front riser noob stuff

[sparkie 0]

for the B licence canopy reqs one must do some front riser turns. I've been playing with fronts a bit but when I pulled one one the fronts of my canopy just buffeted (on the side where i pulled) and not really doing any turning (kind of like what you get in turbulence). (I fly a pilot 210 @ a staggering 1,05 load or so)

Is there a technique like pulling more or faster or is my canopy just too big or something?

When I get around to it Ill ask one of the cracks / instructors at my DZ, but I live in Holland = shitty weather and need to know now coz I'm bored.

(PS sorry for the msn talk but its hard to type all letters when using an expert two finger system. Yes I'm lazy)

[piisfish 140]

maybe your brake lines are too short and thus you are braking while pulling th eriser, inducing that buffeting.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[billvon 3,107]

Make sure that when you pull down the front riser your brake lines are NOT taut. There should still be some bow in them.

[dragon2 2]

AFAIK you will not be able to do that particular B requirement anyway, don't know who came up with the 3x360 left and 3x360 right requirement (in succession!!).... I can do it on my Diablo now, I think, but with a big canopy, only if the 360's are around Twello

Very probably your brake lines are too short. Is it your own gear? Or rental from Case?

Anyway, just come to Teuge, you can always play poker

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[dharma1976 0]

try throwing some body english into it...man I need to get out and rent a sabre2 190 from the local gear shop and see if I can do anythign with it

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[kelpdiver 2]

with the dive loops on the wings supplied risers, I can get a light turn rate out of my tri210 (1.1). With a lot of pull and a bit of a harness shift. I don't think I was ever patient enough to do a 360.

[above your decision deck] If you slow down forward movement with a flare, the pressure needed to turn or pull both fronts drops substantially. As speed builds, so does the riser pressure.

[councilman24 37]

These guys seem to be thinking of riser turns for landing where you need to keep the toggles in your hands. But.......

Hmm I think it was my Sabre 190 that I routinely looked over the tail. BUT I was doing them for fun up high, not landing approachs so I LET GO of both brake lines and used two hands. NOT the thing to do low. Repeat DO NOT DO THIS LOW. You lose a LOT OF ALTITUDE if you do this hard. I've watched an inexperinced jumper doing front riser spins for fun, not for landing, all the way into the ground.

So, way up high, I'd try letting go of the steering toggles, get both hands on one front riser, at the link if you can or with a dive loop it's easier, and pull it down until your scared. If you go very fast the pressure will build and you may not be able to hold it.

I actually think it was one of my non zp canopies that used to turn the best, and the smallest one I ever jumped was a 220. I don't jump high performance canopies, but both my Sabre 170 and my Triathlon 190 will do front riser spins this way as fast as I would want to go.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[sparkie 0]

Quote

AFAIK you will not be able to do that particular B requirement anyway, don't know who came up with the 3x360 left and 3x360 right requirement (in succession!!).... I can do it on my Diablo now, I think, but with a big canopy, only if the 360's are around Twello

Very probably your brake lines are too short. Is it your own gear? Or rental from Case?

Anyway, just come to Teuge, you can always play poker

I found the 360 req. a bit steep for B licence indeed.

I will ask some more expert advice while learning to poker, I believe there is a noob table?

[MagicGuy 0]

What I do for front riser 360s is pull on both dive loops and then gradually let one up, along with some harness input. Gets me into a real nice, fast diving 360. Fun stuff to do up high. I stop all front riser stuff at 1500 feet.

[tbrown 26]

I jump a 210 Pilot, loaded at about 1.2. The bigger canopies are hard to pull the fronts down because you're fighting the force of the lift on the underside of a larger wing.

But try pulling your toggles down to about half brakes first. This cuts your forward speed and reduces the volume of air passing under the canopy. You only need to hold half brakes for a second or two, then go for your dive loops and pull 'em down. You'll be amazed how easily they come down.

And by the way, DO NOT take your hands out of the toggles, it's not safe. It takes way too long to get a hold of them again if you need to act quickly. Your steering lines might be too short, look up at them when you're flying wide open. They should have enough slack to make a visible graceful arc to the tail of your canopy. If they don't arc, they're too short and would definitely cause buffetting when you use the fronts.

Of course as soon as you pull down your fronts you'll start going even faster, so the pressure will return quickly. The trick here is that mentally you don't so much pull your fronts down, as pull YOURSELF UP, like on a chinning bar. Once you get yourself up there, with a little bend in your elbows, the next step is simply making up your mind not to let go until you're good and ready to.

Letting up on the opposite riser to make a turn sounds good to me. Actually you can easily make small turns with your fronts, by which I mean just a few degrees left or right. And while you should start off up high, you'll need to start bringing it down closer as you get more comfy and experienced with it. Because the Pilot has such a long flat glide that your fronts are the only way to keep from overshooting the landing zone on some lazy no wind days. You may need to honk on those fronts to keep your approach on the beam. Fortunately the Pilot has a quick recovery arc, so you can take it down pretty close if you have to - but only after gradually working your way down and with plenty of input from your instructors.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[dragon2 2]

Quote

So, way up high, I'd try letting go of the steering toggles, get both hands on one front riser, at the link if you can or with a dive loop it's easier, and pull it down until your scared.

Why would you let go of the brakes. Why would letting go of the brakes even help in pulling (unless of course your brakelines are too short - fix that).

No reason to ever let go of your brakes, unless doing crw or cutting away your main

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[councilman24 37]

Lots of reasons to let go of your brakes. And my brakes are not too short. They are where I, a master rigger, want them.

I don't use front risers to land, and yes, my brakes ARE too short for that. And they are to short to pull a front riser down to my waist. So are yours.

Reasons to let go of your brakes? Stow a main ripcord, stow a freefall banner, deploy a flag or trailing smoke, undo a chest strap, DO HARD FRONT RISER SPINS WITh TWO HANDS, hmmm take a hand held picture, blow an air horn, play with an anemometer or GPS, keep your hands warm on a winter jump, keep your hands from going numb on a high altitude hop and pop, drink a beer on the sunset load, and lots more things I'm not thinking of. And two good ones you mentioned - CRW and cutaways.

I always get a kick out of jumper who thing they CAN'T let go of their toggles.

BTW I was jumping when toggles WERE toggles. (Official "I walked three miles to school up hill BOTH WAYS comment")

Quote

1 : a piece or device for holding or securing: as a : a pin inserted in a nautical knot to make it more secure or easier to slip b : a crosspiece attached to the end of or to a loop in something (as a chain, rope, line, strap, or belt) usually to prevent slipping, to serve in twisting or tightening, or to hold something attached

Definition b. took the form of a wooden dowel with a hole drill through it on my Paracommander. The steering line passed through the hole and was tied.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 37]

Quote

And by the way, DO NOT take your hands out of the toggles, it's not safe. It takes way too long to get a hold of them again if you need to act quickly. Your steering lines might be too short, look up at them when you're flying wide open. They should have enough slack to make a visible graceful arc to the tail of your canopy. If they don't arc, they're too short and would definitely cause buffetting when you use the fronts.

Taking you hands out of the toggles is NOT UNSAFE when done appropriately. See the reasons in the post above to want to let go of your toggles. Letting go your toggles LOW TO THE GROUND is unsafe. I didn't tell him to do that. And if you don't DO front riser turns to landing having a "graceful arc" means your steering lines ARE too long. You have to pull 4, 6, 8 inches before you have any response.

There are different set ups for different reasons. For high performance landings, yes you trade longer steering lines for the ability to do front riser turns with out letting go. I don't want to do that and it's not what my post was about. It was about doing front riser spins at high altitude with both hands pulling one riser as far down as possible on bigger canopies.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[sparkie 0]

thanks for the input. I was able to test some stuff out this weekend. exited and opened at 6000 (due to shitty weather that was max)

I noticed my toggle lines have slack when i reach and pull the fronts down. (i pull front down about 30cm (more or less). The pull force is not the problem btw. Still get the same unstable turning at about the rate of a flat turn in half brakes.

I think its just the size of my canopy and the low WL (1,05) after all. Definitely not short toggle line related coz i tried stalling and it didnt work with toggles full down (i have long arms). It only stalled somewhat when i let up a bit then slammed back to full brakes.

O, well only some 140 jumps to go for a better WL ;P

[gdmusumeci 0]

You might try this technique. Weight-shift to the opposite side of the turn: that is, if you want to turn left, shift as much weight as you can to the right. Pull the front riser dive loop down (you really have to pull). Once the turn starts, shift all your weight back over in the direction of the turn. Keep holding that riser down until you absolutely can't hold it any more. Or, obviously, you run out of altitude.


I found this technique to be pretty effective on canopies of about the same size and wing loading as what you describe.

[dorbie 0]

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The bigger canopies are hard to pull the fronts down because you're fighting the force of the lift on the underside of a larger wing.

From a steady glide the total lift will be equal to the weight of the load on the wing, regardless of wing size or wing loading. The total load spread between the risers in this scenario will be equal to the weight suspended by them.