Should Rigging Be a Requirement?

[Andy_Copland 0]

Like Stratostar said though, how can they do an efficient gear check when some dont even know how the 3 rings work?

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Like Stratostar said though, how can they do an efficient gear check when some dont even know how the 3 rings work?

Like anyone here who passed C license test and able to check and pack their gear. They have to solve a mess of lines without cutting the main away of course.

You don't have to be to assemble a kill line PC, but you have to be able to see if it is broken. Same goes for the 3 ring too.

[Scoop 0]

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Toggles look simple for you, but you are not authorized to assemble or maintain skydiving rig with a rigging license. We can change rubber bands and closing loops.

I thought in the UK anyone could assemble the components of a rig (minus reserve of course)

[RB_Hammer 0]

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Do you have to take a test in mechanics for getting a driving license?

You do have to know how to open the door. You should know how to buckle the seat belt. You 'might' need to know how to put gas in.

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Do you have to take a test in electronics in order to be allowed to use a computer?

You do have to know how to plug it in to the electicity outlet. You should know how to type. You should know where the on/off switch is.

But then again, you do seem to be the most negative poster I have been reading here.

"I'm not lost. I don't know where I'm going, but there's no sense in being late."
Mathew Quigley

[Scoop 0]

In England, infact, to pass your driving test now you do need to have basic knowledge related to maintenance of your vehicle. They make you pop the bonnet and ask you a few questions for example.

[billvon 3,107]

>OK, do you have to inspect and maintain an aero engine to get a pilot's license?

You do have to be able to open access covers, inspect propellers, spinners, engine parts, brakes and control surfaces, check fluid levels, understand how a magneto works, understand fuel/air ratios, check for water in fuel, understand flight surface rigging enough to spot maintenance errors (like reversal) manipulate flight surfaces manually to observe operation etc etc.

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

Yeah, I know what you mean... I've had to explain what "crossports" are to a D-Licensed & AFF Jumpmaster rated person once...


Anyway, should some basic rigging be a Requirement... well... No, I don't think so... am I surprised when I run into high time jumpers that don't know some basic skills like... hooking up a main canopy or swapping out a D-Bag & pilot chute... yeah, but I don't think it should be a Requirement... us Riggers gotta be able to sponge beer for performing simple tasks around the DZ for the less informed somehow!

[stratostar 5]

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yeah, but I don't think it should be a Requirement... us Riggers gotta be able to sponge beer for performing simple tasks around the DZ for the less informed somehow!

You got that right!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Andy9o8 2]

Some subjects are best analyzed without analogies, and this is one of them.

The simple fact of the matter is, if you don't know your gear well you can't do an effective gear check, and if you don't do a proper gear check you could wind up killing yourself, and maybe others. The caveats about "in-air rigging" notwithstanding, good gear knowledge just might save your bacon in a hairy situation. I happen to think that gear knowledge goes hand in hand with skydiving safety. But that's just me.
IMO, various levels of minimum gear knowledge and proficiency should be part of the license requirements.

[diablopilot 2]

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Toggles look simple for you, but you are not authorized to assemble or maintain skydiving rig with a rigging license. We can change rubber bands and closing loops.

Not true. If a person does NOT have a rigging rating they may perform maintinence and assembly of their own main canopy. With a rigging ticket, they may not. Or so the letter of the law states.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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But then again, you do seem to be the most negative poster I have been reading here.

Damn' when did I loose the title?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[brettski74 0]

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Not true. If a person does NOT have a rigging rating they may perform maintinence and assembly of their own main canopy. With a rigging ticket, they may not. Or so the letter of the law states.

A person with a rigging ticket is not permitted to maintain their own main canopy? Or not allowed to maintain your main canopy? Either way, colour me confused, cos this doesn't make sense to me.

What does a rigging ticket allow you to do, then?

[kallend 2,146]

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>OK, do you have to inspect and maintain an aero engine to get a pilot's license?

You do have to be able to open access covers, inspect propellers, spinners, engine parts, brakes and control surfaces, check fluid levels, understand how a magneto works, understand fuel/air ratios, check for water in fuel, understand flight surface rigging enough to spot maintenance errors (like reversal) manipulate flight surfaces manually to observe operation etc etc.

But are you allowed to FIX any problems that you find with the engine? That would be the equivalent of rigging as opposed to doing a gear check.

BTW, with several ratings and a number of BFRs behind me, I have yet to be asked how a magneto works, or what fuel/air ratios are on any written or oral flight test. It would, in fact, be illegal for me to work on a magneto or carburetor, even on my own plane.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[peregrinerose 0]

It's my thought that a person should be proficient enough to be able to recognize that a problem exists. If a person isn't familiar with their own gear (including toggles/brake lines), they can't track wear or pick up anything that might be an issue.

If your car makes a funny noise, you may not be able to fix it, but you can say 'hey, something's not right, time to take it to a mechanic to check'. If you are keeping an eye on your own lines, harness, and canopy, know what it is supposed to look like and how it is supposed to work, it gives enough of a knowledge base to say 'hey, something's not right with this, time to ask a rigger to check it for me.'

Not every jumper needs to be able to reline a canopy or pack a reserve, but they should know the basics of what 'normal' looks like and what normal function is. For someone to have 900 jumps but not have enough familiarity with what 'normal' is on their own rig to be able to figure out how to remove a toggle without involving scissors really surprised me.

Parachute systems are not so complicated that a jumper can't be familiar with all the major parts of a rig. I'd hope that every jumper watches at least one repack of their own reserve and pulls their handles for every reserve repack.... just one more way to learn their own gear.

Riggers are friendly people and easily bribed with beer. All the riggers I've ever come across have been happy to teach to those who want to learn.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[kelpdiver 2]

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Disclaimer: Im not trying to upset anybody here but this kinda bugged me a bit.

I was reading the forums and saw a post asking for help getting a toggle off the break line.

getting it off is one thing, but reattaching it?

The knots used for the slinks and for the toggles are not ones I'd like to screw up.

Safety is promoting the asking of questions, not shunning it whenever it falls below your preferred level of expertise.

[tombuch 0]

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BTW, with several ratings and a number of BFRs behind me, I have yet to be asked how a magneto works, or what fuel/air ratios are on any written or oral flight test.

But with a single engine carbureted engine you do need to know how to adjust the fuel/air mixture, how and why it works, how and why the carburetor might be iced, and how to prevent, detect, and correct icing. You also need to know that there are two magneto's and how to determine if one isn't working, and what to do on a run-up if a single mag isn't working. You need to be able to check the condition of the alternator, figure out if your landing light is working, and if your carb heat is working.

I think every jumper should know about their gear to the extent necessary to determine if it is in need of repair, and should have the ability to do simple repairs such as attaching a main to a harness and assembling a three ring, attaching and detaching an RSL, and replacing a closing loop. Too many of our experienced jumpers don't have this knowledge, and pass their rigs off to "packers" who also lack this basic knowledge. Basic rigging should be included as part of the exam process.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[piisfish 140]

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I was reading the forums and saw a post asking for help getting a toggle off the break line.

why did he have a toggle on a break line ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[billvon 3,107]

>But are you allowed to FIX any problems that you find with the engine?

Minor ones, yes. I have tightened cowling screws, added oil, applied Rain-X to the windscreen, cleaned grass out of the screen over the air intake etc. Very basic stuff. If I owned my own plane I'd probably do more; the FAA lets you do basic maintenance like oil changes on your own.

And to get back to this discussion, I'd expect any jumper to be able to hook up and pack a main, inspect it for damage, know when the lines need to be changed, be able to shorten/lengthen brake lines, know how to change rubber bands and closing loops etc.

[riggerrob 643]

... us Riggers gotta be able to sponge beer for performing simple tasks around the DZ for the less informed somehow!

[diablopilot 2]

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Not true. If a person does NOT have a rigging rating they may perform maintenance and assembly of their own main canopy. With a rigging ticket, they may not. Or so the letter of the law states.

A person with a rigging ticket is not permitted to maintain their own main canopy? Or not allowed to maintain your main canopy? Either way, color me confused, cos this doesn't make sense to me.


What does a rigging ticket allow you to do, then?

Ok so here goes, it gets confusing but lets see if we can make sense of this.

This part, specifically the part in red shows that someone can maintain their own main parachute. However the part in blue puts some question into what rating a rigger may do the same for you

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§ 65.111 Certificate required.
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(a) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any personnel-carrying parachute intended for emergency use in connection with civil aircraft of the United States (including the reserve parachute of a dual parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping) unless that person holds an appropriate current certificate and type rating issued under this subpart and complies with §§65.127 through 65.133.

(b) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person—

(1) Has an appropriate current certificate issued under this subpart;

(2) Is under the supervision of a current certificated parachute rigger;

(3) Is the person making the next parachute jump with that parachute in accordance with §105.43(a) of this chapter; or

(4) Is the parachutist in command making the next parachute jump with that parachute in a tandem parachute operation conducted under §105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.

(c) Each person who holds a parachute rigger certificate shall present it for inspection upon the request of the Administrator or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, or of any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer.

(d) The following parachute rigger certificates are issued under this part:

(1) Senior parachute rigger.

(2) Master parachute rigger.

(e) Sections 65.127 through 65.133 do not apply to parachutes packed, maintained, or altered for the use of the armed forces.

So we can see that without a riggers ticket of any sort you can pack, maintain, and alter your main parachute to your heart's content within the letter of the law.

So can a Tandem instructor that will jump the main next.

So may someone holding the appropriate FAA rigging rating.

HOW ever also according to the FAR's a Senior rigger may not do any major repairs or alterations without the supervision of a Master Rigger.

Major repairs are defined as anything that could affect the airworthiness of the parachute.

Therefore anything more than assembly and packing of a main parachute done by a Senior rigger is against the letter of the FAR's

Conclusion: Having an FAA Senior Riggers rating restricts what an individual may do to a main parachute, however an individual WITHOUT the same rating has more freedom with their own main. (it could be assumed that a Senior Rigger can do anything they want with their own main, but no one else's.)

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Andy_Copland 0]

I've got you fucking riggers sweating with this aint i!

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[jdfreefly 1]

This is an interesting subject. I had a long talk over alcohol with a master rigger about this very thing. He was torn..

I'm paraphrasing the conversation, but the gist of it is correct I think...

"In the old days, we all watched out for each other. We all knew how the gear worked, and no one would ever pay to have their rig assembled. They always did it themselves and then paid a rigger to either watch them pack it, or they watched while the rigger packed it. Now, people drop off their gear and they expect the rigger to take care of everything. They don't know how to hook up a main, and they don't want to know. It's kind of scary that we have people jumping who know so little about their gear, but hey, if we didn't, I wouldn't be able to live off of this business."

I think you should know your gear. I've never met a rigger who wouldn't spend time with a newbie to show them how to hook up a new main, or let them look over their shoulder while they packed the reserve.

Furthermore, I think if you don't want to know your gear, fine, that's your decision. But I think it's irresponsible to promote that attitude to others.

Finally, I don't think we should be flaming people who don't know this stuff. We should be taking them aside and offering to teach them.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[sunshine 2]

If someone wants to pay a rigger to maintain their gear, it's their right to do so. I pay someone to maintain my car.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[shropshire 0]

Cracking thread, young man

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Andy_Copland 0]

Wow, young man today... Not "yoof"

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.