It is Time for This Nonsense to Stop!

[bellyboy 0]

"And have to _think_ about it? Too much trouble. "

Quite so - unfortunately we're in the minority here , as skydivers we've already made a decision to be free . I very much doubt there are fora in many other places where such a wide ranging set of opinions can be shared without violence or threat thereof.

I doubt the removal of any reference to 'god' would make the pledge of allegiance any less grave - Andyman , I fuly support your view that the whole concept is Orwellian but the removal of just one trifling detail is causing quite a stir , one step at a time . Perhaps after a few more international financial crises and the massive depression we're headed towards the people of the US will realize that whilst globalization as it currently stands is repellent , we can nevertheless forge a more globally coherent future in which nationalism is regarded more as an affinity towards one baseball team over another than membership of rival gangs.

Nationalism and religion , strangely similar at the moment , seemingly membership of more than one gang is impossible , fights break out that way.

[Sinkster 0]

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Yet even a bunch of skydivers seem to find the time to argue about something so completely unimportant.

You're kidding right? What most people don't realize is that God has everything to do with the justification for our individual rights and the laws that protect us. I don't think there are very many people who can provide a *rational* justification for individual rights without appealing to God that doesn't reduce the notion of justice and rights to some sort of function which then undermines the notion of justice itself.

Kant had one idea, for example, based on the notion of humans as the ultimate valuers in the universe which means that we must have unconditional worth ourselves in order for us to be able to truly imbue value upon anything. (which still ultimately needed God for other reasons). So people, at least think for yourselves why you believe what you believe and how you can justify it, and if you can't--consider why!

(for example, consider why is it that people even feel they have a right to be 'free'. is it just because the government is supposed to allows us to do certain things? WHY is it supposed to? is it because we are meant to live free, and if so WHY?)

In any case, my main point is that issues like these are actually important for some of us and for good reason. While I will not despair in myself when such rulings are made for my God will always be with me regardless of the state of those around me, it is sad to see our nation destroying the very foundation that justifies and upholds our freedoms.

In other words, without "one nation, under God", there will never truly be " liberty and justice for all".

I've said it before and I will say it again "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men..."

[rgoper 0]

man, what a subject, and yet one which each and every individual is entitled to their own beliefs. having said that, NO ONE should be flamed or retorted for their beliefs, whatever they are.

there was only one man that was perfect while on earth, and we crucified him for his efforts.

a question was asked after the columbine school shootings "why would god allow this to happen" god's response "i haven't been allowed in that school in years" of course this is partially hypothetical, but food for provacative thoughts.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[quade 4]

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"i haven't been allowed in that school in years"

So then you subscribe to a pretty vengeful God, don't you?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[bellyboy 0]

Sinkster,

Loving your input here - you're commited to your beliefs and that's great. I believe in a creator too , I just don't call it 'god'. I agree with a lot of what you've said , and I can still agre with the removal of the 'under god' bit .

I'm a firm believer in the segragation of church and state , the foundation of freedom cannot be contained under one religious roof , or even under all religious banners collectively - all animals desire freedom , we however have devised means to secure a level of freedom (not absolute by any means) for our offspring and their offspring . Is that a function of a particular religion?

I still think we've got the best one - Yahu! Only joking....

[rgoper 0]

**So then you subscribe to a pretty vengeful God, don't you?**

careful of the words and phrases you use today, tomorrow may just be the day of reconing. god, vengeful? i don't think so, but as i said at the onset of this post, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, WITHOUT having to be criticized for it. it's a free country, let's not distort that in any way if we can help it. your opinion is just that, yours, mine is mine, and mine only. do i believe in god, YES, am i ashamed to admit it? NO, will i EVER deny his existance? NO. do i always live according to his will, of course not, as i said, there's only one perfect individual that existed on earth, and we crucified him for his efforts, and to that individual, you owe your soul to, regardless of personal beliefs.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[skydivehigh 0]

Next time some f*cked up kid brings a gun to school and starts shooting everybody up, let's make sure no one openly prays to God for help, it might offend a "non-believer"....

I wonder how many "non-believers" in the twin towers suddenly found God when they knew death was moments away......

I wonder who a "non-believer" prays to when their child has been kidnapped or is laying in I.C.U......

I know there is one God and I can't wait to go home and be with him.

I'm still gonna pull though.....

Bob

[hobbes4star 0]

can anyone tell me why the little icon is on fire???

if fun were easy it wouldn't be worth having, right?

[rgoper 0]

obviously a "hot topic" which it is. america, land of the free, home of the brave. in the name of god, we trust?

each of us is entitled to our own beliefs, you CANNOT convince a non-believer to believe, nor a believer to not believe. so there's no sense in trying, i'm satisfied that i can believe what i want, when i want, and where i want, and with whom i want, that's what our forefathers fought for, and now our sons and daughters.

my father (ex-marine saergeant) always told me "i may not agree with everything you say, but i'll fight to the death, your right to say it" words i've lived by all of my life, i'll continue to improvise!

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[hobbes4star 0]

very well said

if fun were easy it wouldn't be worth having, right?

[Muenkel 0]

I don't see God as a vengeful God, but as a merciful God.

Anyway, the bottom line is, there is only one truth and us little humans are trying to figure out which is right. Somehow we have ended up with millions of different opinions on what is truth and what isn't. I know one thing for sure, I am going to die one day. I just hope at that moment, if I meet God, and I do believe I will, I will be at peace with Him.

Being a Catholic, I feel very strongly about defending my faith these days and having the guts to stand up for it. Catholic bashing has become acceptable in society and for very good reason. Many of our leaders have not set the true "Catholic" example. I think the ones that have the real guts are the good priests who never molested anyone, never covered it up and still have the courage to wear the collar. I admire that.

_________________________________________
Chris

[billvon 3,098]

>Anyway, the bottom line is, there is only one truth and us little
> humans are trying to figure out which is right.

I don't think so. There are laws of physics that say, essentially, you cannot know the entire truth; there is often more than one valid truth; and even your attempt to discover the truth changes it. I think there's a lesson in that for us. The best you can do is find your own truth, your own system of morals, beliefs and behaviors that works for you. I will never believe in the image of a god that is essentially a grumpy old man, who metes out life, death and afterlife according to some very odd (and apparently constantly changing) rules and wants us to pray to him in a certain way, and who will exclude all those who disbelieve. That just seems way too close to the god that an agnostic society that desperately needed to believe in something would create.

[AggieDave 6]

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and apparently constantly changing)

That's not what the Bible says, you've just got caught up in different religous group's rhetoric. Infact most of the last half of your post in which you describe how you see God does not follow what the Bible describes him as, just as what some social conventions that have nothing to do with real Christianity and some "religous" (note: religous, *not* Christian) people portray him as.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Muenkel 0]

Bill,

How can you find your "own" truth? I guess I can't think that highly of myself. I have to believe there is a greater power than me. If there isn't, God or whomever help us!!!

My image of God is certainly not of a grumpy old man but rather a merciful and unconditionally loving God.

_________________________________________
Chris

[hobbes4star 0]

>My image of God is certainly not of a grumpy old man but rather a merciful and unconditionally loving God. <

if this god is so merciful why in every religion is their a hell??

if fun were easy it wouldn't be worth having, right?

[billvon 3,098]

>How can you find your "own" truth?

You said it yourself - live in such a way that you are at peace with yourself. If you find a way to live that lets you live at peace with yourself (and eventually die that way) you have found your own truth.

Even adherents of exactly the same religion and sect often find wildly different truths. Soldiers who go marching into battle to kill in the name of the lord have found a different truth than people who work for peace, even though their religions may be identical.

>I have to believe there is a greater power than me. If there
> isn't, God or whomever help us!!!

That would be true even without a god; there is always a greater power, and it's usually one we create ourselves. But what's more important is how you live your life, and whether the life you live is true to your beliefs and morals. You can be the most religious guy in the world and be miserable; you can be agnostic and be at peace.

>My image of God is certainly not of a grumpy old man but rather a
>merciful and unconditionally loving God.

I have trouble with the idea that god is a lot like us, that the term "merciful" would have any meaning. Since the beginning of time we've ascribed human emotions to god - heck, he got mad and turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt for looking at something! Personally I think that's pretty demeaning to the whole concept of god, sort of like a mythical dog society deciding that god was leader of the pack and let another dog always have the meat. That's a dog image of god; we've created a human image. There is truth in there somewhere, but it's hidden way behind the image of a sort of superman-human god we've created.

[skybytch 273]

I really, really tried to stay out of this one...

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How can you find your "own" truth? I guess I can't think that highly of myself. I have to believe there is a greater power than me. If there isn't, God or whomever help us!!!

Everyone finds their "own" truth. Your version (meaning the Catholic version) of the "truth" differs from the "truth" espoused by the Baptists, which differs from the "truth" put forth by the Jews, which differs from the "truth" subscribed to by the Muslims, etc, etc. And yet each of these "organized religions" insists that their way is the only way to get to "God".

My version of the "truth" is quite a bit different from all of the above; I choose not to be evangelistic about it and generally don't discuss spiritual matters with anyone, regardless of which "truth" they choose to follow.

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My image of God is certainly not of a grumpy old man but rather a merciful and unconditionally loving God.

Having read both the Old and New Testaments, I have to disagree with this one. To me a "merciful and unconditionally loving" God would not ask his followers to murder other human beings or rape virgins. I'm not at home right now so I can't pull out a copy of the Bible to quote verses to you.. but if you've read it, you know what I'm talking about.

[jimjumper 25]

Just for info. the phrase "In God We Trust" on our currency and coinage was first used on the 2 cent piece in 1864 and has been used since on all currency and coins.

[quade 4]

That's not exactly correct.

The two-cent coin minted between 1864 and 1873, was the first coin to bear the motto "In God We Trust".

Legislation approved July 11, 1955, made the inscription of “In God We Trust” mandatory on all coins and paper currency of the United States. Legislation approved July 30, 1956, made “In God We Trust” the national motto of the United States.

Source; http://usmint.gov/faqs/index.cfm?action=FAQSearchResult

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[cloud9 0]

***It's not that the mentioning of God is offensive, it's WHO is mentioning God that is.

Declaration of Independence

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,

Oh look now the Declaration of Independence is unconstitutional! Our forefathers pryed before all of their meetings while writing the constitution and some times even during. They never intended to take God out of our government. The intent was that a single religion would not run our government. Liberals have been trying for years to twist the words of our constitution, this time it won't work! People are finally tired of the fanaticle left wing!

If the framers of the constitution did it, then it was not intended to be unconstitutional!

[Muenkel 0]

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Everyone finds their "own" truth. Your version (meaning the Catholic version) of the "truth" differs from the "truth" espoused by the Baptists, which differs from the "truth" put forth by the Jews, which differs from the "truth" subscribed to by the Muslims, etc, etc. And yet each of these "organized religions" insists that their way is the only way to get to "God".

My version of the "truth" is quite a bit different from all of the above; I choose not to be evangelistic about it and generally don't discuss spiritual matters with anyone, regardless of which "truth" they choose to follow.

I totally agree with this statement. Just because I am Catholic, I would not say I am the one who has the truth. I believe only God has the truth. I relate to Catholicism because it is the faith I grew up in, relate to and makes the most sense to me.

I admire your private spirituality. I do believe people can be so preachy they actually get distracted from what they truly believe in. Contemplation and meditation is very powerful...just ask the Buddhists.

BTW Lisa, I was always taught that if you wanted to avoid confrontation, there are two topics to stay away from....Religion and Politics! So you're smart having a private spirituality. You probably live a much more peaceful life.

_________________________________________
Chris

[quade 4]

Hey, guess what? The Declaration of Independance, while a significant document, is not the the basis of the U.S. Government. It was the basis for our separation from England and the Church of England.

However, the U.S. Government begins with the U.S. Consititution.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SBS 0]

I know there is one God and I can't wait to go home and be with him.
-----------------
I'm not saying that there is or isn't...to say that you KNOW, though, is pretty bold, and pretty impossible. It is a belief until it can be proven fact, and if it had been proven fact, we wouldn't have wars over religion.

Secondly, I hope that if there is a god that one day I am with him as well. At the same time, though, there have been something like 2500 gods in world religions over the centuries. I find it strange that someone could be part of a religion that preaches humility, yet say that they KNOW which god is the right one, and they know him and his nature on top of that. I do not mean this as a personal attack, as it is something that I see in most all organized religion...it's just not consistant.

--------------------------
One says this:

I don't see God as a vengeful God, but as a merciful God.

And then says this:

How can you find your "own" truth? I guess I can't think that highly of myself.

------------------------

How is it that someone cannot think that highly of themselves, but make a statement that they KNOW, not only does god exist, but they know the nature of god? Again, this just doesn't seem consistant.

The attitudes that lead to religion building walls between people and causing death and wars is that people take their beliefs and lose sight of the fact that they are merely beliefs...they believe that they believe them because they are the truth. It goes back to the philosophical saying, "you may know, but you don't know that you know".

I think Mere Christianity is a good book for every Christian to read and consider. CS Lewis is well respected in this field of study, and even he made the statement that Christians, even if correct, would not necessarily be the only ones in heaven, as far as he was concerned. That completely undermines what is held so highly in the Christian church today, that salvation comes soley from the acceptance of Christ. Again, an inconsistancy.

I was told a couple of months ago by a Christian, "The devil hides some truth in every lie." What I found interesting was that he applied that to my words, but not his own. So, I answered him with a question, "How do you know that Satan didn't orchestrate the bible?"

If there is a god, and he happens to be all loving, it is deeper than a book, and more profound than saying a prayer. It's a way of life.

Whether it is God, Buddah, or whatever up there, if there is anything at all, regardless, the government does not have the right to impose their beliefs upon us. That is the contract that they wrote themselves, it is not being pushed on them now. They chose to create this country for a reason, and by requiring anyone to say "under god" they are in direct violation of their own contract with the people. I, personally, am not bothered by it. I don't think that it is that important. At the same time, though, there are people to whom it is very important, and we have to respect that. Even if we don't think it's worth raising a stink, they have been given the right to do so.

Steve

_____________
I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[Muenkel 0]

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if this god is so merciful why in every religion is their a hell??

This is an extremely intelligent question and one that has been asked probably a billion times. Unfortunately it is so complex that a schooled theologian would be needed to answer it. I have my thoughts, but I will pass for now. HH does not have enough bandwidth to cover this one.

_________________________________________
Chris

[Muenkel 0]

Quote

One says this:

I don't see God as a vengeful God, but as a merciful God.

And then says this:

How can you find your "own" truth? I guess I can't think that highly of myself.

------------------------

How is it that someone cannot think that highly of themselves, but make a statement that they KNOW, not only does god exist, but they know the nature of god? Again, this just doesn't seem consistant.

Hey SBS, I think you have two different people mixed up here. I made the quote, but I never said I "KNOW" that God exists, nor do I know the nature of him.

It's not that I don't think highly of myself, it's just that I believe God is far greater than me and knows the eternal truth. I am just a human with faults. I cannot compare to God or whoever is the creator of the universe. That is what I meant by saying "I just can't think that highly of myself".

As for the person who may have said they "KNOW" God exists and the nature of him (I did not go back and search all the posts), I have to wonder about private revelation. How do we know certain people have not been given private revelation in regard to the existence of God and of his nature?

_________________________________________
Chris