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Andy9o8

Barrel roll during track?

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But I am afraid I do not know what are you talking about because you did not quote what I said :(



Just click on the "In Reply to" next to the subject. I linked it for you.

You're not qualified to offer advice yet. Your packing thread is bunk :D. This one ... well, it speaks(reads) for itself.

I'm sorry but I have to quote what another well respected and very cool dz.commer said to me in a PM in regards to my offer, which by the way, still stands.

"My guess is he would spend most of the time arguing the finer points of body position with you. By 2:00 PM, 3:00 at the latest you will choke him out and leave for a beer"

That gave me a good laugh :D

The act of skydiving is simple. That's why people can do it by themselves within a few jumps. At most you have 151 minutes of practice (tunnel time not counted if you have any). That's something to think about.

I'm no one special but did train pretty hard for a few years so built up a reasonable amount of skill.

In many other sports or activities, that training doesn’t apply so at that point I'm the student. New jumpers teach me new things all the time, Hopefully in return, I get to show them how not to learn the hard way.

There ya have it. I threw it out there and you are welcome to join me. You show up,we’ll fly.

that is ... unless we argue; I choke you out and leave for a beer. :)
Offer stands.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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You might say I am “not qualified”depending on your definition of “qualified. However, I was right when recommended the propack method for the sabre2. This is what the manufacturer recommends. And about the wrist mirror: I just said I prefer tracking, flaring and waving off. I do not like the barrel roll and replaced it for a mirror and it works. You have not used it. No problem. It is OK for me.

Quoting your words: some people “have trained pretty hard for a few years so built up a reasonable amount of skill.” And some of them think they cannot be contradicted and cannot be wrong and end up pushing people and themselves to unnecessary risks because of their wrong advice.

Hey man: Falling is easy. Skydiving is not. We all should be willing to learn from others’ experiences and points of views no matter how qualified or trained we think we are. If we learn anything from any one we will become better. If we think we have nothing to learn we will always be worse, no matter how good we think we are.

I will pay for the bears! Thank you again for your invitation!
:)
Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

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We all should be willing to learn from others’ experiences and points of views no matter how qualified or trained we think we are.



Yep you can NEVER stop learning in this sport, anyone who thinks other wise is fooling them selfs.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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"A driving analogy to this scheme of BR during track off is similar to checking all your mirrors before hitting the brakes. Do you know any drivers that do that?
There might be some that check the rear view mirror while applying brakes if they have to slam the brakes on and have a bit of space in front of them to avoid being rear-ended."

The driving analogy doesn't really make sense. When your driving its completely acceptable and often expected for someone to be behind you when you hit the brakes. There are multiple lanes on the highway and multiple cars PER lane heading in the SAME forward/horizontal direction. It sounds stupid to explain such basic reasoning but unlike driving it is unacceptable while tracking for jumpers to share the same direction. That direction being vertical. Cars share horizontal lanes, skydivers do not share vertical lanes. You could be right in that one shouldn't do a barrel roll during a track. I don't have the experience or knowledge to determine that but I know a bad analogy when I see one. Tracking and driving have totally different rules.
canopy collisions are bad

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here is a post for the experienced to say, "I told you so." But I do not post this for them, I post it for the less experienced, like myself.

This past Saturday, I participated in a Tracking dive, at breakoff, we track away , and i was to do a BR to check my space before deploying. I had not fully braked when i initiated my BR, ended up flailing around, lost all control and unstable. It took me a couple seconds to regain belly to earth, wave off and pull. I had to land out. *unrelated to my point, but rather than land in the huge field, i decided on the dirt road next to the field, so not to have to cross the barbed wire fence.. so i landed parallel to the barbed wire, and towards power lines/street. sure, i had a good landing, but wasnt the smartest thing* Anyways, When I looked at my neptune afterwards, it had a recorded 1400 feet as deployment, so I probably pitched about 2100ft. Scared the others on the jump with me, as well as myself. A few seconds later, the outcome would not have been as pretty.

I learned from this, do i think BR are a bad idea, No, not on tracking dives, on small 4 ways and such, yes, they are pointless. BUT , if you are going to do a BR, make sure that you are able to, and experienced in the way you want to perform it. I have done BR before, while stable, and that is how I meant to do it this time, but i was still in track when i initiated it, and look what happened to me.
CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

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"A driving analogy to this scheme of BR during track off is similar to checking all your mirrors before hitting the brakes. Do you know any drivers that do that?
There might be some that check the rear view mirror while applying brakes if they have to slam the brakes on and have a bit of space in front of them to avoid being rear-ended."

The driving analogy doesn't really make sense. When your driving its completely acceptable and often expected for someone to be behind you when you hit the brakes. There are multiple lanes on the highway and multiple cars PER lane heading in the SAME forward/horizontal direction. It sounds stupid to explain such basic reasoning but unlike driving it is unacceptable while tracking for jumpers to share the same direction. That direction being vertical. Cars share horizontal lanes, skydivers do not share vertical lanes. You could be right in that one shouldn't do a barrel roll during a track. I don't have the experience or knowledge to determine that but I know a bad analogy when I see one. Tracking and driving have totally different rules.




On bigways, you track off in groups.
Sometimes there is a double layer - all headed on the same radials.
Think of two Vs one set inside the other or like this >>

Even on smaller (16-20way) camps, we teach the track off as a group method, as preparation for a 100-way or larger.

On any load, if the airspace is congested for some reason (everyone goes the same way) you can sheepdog someone in front of you. You keep slightly offset from them, so that when they flare and wave off, you can go by them, waveoff and pull off to the side and lower than them. IOW, one person clears the space for two people.

It is very important to watch the tracking leader so that you do not run into them.

Just a slight clarification:

When you BO with a >> formation, the inner wave slows a bit to give distance to the outer wave at about the midpoint of the entire track time.

When you sheepdog someone on a jungle rules dive, you do go past them and pull, offest and below.

Depending upon your reading comprehension, this may clarify things or it may muddy the waters.


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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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.... i was to do a BR to check my space before deploying. I had not fully braked when i initiated my BR, ended up flailing around, lost all control and unstable. ....



Gee, I thought most people were talking about a BR during the track, not as a belly manuever.
Either way it is a bad idea.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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Not replying to anyone specific.

I currently suck at barrel rolls.But, I am working on this as well as tracking.I want to get proficient at BRs for this exact reason.The man who was coaching me did this.It makes sense to me. And I was suprised how many people don't BR during track.He taught me not to be dependant on others seeing me.I want to track and barrel roll well before any other skill.

And I hope I never say "sorry about that collision, I was blinded by the sun in that mirror."
"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

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You got me there.
But, I'm a long way from even being able to do this.Who knows what my opinion will be at that experience level?But, I still say it just makes sense.
If you're proficient at tracking and BRs, you should have a basic idea of where people below you are, while you are on your belly, before your BR, shouldn't you?
"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

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.... i was to do a BR to check my space before deploying. I had not fully braked when i initiated my BR, ended up flailing around, lost all control and unstable. .....



Maybe you should consider your skill level before going on future tracks large enough to require this skill.

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Maybe you should consider your skill level before going on future tracks large enough to require this skill.



Indeed, I've learned my lesson. As stated, i put that up for us unexperienced to learn from, and the more experienced to have an 'i told you so' moment.
CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

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>If you're proficient at tracking and BRs, you should have a basic idea
>of where people below you are, while you are on your belly, before your
>BR, shouldn't you?

Yes. But the most important time to know what's below you is just before you pull. More than once I've had someone tracking like a banshee behind me slide below/behind me just before they flared out and pulled. If I had been barrel rolling at that point, my first sight of them might be seeing their pilot chute as I completed the roll.

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I don't disagree with you.But, don't you think it becomes 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other?You either BR and miss seeing the guy below.Or, don't BR and don't see the guy above.
My choice will still be to try and develop this skill.And perhaps there will be times and places to use it or not.I still know it is a skill I want to possess, before I move on to things such as free flying.
"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

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I don't disagree with you.But, don't you think it becomes 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other?You either BR and miss seeing the guy below.Or, don't BR and don't see the guy above.
My choice will still be to try and develop this skill.And perhaps there will be times and places to use it or not.I still know it is a skill I want to possess, before I move on to things such as free flying.



It befuddles me that new jumpers think that the sage advice from long time belly jumpers would be totally dismissed.

You know what, in over 6000 jumps, including a bunch of +100 ways and something like 40 +300 ways, I have NEVER, EVER BR during break off.

YMMV of course.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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I constantly seek the advice of long time jumpers of any discipline.
This practice I learned from a man with 25 years of experience.
And through years of my own experience I will develop my own style and practices.The experience of others is all I have to learn from now.But, when the experienced jumpers differ in opinion the best I can do is educate myself and make my own descision, based on the knowledge I gather from more than one experienced jumper.
"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

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Good for you....dz com isn't the be all and end all.
When i feel it's necessary i barrel roll whilst maintaining my track,admitedly all my jumps are freefly for which the skill to BR whilst tracking can be literally lifesaving imo.
Such skills may not be relevant amongst the flat fliers tho.
As much as i don't like the idea of coliding with another canopy whilst in free fall,i sure as hell don't want someone to collide with mine.
.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

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,admitedly all my jumps are freefly for which the skill to BR whilst tracking can be literally lifesaving imo.***

I agree.So I see no reason not to have this life saving skill in your bag of tricks.
"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

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Or "sorry about that collision, I was barrel rolling and didn't see you below me."




Any proof of that? I ask cause that seems to be one of the main points if not the main point for not doing a BR during a track. Seems to me that more than likely the person who is concerned and taking the necessary steps to avoid a collision from above is also considering the airspace below before deciding to do a BR. Unless there is evidence and I mean proof of people doing BRs during a track and then colliding with another jumper then whats wrong with it? It seems to have helped quite a few people.
canopy collisions are bad

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Good for you....dz com isn't the be all and end all.
When i feel it's necessary i barrel roll whilst maintaining my track,admitedly all my jumps are freefly for which the skill to BR whilst tracking can be literally lifesaving imo.
Such skills may not be relevant amongst the flat fliers tho.
As much as i don't like the idea of coliding with another canopy whilst in free fall,i sure as hell don't want someone to collide with mine.



Why is barrel rolling so necessary for freeflying but not flat flying?

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Unless there is evidence and I mean proof of people doing BRs during a track and then colliding with another jumper then whats wrong with it? It seems to have helped quite a few people.



Fact: Human beings don't have eyes in the back of their heads!!

What additional proof do you need? When ever you take your eyes off of what is below you then you lose the ability see it!!! You can't see below you if you're on your back in the middle of a barrel roll looking up!!!

I have heard from plenty of people that have seen a wave off from above and had to react, proof that it pays to look down!!

I would rather ALL the other people on my skydives concentrate on looking down. I would argue that the highman has more options to avoid.

Edit: typos :$
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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>Unless there is evidence and I mean proof of people doing BRs during
>a track and then colliding with another jumper then whats wrong with it?

I've seen perhaps a dozen close calls, two collisions and one fatality from people not looking below them during breakoff. The way to solve this is to pay more attention to what is going on beneath you, not to look away during the most critical part of the breakoff.

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Or "sorry about that collision, I was barrel rolling and didn't see you below me."




Any proof of that? I ask cause that seems to be one of the main points if not the main point for not doing a BR during a track. Seems to me that more than likely the person who is concerned and taking the necessary steps to avoid a collision from above is also considering the airspace below before deciding to do a BR. Unless there is evidence and I mean proof of people doing BRs during a track and then colliding with another jumper then whats wrong with it? It seems to have helped quite a few people.



Well I could send you off to ask a former S&T Director of USPA to give numerous examples.
Or I could send you off to look at the fatalities over the recent years.
These examples would be more along the lines of "I was not looking where I was going" as opposed to 'I did a BR'.

The *proof* that you are seeking is that the collider did not see the collidee in time to prevent the collision.
Unfortunately, the collider and collidee almost always die in the accident or cannot remember the accident.
So there is no 'this is what I saw and what I was thinking first hand accounts'
We have to go on the 3rd person accounts.

If you can find some accident that was prevented because the *low* guy got outta the way of the *high* guy, let me see it.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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I would rather ALL the other people on my skydives concentrate on looking down. I would argue that the highman has more options to avoid.



Yep and had this girl not been looking down but doing a BR, she wouldn't have made it, but she did make it, close as it maybe, because she was able to turn away when someone dumped under us with no wave off.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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You know what, in over 6000 jumps, including a bunch of +100 ways and something like 40 +300 ways, I have NEVER, EVER BR during break off.



Yes, however that is with RW jumpers. Freeflyers are all over the sky on group jumps, every break off for them is like a mega funnel, don't you know. :o:)
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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