School - Gun - Zero Tolerance

[benny 0]

Arbitrary sentencing guidelines and mandatory minimums, which are essentially what ZT amounts to, are hideous. The kid should have to pay a fine or something, but not expulsion. Of course, there are ameliorating circumstances in many situations involving more than just guns. The system as a whole has to change or none of us live in a just society.

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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I'm with you on most of that, but how do you think people would react if they had to political speech IDs, or if the press had to be federally licensed and every newspaper had to go through the rigors of the gun industry?

I'm sure people would react poorly...with the current pace the religious right is at to restrict indecency at the cost of our rights (Stern is saying the FCC is moving to have him massivly fined next week so Infinty is forced to pull him off all stations), maybe that isn't too far off. There may be nothing like that now - but you are responsible for what you say. If you threaten to kill someone, make a verbal threat against a government employee, or verbally abuse a person you can end up in court and on the wrong side of a lawsuit and/or prison bars.

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[for those who don't know, the FOID is the Firearms Owner IDentification card required by some states simply to own a gun; doesn't even grant carry status]
I got that acronym right, didn't I?

Yup, got it right on the first try. Since my legal address is inside Chicago, I cannot own a handgun with that FOID but I can own a hunting rifle.

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You and I are on the same page here. We need capable leaders with the flexability to work with kids who really can't operate in society.

It's scary when you meet a kid whose only answer to any problem is violence or abuse. They need help, not soundbites and catchphrases.

Wow, yet another person that I typically argue with on this board has agreed with me??? I'm running out of people to irk!

There are problems in society right now that most people don't want to admit to or don't know how to fix it - therefore they ignore it. The problems mentioned here are part of that - and I do know that most people would not want laws/legislation put in place to address these situations because it may directly effect their lives.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Kennedy 0]

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There may be nothing like that now - but you are responsible for what you say. If you threaten to kill someone, make a verbal threat against a government employee, or verbally abuse a person you can end up in court and on the wrong side of a lawsuit and/or prison bars.

That's why I, and 99% of gun owners out there, are all for strict enforcement of laws against committing crimes with guns. We like Project Exile. We like criminal control. Everything you can do wrong with a gun is already against the law. That's why I look at any new gun control law and ask where will you stop? Enforce laws on the books that punish bad acts. Stop looking into my closet and start looking into the courts.

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Yup, got it right on the first try. Since my legal address is inside Chicago, I cannot own a handgun with that FOID but I can own a hunting rifle.

Did you know Chicago took back top 'honors' from DC last year? Your city, which bans handguns, it the murder capital of the country. Gun Control at work, baby.

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There are problems in society right now that most people don't want to admit to or don't know how to fix it - therefore they ignore it. The problems mentioned here are part of that - and I do know that most people would not want laws/legislation put in place to address these situations because it may directly effect their lives.

Yup, heaven forbid we ask people to actually do something about the problems we all face.

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Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Kennedy 0]

Minimum sentences makes sense in some cases. Personally I prefer violent felons get at least a certain amount of time, rather than barter a better deal.

Zero Tolerance though, that just goes crazy. "The kids should have to pay a fine or something." What happened to detention? Make the kids come in on Saturday and work around the school if they really screw up. We don't need kids learning that early that authority figures are automatons, and cops are there to arrest them.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[skydyvr 0]

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...with the current pace the religious right is at to restrict indecency at the cost of our rights (Stern is saying the FCC is moving to have him massivly fined next week so Infinty is forced to pull him off all stations), maybe that isn't too far off.

It's far more people than just the "religious right" that wants Stern to clean up his act or get off the public airwaves.

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There are problems in society right now that most people don't want to admit to or don't know how to fix it - therefore they ignore it.

The FCC, backed by "most people" is trying to do just that -- fix it. Note your example above.

. . =(_8^(1)

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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The FCC, backed by "most people" is trying to do just that -- fix it. Note your example above.

Not trying to hijack this thread - but logic would say that a good portion of this country wants him on the air. One of the largest syndicated shows in the country, one of the largest listener bases in the country, some of the highest billable advertisments in syndication, ranks tops in most markets he is in - including the #1 radio market in the country, a successful movie, a couple successful books, and a TV show.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[billvon 3,111]

>I cannot be held responsible for bullshit policies that go into effect
> against MY vote.

That's sort of the definition of voluntarily living in a democracy (or a republic.) There are times when the elected officials will not be the people you vote for; that's something you have to accept if you want to live in a democracy.

[Zenister 0]

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>I cannot be held responsible for bullshit policies that go into effect
> against MY vote.

That's sort of the definition of voluntarily living in a democracy (or a republic.) There are times when the elected officials will not be the people you vote for; that's something you have to accept if you want to live in a democracy.

which is of course also the exact problem, as there is no mechanism to ensure that those who vote actually did any research, collected an information on the issues, or even bothered to look to see what policies the person they vote for really backs.

would you get on a plane where the pilot was elected by a democratic process?? i sure wouldnt, i dont know why we expect the mass to be any better informed to make a decision about who runs the country?

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[rmsmith 1]

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An upstanding 18-year-old California high school student had a new shotgun in the cab of his pickup truck, because he was going trap shooting with it after school.

The high schools in the rural area where I live have trap clubs. Two years ago, a young woman was among the top three contenders and received a trophy; her picture was front page stuff.

[sdgregory 0]

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>I cannot be held responsible for bullshit policies that go into effect
> against MY vote.

That's sort of the definition of voluntarily living in a democracy (or a republic.) There are times when the elected officials will not be the people you vote for; that's something you have to accept if you want to live in a democracy.

Yes I am aware of this. I am responding to Kallend's post saying that the people who voted for the elected officials who make poor policies that I do not agree with are to blame. I am saying I am not to blame since I am not the one who voted for these bozos that make these BS decisions and that I have every right to bitch since they were not who I voted for.

So Now I can blame everyone else.

[sdgregory 0]

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would you get on a plane where the pilot was elected by a democratic process?? i sure wouldnt, i dont know why we expect the mass to be any better informed to make a decision about who runs the country?

This is exactly why our forefathers actually wanted to limit the vote to landowners. They knew that, left to themselves, most people would just vote without ever gaining any credible information to base their stance on.

[SkydiverRick 0]

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The FCC, backed by "most people" is trying to do just that -- fix it. Note your example above.

Not trying to hijack this thread - but logic would say that a good portion of this country wants him on the air. One of the largest syndicated shows in the country, one of the largest listener bases in the country, some of the highest billable advertisments in syndication, ranks tops in most markets he is in - including the #1 radio market in the country, a successful movie, a couple successful books, and a TV show.

What percentage of the total population watches him? Ratings aren't a fair way to judge his popularity. Only people who watch TV during his time slot get to "vote".

never pull low......unless you are

[skydyvr 0]

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Not trying to hijack this thread - but logic would say that a good portion of this country wants him on the air. One of the largest syndicated shows in the country, one of the largest listener bases in the country, some of the highest billable advertisments in syndication, ranks tops in most markets he is in - including the #1 radio market in the country, a successful movie, a couple successful books, and a TV show.

Oh yes, Howard has a huge following -- in the millions -- but as a percentage of the total population it probably isn't that high.

. . =(_8^(1)

[billvon 3,111]

>I am saying I am not to blame since I am not the one who voted for
> these bozos that make these BS decisions and that I have every
> right to bitch since they were not who I voted for.

I'll definitely agree with you there; the right to bitch is a long-standing right of americans everywhere.

[billvon 3,111]

>would you get on a plane where the pilot was elected by a democratic process??

We obey regional directors who were elected by a democratic process. Most of the people who organize big loads are essentially elected by a democratic process (i.e. people decide whose loads to get on.) And I suspect if DZ's had elections for pilots, we'd vote for the most popular pilot and happily pile on his airplane.

>i sure wouldnt, i dont know why we expect the mass to be any better
>informed to make a decision about who runs the country?

It's a problem, but the alternatives (meritocracy, aristocracy, theocracy, communism) have even more problems. Any government that was significantly smarter/better informed/wiser than the average citizen would be wildly unpopular.

[Zenister 0]

ok as skydivers are at least minimally educated on the requirements of the job of a regional director and in many cases personally know the people they vote for...this is very nearly apples and oranges…democracy works very well on the small scale where everyone has common concerns, issues, and experiences however, the intent of my question was

would you be happy about being on a commercial airline where 200+ strangers, who you have no idea about their training, education, mental state, or opinions voted for to decide who was now responsible for your life for the next 4 hours?? And you had no real choice about getting off the aircraft prior to take off??

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Any government that was significantly smarter/better informed/wiser than the average citizen would be wildly unpopular.

exactly! our electorial system is a popularity contest, with leaders elected on largely superficial reasoning, it hasnt bitten us in the ass too badly but given the increasing ignorance of the average american, critical mass for empowered idiocy isnt too far off...

just look at the 'choices' we have already....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Kennedy 0]

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Any government that was significantly smarter/better informed/wiser than the average citizen would be wildly unpopular.

It scares me how true this is. People don't want leaders who will tell them what is best. They want to figure it out for themselves. I would say, therefore, that apathy is the strongest enemy of good democracy. If we educate and motivate voters, imagine the leaders who would be elected.

[and imagine how fast the two party system would crash and burn]

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

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would you be happy about being on a commercial airline where 200+ strangers, who you have no idea about their training, education, mental state, or opinions voted for to decide who was now responsible for your life for the next 4 hours?? And you had no real choice about getting off the aircraft prior to take off??

This is American Democracy in action, except the results last for four years instead of four hours.

"Howdy y'all, dis ere be's yer cappin tawkin..."

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[billvon 3,111]

>would you be happy about being on a commercial airline where 200+
> strangers, who you have no idea about their training, education,
> mental state, or opinions voted for to decide who was now
> responsible for your life for the next 4 hours??

I _do_ fly with pilots that I don't know, and I have no idea what sort of opinions they have or what their mental state is. All I have a reasonable assurance of is that they passed an ATP checkride. In government this would be the equivalent of a meritocracy - pass a test before you can be a politician.

But who writes the test? That's the $64,000 question. Bush would never pass a test that included questions about the environment; Gore would never pass a test on the history of sports teams. Which subjects get included? Who grades it?

>but given the increasing ignorance of the average american, critical
> mass for empowered idiocy isnt too far off...

I don't think we are any dumber or easier to manipulate than we were 200 years ago. There are just more of us.

[kallend 2,146]

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>would you be happy about being on a commercial airline where 200+
> strangers, who you have no idea about their training, education,
> mental state, or opinions voted for to decide who was now
> responsible for your life for the next 4 hours??

I _do_ fly with pilots that I don't know, and I have no idea what sort of opinions they have or what their mental state is. All I have a reasonable assurance of is that they passed an ATP checkride. In government this would be the equivalent of a meritocracy - pass a test before you can be a politician.

But who writes the test? That's the $64,000 question. Bush would never pass a test that included questions about the environment; Gore would never pass a test on the history of sports teams. Which subjects get included? Who grades it?

>but given the increasing ignorance of the average american, critical
> mass for empowered idiocy isnt too far off...

I don't think we are any dumber or easier to manipulate than we were 200 years ago. There are just more of us.

If you read the Federalist papers, it is clear that the reason for the Electoral College was that the elite of the time didn't trust the average citizen to make the "correct" choice for President.

But back to my point - don't blame educators for dumb school policies. Dumb policies come from the school boards, whose members generally are NOT educators.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Kennedy 0]

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I _do_ fly with pilots that I don't know, and I have no idea what sort of opinions they have or what their mental state is. All I have a reasonable assurance of is that they passed an ATP checkride. In government this would be the equivalent of a meritocracy - pass a test before you can be a politician.

So how would you feel about commerical flights if you were lined up with 200 other people and had to vote on who flies the plane? No check rides, no background evaluation, none of the thigns the FAA does with pilots, just go pick someone.

Would you board the plane?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[sdgregory 0]

Directed to kallend:

There you go again Doc-kallend. Saying something I totally agree with. Making sense. Of course you are stating fact not opinion.


Directed to non-one in particular:

Our forefathers definitely did not trust the masses to make the best decisions. The electoral college and the early attempts to restrict voting rights, the checks and balance system, all of it leaves very little real decision making in the hands of average Joe American.

Unfortunately, since so many people vote without study, research or even thinking, our system is getting more screwed up each election cycle. The exact thing our founders feared.

Welcome to the effects of the dumbing down of America.

[Kennedy 0]

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>I am saying I am not to blame since I am not the one who voted for
> these bozos that make these BS decisions and that I have every
> right to bitch since they were not who I voted for.

I'll definitely agree with you there; the right to bitch is a long-standing right of americans everywhere.

Yeah, it's when we stop bitching you really have to worry.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Amazon 7]

Gun thread.....



oh look... shiny things

[Kennedy 0]

be careful, or people might mistake you for b1jercat...

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*