It is Time for This Nonsense to Stop!

[Sinkster 0]

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I agree with the second statement, and I agree that your God may very well exist, but these two statements are contradictory.

It is true that in matters of faith one cannot prove the object of that faith or else it would be faith no more.

However, that does not make my statement contradictory. Irrational? Yes. Absurd? Yes. But still, I am certain that God exists and have faith in Him.

-Sinkster

"The present generation, wearied by its chimerical efforts, relapses into complete indolence. Its condition is that of a man who has only fallen asleep towards morning: first of all come great dreams, then a feeling of laziness, and finally a witty or clever excuse for remaining in bed." -Soren Kierkegaard

[freebird 0]

All I can say is I think most people are sad about this decsion.......It lowers moral...........I have my daughter in a private school Why? you may ask....this is an example of why she is better offf in a private school...........

[PhillyKev 0]

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I have my daughter in a private school Why? you may ask....this is an example of why she is better offf in a private school.........

You absolutely have the prerogative of sending your child to a private school that teaches the beliefs that you adhere to. However, for those in public school, where you are REQUIRED to go by law there should not be any religious belief or ceremony forced upon the children. They should be exposed to it, educated about it and given the choice and freedom to decide on their own. I'm fully in favor of teaching both evolution and creationism in public school. Allowing children to pray on their own, or in voluntary groups is fine. As long as one isn't forced into believing one or the other or participating in these prayers. If you want to make that choice for your child and send them to a school that only teaches one belief, that's your right. But don't force my kid to go there. Which is exactly what is done by including these MANDATORY activities in public school. Let kids believe what they want or what they are taught by their parents. But public school is not the place to be teaching morals or religion except from an independent perspective on how they shape society and history. It's a place to learn math, english, science, etc. It's up to parents to teach the morals and beliefs that they think are right.

[gemini 0]

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Which is exactly what is done by including these MANDATORY activities in public school. Let kids believe what they want or what they are taught by their parents. But public school is not the place to be teaching morals or religion ....It's up to parents to teach the morals and beliefs that they think are right.

You are absolutly right, except that we have a problem in this country of a lot of children not being taught anything by their parents except how to beat the system, lie, steal and cheat. These kids have no morals values, are not disciplined, and do not value life. The chances of them becoming productive citizens is almost nil. Face it folks, the parents are not doing the job either!

And you want your kid sitting next to these angels 6 or 7 hours a day? Good luck.

Blue skies,

Jim

[scottbre 0]

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we have a problem in this country of a lot of children not being taught anything by their parents except how to beat the system, lie, steal and cheat

Good point. I think you should have to have a license to have a child. And it hasn't to be harder to get than a driver's license too. Any idiot can get a driver's license and still not know how to drive.

Any thoughts?

"Your mother's full of stupidjuice!"
My Art Project

[gemini 0]

I don't know when Red Skelton did this. There was no date, but I thought his quote at the bottom showed a lot of insight by him even if he thought it could never happen.

As a schoolboy, one of Red Skelton's teachers explained the words and meaning of the Pledge of Allegiance to his class. Skelton later wrote down, and eventually recorded, his recollection of this lecture. It is followed by an observation of his own.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I - - Me; an individual; a committee of one.
Pledge - - Dedicate all of my worldly goods to give without self-pity.

Allegiance - - My love and my devotion.

To the Flag - - Our standard; Old Glory ; a symbol of Freedom; wherever she waves there is respect, because your loyalty has given her a dignity that shouts, Freedom is everybody's job.

United - - That means that we have all come together.

States - - Individual communities that have united into forty-eight great states. Forty-eight individual communities with pride and dignity and purpose. All divided with imaginary boundaries, yet united to a common purpose, and that is love for country.

And to the Republic - - Republic--a state in which sovereign power is invested in representatives chosen by the people to govern. And government is the people; and it's from the people to the leaders, not from the leaders to the people.

For which it stands

One Nation - - One Nation--meaning, so blessed by God.

Indivisible - - Incapable of being divided.

With Liberty - - Which is Freedom; the right of power to live one's own life, without threats, fear, or some sort of retaliation.

And Justice - - The principle, or qualities, of dealing fairly with others.

For All - - For All--which means, boys and girls, it's as much your country as it is mine.


And now, boys and girls, let me hear you recite the Pledge of Allegiance:
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands; one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country, and two words have been added to the Pledge of Allegiance: Under God.

Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer, and that would be eliminated from schools, too?
Red Skelton

Blue skies,

Jim

[JDBoston 0]

That may be true, but religion is BY NO MEANS a necessary component of a moral life. Many religious people are also highly moral and do a good job of bringing their kids up. That's fine - many non-religious people are the same way. Maybe on another thread we can discuss Catholic schools and priests. Religion and morals are NOT EVER the same thing.

And when religion mixes with public policy, it's a bad thing. The people in control no longer have to justify, account for, or explain the benefits of the laws they pass or the actions they take. They simply do what benefits them, or what they want to, and explain it away with assertions that can't be debated except by theologians.

Religion is a very fine thing on a personal & family level, but it has also been used as a very convenient shield for atrocities, repression, and personal depravity, in varying degrees, in nearly every historical situation I'm aware of where it managed to get its claws into public institutions. Look at the Crusades, the Islamic states, Israel/Palestine, etc. I don't think any of those periods/regions suffer(ed) from TOO LITTLE involvement of religion in public life.

Perhaps people with more knowledge of history than me can chime in here with some counter-examples from the last few centuries? I'd be interested in hearing about them.

Joe

[Satan666 0]

""Look at the Crusades, the Islamic states, Israel/Palestine, etc. I don't think any of those periods/regions suffer(ed)""

-----Religion is the root of all Evil-----

[gemini 0]

Hey Scott!

My feeling is that it is not necessarily religion that is the cause, but man. A good example is Islam. If you read the Koran there is a lot of stuff about taking care of others, not killing non-combatants or unarmed soldiers, etc. You are absolutly right though, people will use religion as an excuse to do some really unexcusable things that actually defile the religion they are professing to support. The evil is in man. Religion is man's attempt to explain the unknown or those things of which he is afraid.

History: And don't forget the inquisition and catholic purges that forced many to flee to the new continent.

Blue skies,

Jim

[quade 4]

Hmmm, not really sure I want to take a lot of politcal advise from Red even if Red was a very devout man. I realize "The Big Fat Idiot" (aka Rush) has been giving Red a lot of airplay this week since the decission, but Red also glamorized the hobo & drunken bum lifestyle -- I'm not even going into his strange facination with seagulls.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[gemini 0]

Good point! I had forgotten that I always thought there was something wrong with him when I was a kid. He was funny, but not quite right. I am sure he made the quote as part of a joke never realizing where we would be today.

Blue skies,

Jim

[billvon 3,107]

>You are absolutly right, except that we have a problem in this
> country of a lot of children not being taught anything by their
> parents except how to beat the system, lie, steal and cheat.

I agree. However, you cannot use the government to replace parenting, and I think it is a huge mistake to even try - because then it is the government's morals, ideals and yes, even religion that gets passed on (even if it is a purely secular religion.) Nothing can replace parenting; after all, that is where 90% of any child's education comes from. Learning about the Battle of Hastings is nothing compared to learning right from wrong.

[billvon 3,107]

>Good point. I think you should have to have a license to have a
> child.

Forget a license. You should just have to do something, anything, in order to get pregnant (beyond the obvious.) Sterilize everyone and sell anti-birth-control pills. Heck, give them out for free. Just changing the system so most kids are really wanted, rather than suprises or accidents, would make a huge difference.

[quade 4]

Well, I've heard with my own ears the Red quote and I do truly believe he was serious. Of course, this was also the late 50s and early 60s and anti-commie stuff which is where this entire conversation began anyway.

I do remember that at the close of every show he'd come out and thank the audience and say "God bless", which even as a child I thought was pretty sincere and even touching.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,107]

>I'm not even going into his strange facination with seagulls.

Wasn't that Richard Bach?

[freebird 0]

there are other avantages that she will have in this school ...since I have the advantage to put her in a private school........ I think she will be better off........I made this decision two years ago.(thats how long the waiting list was ) Sne had to pass a hard teat to get in...it was hard work..but now Im even more happy she is in.............

[quade 4]

Both. Although I have to say I'd rather aspire to be like Johnathan Livingston Seagull than either Gertrude or Heathcliff.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[PhillyKev 0]

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Both. Although I have to say I'd rather aspire to be like Johnathan Livingston Seagull than either Gertrude or Heathcliff.

Man, what a bunch of hippies. I haven't heard anyone make a Richard Bach reference since Jerry Garcia died

[freebird 0]

When I wa sin school ( public elementray school) We would sing a song about America then Look at the Flag and say the Pledge and then have a Prayer or a quiet moment. Im thinking the (quiet moment was for those who choose not to pray...Whats wrong with that.give choices.......Now we have our own government telling us we can not say our own Pledge? Sounds like a dictatorship.let the kids that choose to live in America (but are offended by the pledge) leave the room for a "quiet moment".....

[Sebazz1 2]

For two years I went to an all boys catholic high school before finishing in a public highschool. The Catholic benadictine monks knew that I was not from a religious upbringing but needed me for their tennis team. So I would sit quietly as most people chanted that "are father who art in heaven" before every class. I didn't mind and nobody minded that I did not chant with them. I was just taking advantage of the education. Public and Private schools each have there positives and negatives. At least in Public school they don't shove god down your throat. Just small refrences like in the anthem should be no big deal. It should be no big deal anyway.

[PhillyKev 0]

Do you remember school? How ostrisized do you think a 10 year old would feel if he had to leave the room every day and "be different" then everyone else. No, wouldn't be anyone picking on him at recess.

No offense, but your rationale seems to be way off base. First of all, kids don't "choose" to live in America. They are born here or brought here by their parents. Secondly, no one said anything about being offended by the pledge, rather the religious reference.

There's been a lot of argument that the country was founded on christianity, etc. and so it's proper for the pledge to have that reference in it. But I think you're all missing the point, at least from my view. I'm not offended that the pledge has a reference to god, and I have no problem reciting it. If I had children, even though I'm not a Christian, I wouldn't tell them that they can't say it when they go to school. What is offensive to me is that public institutions that children are legally mandated to attend REQUIRE that you say it. In my eyes that's no different than forcing a jew to pray to Jesus, or a christian to face mecca and pray to Allah.

Freebird, how would you feel if you found out that your school was suddenly requiring your daughter to recite a poem every morning that praised Zeus?

[freebird 0]

I think that you should be a little nicer with the post replys if you want to make me look stupid send me a pm..............What about the kids that live here.the kids who have parents and grand parents that have always lived here ..........we do not need people that do not believe in god making the decsions why do they get the advantage?

[PhillyKev 0]

Sorry...didn't mean to offend you. Don't think you're stupid or trying to make you look that way. Noones opinion could ever be legitimately called stupid. An opinion is just what it is, I was just pointing out that mine is different than yours.

Personally, I think we do need people who don't believe in god making the decisions. Or at least people who don't let their belief in god influence how they run government in a way that would effect citizens one way or another based on their belief. And that's what our constitution guarantees us.

[billvon 3,107]

>What is offensive to me is that public institutions that children are
> legally mandated to attend REQUIRE that you say it.

1. You are not legally mandated to attend it, or have your children attend. If you want to send your child somewhere else, or even teach him/her yourself, you are free to do that. It is _your_ decision, not the government's.

2. If it bothers him/her, they don't have to say it. I have never, ever heard of anyone expelled (or even hassled) because they would not say the words "under god."

>Freebird, how would you feel if you found out that your school was
> suddenly requiring your daughter to recite a poem every morning
> that praised Zeus?

Schools do that. They require kids to memorize and recite things, and they often contain references to god. Heck, in elementary school we had to sing christmas and chanukah songs around christmas time. Every year there was one parent who didn't want their kid singing in some song or other, and they sat out that song. It was never a big deal.

Like Sebazz, I went to an all-catholic high school. One of my friends, Uneal, was Hindu. He was there for the education. They'd have mass every once in a while, and Uneal would just go and sit in the back. He never cared; it was just part of life at a catholic school.

[freebird 0]

(what if my daughter had to pray to allah or zeus)That is exactly why Im even more excited she is going to a private christan school....MY choice to send my child to that school....when she is 18 she can make her own choices............Why can't we say the pledge and each pearson refer to whatever they believe....one nation under god......one nation under the force.....whatever................