these women anymore than I can. In fact, as a cancer survivor, I may be able to speak for them where you can't. No one is trying to degrade or belittle women, hell this whole project is being produced and directed by women for the benefit of women. Please give it a chance, you may be surprised.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,111 #120 April 17, 2004 >Regardless of what anyone says, I think that a calendar composed > of pictures of women kicking ass in the sky, swooping, etc.. would > be awesome! Maybe include pictures of survivors who continue to > show their strength and beauty by participating in the extreme > sports or whatnot. Yet you are certain the calendar will not contain this? A lot of people seem angered by your posts, judging by the tone of their replies. Let me pose a parallel situation here for you: A bunch of women get together to jump and raise money to fight breast cancer. A whuffo reporter gets hold of this info and writes "I totally object. This is wrong, wrong, wrong. A bunch of women wants to raise money for breast cancer, and so they jump out of an airplane? Why do we want to send the message that people with breast cancer, or who fight breast cancer, are all suicidal? It's the wrong message, and it goes counter to everything true survivors do." The women of the JFTC might be annoyed by such a story, because they know that skydiving is not a suicidal behavior (even though people die on record attempts with some regularity.) They would probably think that the whuffo reporter is just blabbering on a subject she knows nothing about. They might react with anger, or they might invite her to the DZ so they can learn more about skydiving. Along the same vein, perhaps you might want to learn more about the calendar before deciding what you think is in it (or what isn't in it) and what your judgement on the imagined contents is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VanillaSkyGirl 6 #121 April 17, 2004 QuoteI think that a calendar composed of pictures of women kicking ass in the sky, swooping, etc.. would be awesome! Maybe include pictures of survivors who continue to show their strength and beauty by participating in the extreme sports or whatnot. I think that is a FABULOUS suggestion. I had the exact same thoughts. Perhaps the ladies working on the calendar have had this idea, as well. The cancer survivors could even be in black and white artistic shots. The cancer survivors could have the "This is me...here I am. I am still beautiful and ALIVE" attitude/look in there photos. Of course, Michele and the ladies have their own creative ideas. Personally, I have no problem with nudity in artistic photos. Nudity does not have to be sexual in nature. I have drawn completely nude people for many years now, and I love it. I have never once found it to sexual...quite the opposite, actually. Sexual pictures and sexuality can be just as easily shown with clothes on as seen in Maxim, etc. Yes, I do consider those mags to be "light porn", but I have NEVER considered any of my totally nude drawings to be pornographic in ANY way. The idea of showing nude, healthy breasts for a breast cancer calendar may be a little upseting to some people...in thought, but who knows what we will really feel when we see these pics. Maybe they will be beautiful nude shots of ladies' backs or legs or other body parts, maybe not. We don't know, yet. I strongly believe that everyone is entitled to their opinions. Since this calendar is representing women who skydive, many skydivers who are women seem to be worried that they/we may be misrepresented. I think that we should take a wait and see attitude. Some concerned posters may be trying to give suggestions or views of what may or may not be what they consider appropriate for this calendar, but, perhaps, when posting, some of these people are too abrasive. This is not a black mark against the co-chairs of the calendar or against the calendar in my eyes. Neither is it a negative thing to have some of these questions. Perhaps, we can all learn and grow from these discussions. Granted...these discussions have, at times, gone a bit out of control. This calendar is not about the ladies who are working on this calendar and their "morals", it is a JFTC calendar. The focus on this calendar is to raise money for this beautiful event in 2005, which is in the name of breast cancer research. Everyone should be focusing on that...keeping their eyes on the prize. I love that I have read such strong, yet opposing viewpoints. I believe that everyone here does have good intentions about the way that they all think that we as women should be portrayed. Thank you all for writing these well-thought posts. These posts have made me think even more about the cancer survivors and their strength and courage, as well as, the portrayal (media, and otherwise) of women, in general. I am still digesting and re-evaluating everything that I have read here from Jan, Michele, Angela, Bill, etc....all people whom I admire for different reasons. Peace to everyone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflybella 0 #122 April 17, 2004 Jan's post is valid. The intended content of the calendar seems to have changed - or possibly, more thought has been given to the content. I think that's a good thing. I believe the different perspectives offered here (although I also believe they should have remained in the women's forum under the original post) have made alot of us think. I don't think drawing nudes for art class and the study of the human form is at all what's being discussed here. Absolutely that is not about sexuality. But the dissecting and objectification of female body parts (showing backs, legs, necks, etc) for 'sensuality' or 'beauty' goes to the heart of why some have a problem with this calendar - for this cause. QuoteSome concerned posters may be trying to give suggestions or views of what may or may not be what they consider appropriate for this calendar, but, perhaps, when posting, some of these people are too abrasive. To me, that only shows the conviction of those posters. And the depth of this issue. This is not a mutual admiration society - it's a message board for skydivers. edited: rudeness is never conducive to communication The calendar of firemen analogy was interesting. And made me think. The difference is that men as a whole are not objectified to the extent that women are. I think a better analogy would be a calendar of men holding their bank statements. There is a 'message' sent everytime each of us does something. That can't be helped - we're social animals. Everytime we put something out there, it's being received. We owe it to ourselves, and to those we're 'speaking' for - to make sure we know what message we're sending. Mindfulness isn't weakness. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MakeItHappen 15 #123 April 17, 2004 QuoteQuote Excuwe me for butting in here, but isn't one of the primary sources of depression for post operative breast cancer survivors the appearance of their breasts? I just assume so since it would seem the majority of patients opt for cosmetic surgery. I think the depiction of breasts in a tasteful manner goes to the heart of the matter, does it not? Sexual stereotypes are ingrained into us from birth. The first question asked is 'Is it a boy or girl?' There are times when a social belief, that we have grown up with, is so familiar and so comfortable that we cannot see it for what it is. Maybe it is because we never question the values or implications. Kevin's post expresses the deeply ingrained sexual stereotyping of women and the 'value' for their looks or breasts or sex appeal etc. I've read many of his posts. This post was not done with any malice or deliberate intention to hurt anyone. The thought that a 'tasteful depiction of breasts' would help relieve depression is outrageous. Would a 'tasteful depiction of healthy arms and legs' relieve depression for someone that has just lost a limb? People that go thru these life-altering changes are mad as hell about what has happened to them. Wouldn't you be? They need to accept their new bodies as they are, not what society expects to see. Prosthetics may be used in public, but when you get into the shower each morning you have to come to terms with your body. Women are more than a pair of breasts. . I forgot to add that a tasteful depiction of mastectomy scars or missing limbs would be positive imagery. Years ago I saw a web site that showed the physical devastation of breast cancer. Women told their stories about the time and effort it took to accept them for what and who they were. It was a very powerful and moving site. Unfortunately, I cannot find the web site now. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #124 April 17, 2004 Quote Years ago I saw a web site that showed the physical devastation of breast cancer. Women told their stories about the time and effort it took to accept them for what and who they were. It was a very powerful and moving site. Unfortunately, I cannot find the web site now. I've seen similar sites, Jan, while researching the calendar. Canceranswers Click an image... Art Myers The first 4 images here are about breast cancer...same photographer as above (Art Myers) Sharon Seligmanscroll to the bottom (but don't miss the written items)... Breast Cancer of Canda Calendar The very last image, down at the bottom right, made me cry...and rejoice in suvivorship. Pictorial with Quotes Not exclusively breast cancer, but about cancer survivorship, nonetheless. Please note, some of these photos, while compelling and incredible, will not be appropriate for the calendar we are producing. And all of these sites have contributed to my personal vision of the calendar. This is not just a calendar of survivors, however, but of all of those who've been touched, affected, and committed ourselves to combating this illness. It also is about life, joy, happiness, beauty, love, friendship, and strength. And it's about skydiving. At this point, I have nothing further to add. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VanillaSkyGirl 6 #125 April 17, 2004 QuoteJan's post is valid. I have NEVER said that Jan's posts were not valid. I agree that this calendar and the intended content seem to be constantly be changing, which is a good thing and quite normal when undertaking such a project. Obviously, as I have stated before, this discussion is a good thing. I never said anything negative about Jan, and I support what she has to say as a woman. I don't know why you would think otherwise. QuoteI believe the different perspectives offered here...have made alot of us think. Then, you are agreeing with my original post because I wrote basically the same thing. QuoteI don't think drawing nudes for art class and the study of the human form is at all what's being discussed here. First, I never said that my art work was for "art class"(Otis Parsons was 10 years ago)...I sometimes draw in galleries at night with fellow artists. Anyway, I have no idea why I have to rehash this. Sigh...in my prior post, I was explaining how nudity in art does not have to be sexual, as we all know if we have ever visited a museum or opened an art history book, etc. Also, sexual pictures can certainly be taken with a clothed subject. My point was that nudity alone does not have to be sexual. I also hope that the nudity in the JFTC calendar is handled in a non-sexual manner, but I have no idea what the calendar is about exatly at this point. I will have to read Michele, Mar, Jen's updates to find out. I trust that everyone involved in this calendar is thinking about all the issues that we have been covering online. You quoted me...QuoteSome concerned posters may be trying to give suggestions or views of what may or may not be what they consider appropriate for this calendar, but, perhaps, when posting, some of these people are too abrasive. You answered...QuoteTo me, that only shows the conviction of those posters. And the depth of this issue. Freeflybella, do not take what I wrote out of context. I also wrote after that Quote Neither is it a negative thing to have some of these questions. Perhaps, we can all learn and grow from these discussions. You also wrote this. QuoteThis is not a mutual admiration society - it's a message board for skydivers. edited: rudeness is never conducive to communication Ugh...thanks for pointing that out, but I figured that one out a long time ago, my dear. I also know that people are more inclined to listen and respect each other if issues are discussed without it getting personal or without people taking things that others have written personally. I am not pointing fingers at ANYONE, so please don't misquote me or take what I have written out of context. Freeflybella, after reading what you wrote, I think that you and I are on the same page more or less. Reread my post. I also think that it's ironic that you chose to dissect MY post, in particular, then rewrite basically some of the same things...except for the "mindfulness isn't weakness" quote. I agree with that, as well, though. Sorry, I have nothing more to disagree with you about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 5 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Michele 1 #102 April 16, 2004 QuoteThey don't owe the general public anything. Nope, they owe us, the general public, absolutely nothing. And Lisa explained why skydiving is anathma to corportions...and did it succintly and well. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #103 April 16, 2004 QuoteQuoteThey don't owe the general public anything. Nope, they owe us, the General public, absolutely nothing. And Lisa explained why skydiving is anathma to corportions...and did it succintly and well. Ciels- Michele But, we are not raising money for skydivers... we are raising money for breast cancer. You can raise money for this cause without skydiving (obviously you recognize this, since your intent is to sell a calendar, not of women skydivers being awesome skydivers, but of women, who happen to skydive, posing provocatively). The way I read his post was that if you really want to make a difference, the $$ is at corporations and big business.. you could maybe rally women to hit up these businesses, and you can make it appealing to them to donate i'm sure (many businesses donate to charity, and it isn't because the president of the company has a child with leukemia, or a relative with Parkinson's disease, it's because it makes them look good!). Just an alternative to raising small $$ by selling a t&a calendar which has no place in funding breast cancer research. That was my interpretation of what Kaerock wrote, anyhow. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #104 April 16, 2004 >(obviously you recognize this, since your intent is to sell a calendar, > not of women skydivers being awesome skydivers, but of women, > who happen to skydive, posing provocatively). So you are in favor of not showing any pictures of skydiving? I have a feeling they will do that anyway. (The photographers are all prepared for air to air.) >The way I read his post was that if you really want to make a > difference, the $$ is at corporations and big business.. you could > maybe rally women to hit up these businesses, and you can make it > appealing to them to donate i'm sure (many businesses donate to > charity, and it isn't because the president of the company has a > child with leukemia, or a relative with Parkinson's disease, it's > because it makes them look good!) Sounds like a good idea! Let us know how it goes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #105 April 16, 2004 QuoteThe pictures that have been posted are quite tasteful and definitely not porn. The picture I linked can absolutely be considered porn. You all say it like it's a bad thing. I am not "ANTI-PORN", if women want to shoot provocative pictures of themselves, I don't have a problem with it. I just don't think that they should be pushing t&a in support of breast cancer research is all. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #106 April 16, 2004 Quote>(obviously you recognize this, since your intent is to sell a calendar, > not of women skydivers being awesome skydivers, but of women, > who happen to skydive, posing provocatively). So you are in favor of not showing any pictures of skydiving? I have a feeling they will do that anyway. (The photographers are all prepared for air to air.) >The way I read his post was that if you really want to make a > difference, the $$ is at corporations and big business.. you could > maybe rally women to hit up these businesses, and you can make it > appealing to them to donate i'm sure (many businesses donate to > charity, and it isn't because the president of the company has a > child with leukemia, or a relative with Parkinson's disease, it's > because it makes them look good!) Sounds like a good idea! Let us know how it goes. Personally, if it's gonna be a t&a calendar, I don't think that anyone is really gonna be buying it for the pictures of women skydiving anyhow, so why put them in? It just makes it seem like they are trying to make it less wrong by putting other pictures in. Whatever. I don't have time to go around to corporations all day trying to raise funds for charity. I am not saying it wouldn't be a great cause, it would. I simply don't have any hours left in my day to make that happen. The jftc ladies are doing a great job of putting time and energy into this calendar... all that was said is that if they really want to make a difference, there are better ways to do so. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #107 April 16, 2004 QuoteBut, we are not raising money for skydivers... we are raising money for breast cancer. You can raise money for this cause without skydiving (obviously you recognize this, since your intent is to sell a calendar, not of women skydivers being awesome skydivers, but of women, who happen to skydive, posing provocatively). Ah, I see where the problem is. The calendar is not to raise money for breast cancer directly. It is primarily to provide the ladies who are doing what they can do (jello shots, beer coolers, begging for donations, barcrawls, and so on) an alternative avenue to raise entrance fees for their participation in JFTC. Should there be an overflow, and I hope there is, then the money will go directly to JFTC as a general donation. They in turn will donate it to City of Hope, I believe. As for your issue about provocation, I again say you're welcome to your opinion, and your thoughts. I disagree, and wish you could respect that. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #108 April 16, 2004 I find it interesting that you want Michele and others to lend credibility to your posts yet you post anonymously? One would think that if you were so strong in your convictions you'd want to be known.Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #109 April 16, 2004 QuoteThe picture I linked can absolutely be considered porn. Maybe by Jerry Falwell or John Ashcroft. Excuwe me for butting in here, but isn't one of the primary sources of depression for post operative breast cancer survivors the appearance of their breasts? I just assume so since it would seem the majority of patients opt for cosmetic surgery. I think the depiction of breasts in a tasteful manner goes to the heart of the matter, does it not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #110 April 16, 2004 QuoteThe calendar is not to raise money for breast cancer directly. Um, ok. I don't think this changes much about my opinion.. it is still widely thought of as a calendar to promote awareness of and action against breast cancer. This whole event IS supposed to be to raise money for breast cancer research, right? Quote As for your issue about provocation, I again say you're welcome to your opinion, and your thoughts. I disagree, and wish you could respect that. I respect your opinion, Michele. We disagree, and that is ok. This is just a place to speak up about it, whatever opinion you have. Have a good weekend:) Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #111 April 16, 2004 QuoteI find it interesting that you want Michele and others to lend credibility to your posts yet you post anonymously? One would think that if you were so strong in your convictions you'd want to be known. My info was on this site at one time. I removed it for a reason. Michele and others know that I had info on here at one time and may even understand my reasons for removing it. I don't think that in this case my posts are any less credible. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #112 April 16, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe picture I linked can absolutely be considered porn. Maybe by Jerry Falwell or John Ashcroft. Excuwe me for butting in here, but isn't one of the primary sources of depression for post operative breast cancer survivors the appearance of their breasts? I just assume so since it would seem the majority of patients opt for cosmetic surgery. I think the depiction of breasts in a tasteful manner goes to the heart of the matter, does it not? Many of these women have had their breasts removed. Read what Jan wrote about self esteem issues and such. I think that a better calendar would show that women are strong and THAT makes them beautiful. Regardless of what anyone says, I think that a calendar composed of pictures of women kicking ass in the sky, swooping, etc.. would be awesome! Maybe include pictures of survivors who continue to show their strength and beauty by participating in the extreme sports or whatnot. I think the market for this type of calendar would be larger, too:) Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #113 April 16, 2004 QuoteMaybe include pictures of survivors who continue to show their strength and beauty by participating in the extreme sports or whatnot Here's my frustration with the conversation. Do you have any idea how many hours we've thought about, discussed, tossed ideas around? Do you have any notion about the logistics and the planning that has already gone into this? How do you know what's going to be on the calendar? How do you know we are not planning something like that? Do you really think we haven't thought about a photo like that??? And tried to figure out how to handle that tastefully and discreetly? I am frustrated because someone thinks we're producing porn. I'm frustrated because someone else thinks we are objectifying women. I am frustrated because so many assumptions are being made, without any real basis to make them from. Here's an idea. Let's all wait until we have the shots together, and the calendar is released, before you start being so critical of this. If you prejudge something, then perhaps you're selling the calendar short. The calendar is about real women. Their hearts, their souls, their eyes, their laughs, their smiles. The calendar is about women who've committed many years to a sport which can kill us in a heartbeat. It's about their strength, their courage, their commitment. It's about these women coming together from all over the world to make a difference in something that has affected many of us. It's *also* about sensuality and beauty of women. But it's not just skydivers, nor just women. All forms and parts. It's about the whole, not the one-side. It's not T&A. It's not porn. Wait. Please just wait until the calendar is out before you determine what it is and what it's not, how it can be done better, and what you'd do in our stead. February/March isn't far away...and there's a whole summer and fall to skydive in during the meantime. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #114 April 17, 2004 Hang in there Michele. The majority of us Know you're doing the right thing. Let me know when the calendars are published. I'd be happy to peddle porn for you any day Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carbonezone 0 #115 April 17, 2004 DONT BUY IT.....DONT LOOK AT IT....DONT BUY IT.....DONT LOOK AT IT!!!! GET OVER IT ALREADY..... ""GEEZ I CANT BELIEVE I JUST WASTED MY TIME TYPING THIS"" DONE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #116 April 17, 2004 Quote Excuwe me for butting in here, but isn't one of the primary sources of depression for post operative breast cancer survivors the appearance of their breasts? I just assume so since it would seem the majority of patients opt for cosmetic surgery. I think the depiction of breasts in a tasteful manner goes to the heart of the matter, does it not? Sexual stereotypes are ingrained into us from birth. The first question asked is 'Is it a boy or girl?' There are times when a social belief, that we have grown up with, is so familiar and so comfortable that we cannot see it for what it is. Maybe it is because we never question the values or implications. Kevin's post expresses the deeply ingrained sexual stereotyping of women and the 'value' for their looks or breasts or sex appeal etc. I've read many of his posts. This post was not done with any malice or deliberate intention to hurt anyone. The thought that a 'tasteful depiction of breasts' would help relieve depression is outrageous. Would a 'tasteful depiction of healthy arms and legs' relieve depression for someone that has just lost a limb? People that go thru these life-altering changes are mad as hell about what has happened to them. Wouldn't you be? They need to accept their new bodies as they are, not what society expects to see. Prosthetics may be used in public, but when you get into the shower each morning you have to come to terms with your body. Women are more than a pair of breasts. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #117 April 17, 2004 Quote Ah, I see where the problem is. Really?! QuoteTHEN:If someone wants to intimate that the funds raised will not be going to cancer research, let 'em. NOW:The calendar is not to raise money for breast cancer directly. It is primarily to provide the ladies who are doing what they can do (jello shots, beer coolers, begging for donations, barcrawls, and so on) an alternative avenue to raise entrance fees for their participation in JFTC. Should there be an overflow, and I hope there is, then the money will go directly to JFTC as a general donation. They in turn will donate it to City of Hope, I believe. It is good to see you change your statements. Seems as though you actually realize now that "Part of the reason it is 'so' hard to raise funds is because part of the 'donations' go to pay for the jumps of the participants." from my original post to this thread has some truth in it. It also appears that you are acting as a third party supplier for this promotional item. IOW, JFTC is not paying for the cost the calendar and as such it would not appear as an expense item on their 990. Please correct me, if this is not the arrangement. Quote As for your issue about provocation, I again say you're welcome to your opinion, and your thoughts. I disagree, and wish you could respect that. Perhaps the reason people do not respect what you say is because you continually discount or trivialize other people's comments in a rather flippant way, instead of addressing their concern or comment directly. Quote Here's my frustration with the conversation. See above. QuoteTHEN:Sure, lots of skin, cleavage, muted tones, black and white maybe, but no "money" shots...it's about the different sides of our skysisters, their ability to put together an amazing skydiving event, as well as be sensual, gentle, beautiful, erotic women. NOW:I am frustrated because someone thinks we're producing porn. I'm frustrated because someone else thinks we are objectifying women. I am frustrated because so many assumptions are being made, without any real basis to make them from. QuoteDo you have any idea how many hours we've thought about, discussed, tossed ideas around? Do you have any notion about the logistics and the planning that has already gone into this? How do you know what's going to be on the calendar? How do you know we are not planning something like that? Do you really think we haven't thought about a photo like that??? And tried to figure out how to handle that tastefully and discreetly? Yes I did think that you did not consider how your description of the calendar and the erotica photo you posted would be considered by women athletes and breast cancer survivors. You repeatedly said the calendar would have erotic aspects to it. I even referred to the calendar as an erotica calendar. You made no attempt to clarify any misconceptions that anyone might have had. Since you have so much work done already, what are the projected numbers for the calendar? What is the projected cost? What will you sell it for? Here's how those numbers can be used to follow the money trail. [These are example numbers that are approximately similar (mark up - wise) to promotional items sold in 2002.] Cost = $5 Sale price = $10 Percentage of Donor's Money that gets to the Charity: 1999 JFTC 990: 0.5 x 0.6 = .3 => 30 cents of every dollar 2002 JFTC 990: 0.5 x 0.7 = .39 => 35 cents of every dollar The .5 number is based on what the mark up was for similar promotional items at the 2002 JFTC. The .6 and .7 numbers come from the JFTC IRS 990 forms, available at GuideStar, and are a simple ratio of amount donated to the charity divided by total revenue. BTW. those ratios for JFTC are generally considered to be very good. The percentage of Donor's money from the sale of promotional items that makes it to the charity is very low. This is because of the third-party that is in the money trail. If a promotional item had a much larger markup, then the percentage of Donor's money that makes it to the charity could be 50% or more. [50% is generally considered the crossover point in evaluating charities. There are other factors to consider too.] Back to the easy number example- a $5 product sold for $20 would yield: percentage of donor's money to charity = .75 x .7 = .525 or 52 and a half cents of every dollar Quote Here's an idea. Let's all wait until we have the shots together, and the calendar is released, before you start being so critical of this. If you prejudge something, then perhaps you're selling the calendar short. That would be too late. The judgement is based upon statements you made and photos you posted. Perhaps, you might want a make a new sticky thread with photos that are representative of what you are doing and a clarification of the money trail. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #118 April 17, 2004 Thanks for sharing, Jan. Have a great weekend! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #119 April 17, 2004 Quotethese life-altering changes Quotemad as hell about what has happened to them. Jan, There are women taking an active role in producing this calendar that have gone through these"these life-altering changes". And they may be "mad as hell about what has happened to them". But then I have no idea how they fell and neither do you. You can't speak for these women anymore than I can. In fact, as a cancer survivor, I may be able to speak for them where you can't. No one is trying to degrade or belittle women, hell this whole project is being produced and directed by women for the benefit of women. Please give it a chance, you may be surprised.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #120 April 17, 2004 >Regardless of what anyone says, I think that a calendar composed > of pictures of women kicking ass in the sky, swooping, etc.. would > be awesome! Maybe include pictures of survivors who continue to > show their strength and beauty by participating in the extreme > sports or whatnot. Yet you are certain the calendar will not contain this? A lot of people seem angered by your posts, judging by the tone of their replies. Let me pose a parallel situation here for you: A bunch of women get together to jump and raise money to fight breast cancer. A whuffo reporter gets hold of this info and writes "I totally object. This is wrong, wrong, wrong. A bunch of women wants to raise money for breast cancer, and so they jump out of an airplane? Why do we want to send the message that people with breast cancer, or who fight breast cancer, are all suicidal? It's the wrong message, and it goes counter to everything true survivors do." The women of the JFTC might be annoyed by such a story, because they know that skydiving is not a suicidal behavior (even though people die on record attempts with some regularity.) They would probably think that the whuffo reporter is just blabbering on a subject she knows nothing about. They might react with anger, or they might invite her to the DZ so they can learn more about skydiving. Along the same vein, perhaps you might want to learn more about the calendar before deciding what you think is in it (or what isn't in it) and what your judgement on the imagined contents is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VanillaSkyGirl 6 #121 April 17, 2004 QuoteI think that a calendar composed of pictures of women kicking ass in the sky, swooping, etc.. would be awesome! Maybe include pictures of survivors who continue to show their strength and beauty by participating in the extreme sports or whatnot. I think that is a FABULOUS suggestion. I had the exact same thoughts. Perhaps the ladies working on the calendar have had this idea, as well. The cancer survivors could even be in black and white artistic shots. The cancer survivors could have the "This is me...here I am. I am still beautiful and ALIVE" attitude/look in there photos. Of course, Michele and the ladies have their own creative ideas. Personally, I have no problem with nudity in artistic photos. Nudity does not have to be sexual in nature. I have drawn completely nude people for many years now, and I love it. I have never once found it to sexual...quite the opposite, actually. Sexual pictures and sexuality can be just as easily shown with clothes on as seen in Maxim, etc. Yes, I do consider those mags to be "light porn", but I have NEVER considered any of my totally nude drawings to be pornographic in ANY way. The idea of showing nude, healthy breasts for a breast cancer calendar may be a little upseting to some people...in thought, but who knows what we will really feel when we see these pics. Maybe they will be beautiful nude shots of ladies' backs or legs or other body parts, maybe not. We don't know, yet. I strongly believe that everyone is entitled to their opinions. Since this calendar is representing women who skydive, many skydivers who are women seem to be worried that they/we may be misrepresented. I think that we should take a wait and see attitude. Some concerned posters may be trying to give suggestions or views of what may or may not be what they consider appropriate for this calendar, but, perhaps, when posting, some of these people are too abrasive. This is not a black mark against the co-chairs of the calendar or against the calendar in my eyes. Neither is it a negative thing to have some of these questions. Perhaps, we can all learn and grow from these discussions. Granted...these discussions have, at times, gone a bit out of control. This calendar is not about the ladies who are working on this calendar and their "morals", it is a JFTC calendar. The focus on this calendar is to raise money for this beautiful event in 2005, which is in the name of breast cancer research. Everyone should be focusing on that...keeping their eyes on the prize. I love that I have read such strong, yet opposing viewpoints. I believe that everyone here does have good intentions about the way that they all think that we as women should be portrayed. Thank you all for writing these well-thought posts. These posts have made me think even more about the cancer survivors and their strength and courage, as well as, the portrayal (media, and otherwise) of women, in general. I am still digesting and re-evaluating everything that I have read here from Jan, Michele, Angela, Bill, etc....all people whom I admire for different reasons. Peace to everyone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #122 April 17, 2004 Jan's post is valid. The intended content of the calendar seems to have changed - or possibly, more thought has been given to the content. I think that's a good thing. I believe the different perspectives offered here (although I also believe they should have remained in the women's forum under the original post) have made alot of us think. I don't think drawing nudes for art class and the study of the human form is at all what's being discussed here. Absolutely that is not about sexuality. But the dissecting and objectification of female body parts (showing backs, legs, necks, etc) for 'sensuality' or 'beauty' goes to the heart of why some have a problem with this calendar - for this cause. QuoteSome concerned posters may be trying to give suggestions or views of what may or may not be what they consider appropriate for this calendar, but, perhaps, when posting, some of these people are too abrasive. To me, that only shows the conviction of those posters. And the depth of this issue. This is not a mutual admiration society - it's a message board for skydivers. edited: rudeness is never conducive to communication The calendar of firemen analogy was interesting. And made me think. The difference is that men as a whole are not objectified to the extent that women are. I think a better analogy would be a calendar of men holding their bank statements. There is a 'message' sent everytime each of us does something. That can't be helped - we're social animals. Everytime we put something out there, it's being received. We owe it to ourselves, and to those we're 'speaking' for - to make sure we know what message we're sending. Mindfulness isn't weakness. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #123 April 17, 2004 QuoteQuote Excuwe me for butting in here, but isn't one of the primary sources of depression for post operative breast cancer survivors the appearance of their breasts? I just assume so since it would seem the majority of patients opt for cosmetic surgery. I think the depiction of breasts in a tasteful manner goes to the heart of the matter, does it not? Sexual stereotypes are ingrained into us from birth. The first question asked is 'Is it a boy or girl?' There are times when a social belief, that we have grown up with, is so familiar and so comfortable that we cannot see it for what it is. Maybe it is because we never question the values or implications. Kevin's post expresses the deeply ingrained sexual stereotyping of women and the 'value' for their looks or breasts or sex appeal etc. I've read many of his posts. This post was not done with any malice or deliberate intention to hurt anyone. The thought that a 'tasteful depiction of breasts' would help relieve depression is outrageous. Would a 'tasteful depiction of healthy arms and legs' relieve depression for someone that has just lost a limb? People that go thru these life-altering changes are mad as hell about what has happened to them. Wouldn't you be? They need to accept their new bodies as they are, not what society expects to see. Prosthetics may be used in public, but when you get into the shower each morning you have to come to terms with your body. Women are more than a pair of breasts. . I forgot to add that a tasteful depiction of mastectomy scars or missing limbs would be positive imagery. Years ago I saw a web site that showed the physical devastation of breast cancer. Women told their stories about the time and effort it took to accept them for what and who they were. It was a very powerful and moving site. Unfortunately, I cannot find the web site now. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #124 April 17, 2004 Quote Years ago I saw a web site that showed the physical devastation of breast cancer. Women told their stories about the time and effort it took to accept them for what and who they were. It was a very powerful and moving site. Unfortunately, I cannot find the web site now. I've seen similar sites, Jan, while researching the calendar. Canceranswers Click an image... Art Myers The first 4 images here are about breast cancer...same photographer as above (Art Myers) Sharon Seligmanscroll to the bottom (but don't miss the written items)... Breast Cancer of Canda Calendar The very last image, down at the bottom right, made me cry...and rejoice in suvivorship. Pictorial with Quotes Not exclusively breast cancer, but about cancer survivorship, nonetheless. Please note, some of these photos, while compelling and incredible, will not be appropriate for the calendar we are producing. And all of these sites have contributed to my personal vision of the calendar. This is not just a calendar of survivors, however, but of all of those who've been touched, affected, and committed ourselves to combating this illness. It also is about life, joy, happiness, beauty, love, friendship, and strength. And it's about skydiving. At this point, I have nothing further to add. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VanillaSkyGirl 6 #125 April 17, 2004 QuoteJan's post is valid. I have NEVER said that Jan's posts were not valid. I agree that this calendar and the intended content seem to be constantly be changing, which is a good thing and quite normal when undertaking such a project. Obviously, as I have stated before, this discussion is a good thing. I never said anything negative about Jan, and I support what she has to say as a woman. I don't know why you would think otherwise. QuoteI believe the different perspectives offered here...have made alot of us think. Then, you are agreeing with my original post because I wrote basically the same thing. QuoteI don't think drawing nudes for art class and the study of the human form is at all what's being discussed here. First, I never said that my art work was for "art class"(Otis Parsons was 10 years ago)...I sometimes draw in galleries at night with fellow artists. Anyway, I have no idea why I have to rehash this. Sigh...in my prior post, I was explaining how nudity in art does not have to be sexual, as we all know if we have ever visited a museum or opened an art history book, etc. Also, sexual pictures can certainly be taken with a clothed subject. My point was that nudity alone does not have to be sexual. I also hope that the nudity in the JFTC calendar is handled in a non-sexual manner, but I have no idea what the calendar is about exatly at this point. I will have to read Michele, Mar, Jen's updates to find out. I trust that everyone involved in this calendar is thinking about all the issues that we have been covering online. You quoted me...QuoteSome concerned posters may be trying to give suggestions or views of what may or may not be what they consider appropriate for this calendar, but, perhaps, when posting, some of these people are too abrasive. You answered...QuoteTo me, that only shows the conviction of those posters. And the depth of this issue. Freeflybella, do not take what I wrote out of context. I also wrote after that Quote Neither is it a negative thing to have some of these questions. Perhaps, we can all learn and grow from these discussions. You also wrote this. QuoteThis is not a mutual admiration society - it's a message board for skydivers. edited: rudeness is never conducive to communication Ugh...thanks for pointing that out, but I figured that one out a long time ago, my dear. I also know that people are more inclined to listen and respect each other if issues are discussed without it getting personal or without people taking things that others have written personally. I am not pointing fingers at ANYONE, so please don't misquote me or take what I have written out of context. Freeflybella, after reading what you wrote, I think that you and I are on the same page more or less. Reread my post. I also think that it's ironic that you chose to dissect MY post, in particular, then rewrite basically some of the same things...except for the "mindfulness isn't weakness" quote. I agree with that, as well, though. Sorry, I have nothing more to disagree with you about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
