Re: [Michele] JFTC ladies, please check in!

[misskriss 0]

I don't mind being called girl. I am a girl.. last time I checked I had a vagina. I also call my love a boy sometimes. When he's tired I ask him if he's a "sleepy boy." When he's frisky I ask him if he's a "horny boy.." LOL Men, women, boys, girls...it's all subjective. I'm not offended.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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Sure, lots of skin, cleavage, muted tones, black and white maybe, but no "money" shots...it's about the different sides of our skysisters, their ability to put together an amazing skydiving event, as well as be sensual, gentle, beautiful, erotic women.

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This is counter to the need to even do a Women's World Record in Skydiving or any sport for that matter.

A WWR is about raising the status of women in the entire sports arena. It is about giving credibility to a woman's athleticism. It is about changing the stereotypes that say women are weaker and less skilled. It is about demonstrating, through proven challenges, on the same level as men or mixed gender playing fields, that women have strength, courage, endurance and the will to set and follow their goals.

It is NOT about providing T&A bait.

I am absolutely positive that Sally Ride and Mary Ellen Weber would not see a 'sensual, seductive pose, revealing lots of cleavage' in their space suits as a positive image to their credibility as an astronaut or mission specialist.

After seeing this picture http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=25113; which is supposed to be representative of what the calendar will be like, I do agree that it does seem inappropriate. Especially to raise money for a cause such as breast cancer. Many of these women have lost their breasts due to cancer, and probably have self esteem issues due to that. I have to question the morality of selling a calendar composed of pictures of women's cleavage and other sexy photos, especially to raise money for this cause.

Additionally, just because a picture is a black and white does not mean it is not pornography. I think that this photo can absolutely be considered porn. I seem to recall reading that skydiving pictures will be also be a part of the calendar. Just because you throw in a few pictures of women skydiving next to the pornography, does not make the pornography any more appropriate here.

When this topic was first presented a while back, I thought I might like to participate. After really thinking about it, though, I don't feel this is right. I think it would be lovely to create and sell a calendar that promoted the idea of women being all they can be in the sports arena... but I don't think that a goodies calendar is appropriate to raise funds for something like breast cancer.

I have no problem with women showing their bodies. Women are beautiful. I just don't think that a fundraising calendar for breast cancer is the place for it.

jmo.
Angela.

[Zenister 0]

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I think that this photo can absolutely be considered porn.

damn remind me not to vote for you ifyou ever run for political office, ever... talk about prudish opinions.....

i guess pretty much every beach in the world (and a majority of fashion shows and black tie/dress dinners) are porno too?

yeeesh..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Michele 1]

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I have no problem with women showing their bodies. Women are beautiful. I just don't think that a fundraising calendar for breast cancer is the place for it.

As always, everyone is welcome to their opinion. Thanks for sharing yours.

You're welcome to question whatever you'd like, including my morality, but it remains what it is...a calendar that will raise funds for an incredible cause, and that I believe will be well received by the general public.

I hope your fundraising endeavors are as successful - or more so - than this promises to be. That would be absolutely wonderful.

Ciels and Pinks-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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As always, everyone is welcome to their opinion. Thanks for sharing yours.

:) Of course they are. And, you're welcome.

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I hope your fundraising endeavors are as successful - or more so - than this promises to be. That would be absolutely wonderful.

I am not involved in any fundraisers, as you're probably aware. Maybe i'm reading this wrong, but it seems you're attempting to make it seem ok to mock my opinion by pointing this out. I hope that is not the case.

I think that a fundraising calendar is a lovely idea. I just think it would be more appropriate if it were a calendar of the many beautiful women in our sport jumping, swooping, hanging at the dz,... showing what they're made of rather than what they're MADE of, if you know what I mean. I think it would be just as successful, maybe even more successful, and it would make for a dignified effort to raise funds for a what we all feel is a very worthy cause.

Just stating my opinion of course, I am not in any way trying to insult you, Michele.
:)
Angela.

[Michele 1]

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Maybe i'm reading this wrong, but it seems you're attempting to make it seem ok to mock my opinion by pointing this out. I hope that is not the case.

It's not. The discussion isn't about mocking someone's opinion. I made that remark because it's very easy to sit and criticize, but not so easy to get out there and do something. I don't mock. If I have a personal issue, mostly I take it to pm's, and try to work it out that way. I meant my post in all sincerity, Angela.

See, here's my thought.

What the girls and I plan on doing with this calendar may, to some, not be appropriate. It's totally all right with me that someone have a different idea and a different opinion. I honestly don't mind that at all.

I know that I will not be selling 25,000 calendars. That's fine. But the goal is to sell enough to make a difference. And I think we can make that goal.

If you can find a way that will make more money, or even some money, then I will be behind it 110%. Shoot, if our calendar flops (and it might...), then next go round I will be looking for something else to put my efforts behind.

But in the mean time, we are actively doing something about it. And having fun along the way.

As to the calendar itself, there is a huge misconception of what it will be like. I've done my best to explain what we're looking to do, and if people still want to have an opinion that miscatagorizes it, I can't do a thing about that.

All I can do, in the long run, is keep my eyes on the prize, see how this goes, and take it from there. We're moving forward with it, and we are all very excited with the positive response and support we've received worldwide.

I can't please everyone (and I gave up trying to do that a while ago ). What I can do is do my best, keep my integrity and morality intact, and see what happens. If we come back in a year and show how much $$ we have raised to go towards the cause, it *still* isn't going to change some folks' mind. But it may help find a cure for something that is devastating and that kills frequently.

And that, Angela, is fine. Don't you think?

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Just stating my opinion of course, I am not in any way trying to insult you, Michele.

I know that. The difficulty arises, honestly, when I have my integrity impugned, and when I have my morality challenged.

You (and others) have a different opinion about what is moral and dignified. I don't share that with you, but that's all right, isn't it?

I respect your right to not buy the calendar. Please respect my right to work as hard as I am to produce a calendar that you may not like, along with a group of highly motivated, incredible ladies and men who are contributing to this project.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Zenister 0]

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***. Maybe i'm reading this wrong, but it seems you're attempting to make it seem ok to mock my opinion by pointing this out. I hope that is not the case…......... I think it would be just as successful, maybe even more successful, and it would make for a dignified effort to raise funds for a what we all feel is a very worthy cause.

sort of like your implying that the way the calendar was originally explained is 'undignified'

sorry but i think your completely wrong as to how successful the calendar would be if it contained everyday dz pictures or everyday skydiving pictures that happened to have women in them..

like it or not breast cancer is a very physically debilitating disease, a calendar that celebrates the female form tastefully, not pornographically by your narrow definition of porno is very appropriate for the cause and will certainly have broader appeal than one that has pictures that will really only appeal to other skydivers and in many cases not even then..

as i asked before is it about 'Women who skydive' or 'Skydivers who are women' ?

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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sorry but i think your completely wrong as to how successful the calendar would be if it contained everyday dz pictures or everyday skydiving pictures that happened to have women in them..

I think that is sad. It is sad that people won't support a good cause by buying a calendar which shows the strength of women in our sport.

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by your narrow definition of porno

My narrow definition of pornographic photography is pictures that are meant to be oogled at in a sexual manner. I think that a picture of a women with half of her breasts showing, and her hand moving her shirt to reveal more is absolutely sexual.

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as i asked before is it about 'Women who skydive' or 'Skydivers who are women' ?

I have no idea what response you expect me to give you here.

Angela.

[SkydiveNFlorida 0]

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If you can find a way that will make more money, or even some money, then I will be behind it 110%. Shoot, if our calendar flops (and it might...), then next go round I will be looking for something else to put my efforts behind.

I understand that you want to raise money for this cause, and I completely respect that. I just happen to think it may not be the right way to go about it. Does this mean I need to start my own fundraising group in order to voice an opinion? I don't think it does. I respect the point you make, but I just think that I can feel that this is not right and make that known without feeling obligated to start my own calendar.

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As to the calendar itself, there is a huge misconception of what it will be like. I've done my best to explain what we're looking to do, and if people still want to have an opinion that miscatagorizes it, I can't do a thing about that.

I think that you most certainly have the opportunity to clear up any misconceptions. I just thought that that particular picture, meant to be representative of what you all are doing, seemed inappropriate.

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And that, Angela, is fine. Don't you think?

I think it's great that you're working to earn money for a good cause. I just don't think that creating a calendar containing sexually explicit pictures of women athletes is the best way to go about it. You have to weight the good/bad here. I understand that it is a good cause. But, I don't think that pictures such as that portray women athletes respectfully. . . which I think we should be.

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I respect your right to not buy the calendar. Please respect my right to work as hard as I am to produce a calendar that you may not like, along with a group of highly motivated, incredible ladies and men who are contributing to this project.

I am not stopping you. I am just voicing how things are seen from my point of view is all. I certainly wish you the best and hope that in the end it is a tasteful calendar AND raises money for breast cancer research. I think ultimately, it can be both.

Angela.

[Michele 1]

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I just don't think that creating a calendar containing sexually explicit pictures of women athletes is the best way to go about it. You have to weight the good/bad here.

You and I have a basic disagreement, then, because I do not think that the photos I put up - and those planned for the calendar - are "sexually explicit".

We have weighed the good and the bad, but thanks for cautioning us to do so.

In any event, you've been very clear about your opinion, and that's all right. I've been clear with mine. And that's all right, too.

You won't be changing my mind...and I don't think I will be changing yours. So all that's left is to say thanks again for sharing your opinion!

Ciels and Pinks-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Maybe i'm reading this wrong, but it seems you're attempting to make it seem ok to mock my opinion by pointing this out. I hope that is not the case.

It's not. The discussion isn't about mocking someone's opinion. I made that remark because it's very easy to sit and criticize, but not so easy to get out there and do something. I don't mock. If I have a personal issue, mostly I take it to pm's, and try to work it out that way. I meant my post in all sincerity, Angela.

What the girls and I plan on doing with this calendar may, to some, not be appropriate. It's totally all right with me that someone have a different idea and a different opinion. I honestly don't mind that at all.
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You (and others) have a different opinion about what is moral and dignified. I don't share that with you, but that's all right, isn't it?

Michelle I think that you and several others do not fully understand the objection to using erotic images or images that may even be considered pornographic by people to sell a woman's sporting event and breast cancer.

Let's consider the erotic type images. These images are indeed art and add to our lives in terms of sensuality. There is no objection (by me anyway) about these images in and of themselves.

The objection is when these images are used to promote women athletes breaking existing World Records and breast cancer fund raising.

Women have long searched for role models and have come up short. Today, a young girl can see Mia Hamm action shots in soccer. Not so long ago, girls were NOT allowed to play in Little League. Not so long ago, women were NOT allowed in the US military academies. [I suppose it's almost incredulous to younger people that women were denied access to some universities until 1976.] Today, there are women on the USAFA parachute team.

In the past 20 years alone, there have been tremendous progress made in opening doors to athletics to women.

Consider what women that have trained, practiced and competed for years might think about your pitch to sell her as erotica with a lot of cleavage. They worked long and hard to be the best at their sport. Someone comes along and wants to promote women 'for a good cause' with erotica that values her as a sexual object.

Consider a woman that may have had a double mastectomy when you make a pitch to sell her as erotica with a lot of cleavage. She is beautiful with those scars, but can only accept that after a long time of introspection, self-confidence building and body-image building. Women have other assets such as education, intellect, athleticism, family, careers etc that are just as important and worthy. Someone comes along and wants to promote women 'for a good cause' with erotica that values her as a sexual object.

The pinkwashing of America's corporations has come under criticism too.

There are examples of playing into female stereotypes, cooking, cleaning, cosmetics, but I have never seen anything so insensitive to women athletes and breast cancer survivors as your 'erotica' calendar in the name of a 'good cause'.

In the 1940s, one of every 20 women was stricken by breast cancer over a lifetime. Today, that rate has climbed to one in eight, over her life span. Chemicals in our environment are high on the suspect list for the cause of cancers. Many cosmetics, perfumes and deodorants have KNOWN carcinogens in them.

Think Before You Pink
Breast Cancer Action
Not Too Pretty

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Michele 1]

I am very aware of breast cancer, of the issues that women face (and men, too). I have held the hand of a woman dying of it. I have looked into her eyes and seen the havoc that cancer wrecked on her life. I am completely aware of what happens to a woman with cancer.

You and I have a different opinion. I'm not wrong, you're not wrong. Jan, I understand your opinion. I don't share it. And that's all right.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Zenister 0]

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My narrow definition of pornographic photography is pictures that are meant to be oogled at in a sexual manner. I think that a picture of a women with half of her breasts showing, and her hand moving her shirt to reveal more is absolutely sexual.

by your definition nearly every work of figurative art (male or female) is pornography.

that is a rather sad, uneducated point of view..

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as i asked before is it about 'Women who skydive' or 'Skydivers who are women' ?

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I have no idea what response you expect me to give you here.

do you not understand the difference in emphasis?

if already have 2 calenders of skydivers, (and i do) why would i want another?

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[TomAiello 26]

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I think that a picture of a women with half of her breasts showing, and her hand moving her shirt to reveal more is absolutely sexual.

How do you know which way, or even if, her hand is moving? I didn't detect any motion at all in the photo.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[billvon 3,080]

>My narrow definition of pornographic photography is pictures that
>are meant to be oogled at in a sexual manner.

Would that include women in skintight pink nylon suits?

[ladyskydiver 0]

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I think that this photo can absolutely be considered porn.

Angela,

The pictures that have been posted are quite tasteful and definitely not porn. Walk into an art museum one day and go look at the naked human form - both male and female. That is not porn just like this is not porn. This is celebrating women and their bodies.

If you want to see porn, I'll walk with you into a porn store and show you what porn is. There is a difference.

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...but I don't think that a goodies calendar is appropriate to raise funds for something like breast cancer.

If you've read the write up of the calendar, you will find that there are no "goodie" shots (referenced as money shots).

From what I've seen of the pictures, I would not hesitate to buy a copy for my mom (who would be horribly offended if it was porn). I know she'd love it. And, I will be buying a copy for myself at the minimum.

Not everyone will agree or like the choice of a calendar being made depicting women who are skydivers (note the way I phrased that), and that is ok. Everyone is entitled to their opinion - for the calendar, against the calendar, neutral, and anything in between.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[carbonezone 0]

NOTE: This Reply is not directed to anyone its just my 02.
If you dont like something on TV DONT WATCH IT!!
If you dont like a picture on a calendar DONT BUY IT!!
If you dont like something on the radio DONT LISTEN!!
I dont LIKE whats being said on this forum about a calendar that has NOT even been released yet. But I still check in and read it daily "its my choice"!
Its just that easy people "LIVE AND LET LIVE".....
If you do not think you will like the calendar dont buy it and donate your money to the JFTC other ways! But dont call the pictures PORN..... If these pictures are PORN then I must dress like a PORN STAR
I will be buying several calendars for: My husband, My Father, My Step Father and myself for MY office!!
""Freedom of Expression""
I am working towards Jump For The Cause 2005 and looking forward to it!!!
<>
Tami

[kaerock 1]

Here's a thought, not directed towards anyone in particular but...
The US government has what, trillions of dollars in reserve.
The Real Gross National Product of the United States last year was 9.9 trillion dollars.
The national income for the United States in 2003 was 8.5 trillion dollars.
The United States spent 471 billion dollars on defense (bombs, murder, death, et.al.) in 2003

How much money do you think a bunch of skydivers could raise from individuals and small businesses?

I think that these are small fish, people need to solicit those with billions of dollars to throw around, not individuals that are struggling to navigate a dog eat dog economy.

There's a larger picture here that people are not seeing, grass-roots fundraising is minimally effective compared to what the US government and corporations are capable of financially. I think people need to help each other out with what they can, but if money is required, let's hit up those who have the most of it, put the responsibility on them. They couldn't have gotten rich without us, they OWE it to us.

I say we take THEIR money, not each other's.

As far as the calendar goes, I've written it off as a T&A product, I'm sad to say. I do not think selling products showing skin is an acceptable means for supporting breast cancer research. It IS selling sex. A fully clothed woman can be posing suggestively...that IS sexual. When you sell something with images of women wearing suggestive clothing or poses, it's a T&A mag. JFC is not selling beer, it is not selling a car, it is not selling a dream of having a harem of women stand at someone's beck and call. I think the calendar undermines the intention of the creators.

-Rory

You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE

[carbonezone 0]

Then dont buy it!

Go do as your post says and get the big guys for funds!!

[skybytch 273]

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I think that these are small fish, people need to solicit those with billions of dollars to throw around, not individuals that are struggling to navigate a dog eat dog economy.

Do you think this hasn't been tried in the past? Have you ever tried soliciting a large corporation to support a skydiving event? A skydiving related charity event isn't like most other charity events - people die skydiving. Large corporations don't like it when their name is connected to something negative... like death.

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I think people need to help each other out with what they can, but if money is required, let's hit up those who have the most of it, put the responsibility on them. They couldn't have gotten rich without us, they OWE it to us.

I say we take THEIR money, not each other's.

I disagree. No one OWES any of us anything, regardless of how much money they have or how they got that money.

[TomAiello 26]

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No one OWES any of us anything, regardless of how much money they have or how they got that money.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Nightingale 0]

Well said! I absolutely agree with you!

[kaerock 1]

Support a skydiving event? I was talking about cancer research.

I care not about what corporations want. They often profit at the mercy of others, they should make up for it and help improve the quality of life rather than the size of their bankroll.

Yes, they DO owe us.

-Rory


reply]

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I think that these are small fish, people need to solicit those with billions of dollars to throw around, not individuals that are struggling to navigate a dog eat dog economy.

Do you think this hasn't been tried in the past? Have you ever tried soliciting a large corporation to support a skydiving event? A skydiving related charity event isn't like most other charity events - people die skydiving. Large corporations don't like it when their name is connected to something negative... like death.

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I think people need to help each other out with what they can, but if money is required, let's hit up those who have the most of it, put the responsibility on them. They couldn't have gotten rich without us, they OWE it to us.

I say we take THEIR money, not each other's.

I disagree. No one OWES any of us anything, regardless of how much money they have or how they got that money.

[Nightingale 0]

Corporations profit because they produce a product people need or want. They should not be penalized and have their profits garnished simply because they are successful. When you patronize a company, say... McDonalds... the only thing they owe you is what you purchased, your hamburger. Nothing more.

[freeflybella 0]

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When you patronize a company, say... McDonalds... the only thing they owe you is what you purchased, your hamburger. Nothing more.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAArrrrrgh!!!!!!!!!!

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi