RW Frustration

[Zennie 0]

Warning up front, I'm about to vent some frustrations, so if you hate to listen to people whine, you probably should move on to the next thread.
OK. I've got 70 jumps now and I have yet to turn a single f#$%^ing point on anything bigger than a 3-way. To make matters worse, whenever I jump with the group that I normally hang with, we never get points turned. I'm convinced one person in my group thinks I can't do anything right. Not overt or anything, but on every jump there seems to be a little comment about how I was doing this or that (which many times I wasn't).
It's really starting to give me a complex. I'm starting to believe this stuff. Maybe I just need to find another group of people to jump with or maybe I just truly suck at RW. I could get coaching, but I really don't want to spend my jump money on other people's tickets right now.
In any event I've been trying my hand at freefly lately and it's been so liberating. The people are really nice and give me all kinds of tips. I don't need to scare up a group of people. I don't have to please anybody except myself.
I sit on the freefly side of the plane and everyone's yukking it up, all loose and having fun. I look down and many, if not most of the RW people are so serious looking. I know why, they're mentally preparing, but you know what? I'm jumping to relax, not to get all tense. I have enough of that during the week.
I'm not a quitter by nature, and there are many things about RW that I enjoy. And again, maybe I just need a different group. I dunno. I just know that on most of my RW jumps I wind up feeling dejected after debrief and after freefly jumps I come in smiling.
Sorry to waste y'alls time, I just had to vent to somebody.
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Blue Skies!
Zennie

[Pammi 0]

I hear ya Zen. I think that's why a lot of people end up trying the whole freeflying thing. You're not messing up anyone else's jump is you do something wrong and there's a lot less pressure to it. That's kinda why I tried a couple of sitflies already. I suck at those too, but hey, who cares. I feel bad when I screw up an RW dive though. Luckily, the people at our DZ are all good natured about it and are always trying to tell you what you did RIGHT, then the pointers about how you can improve.
I want to try some more freeflying for sure, but I'm also not ready to give up RW. I *do* like the comraderie of doing a jump with my friends, and the way it challenges my entire being, my mind AND body. Then there's CReW. Woohoo! That's the shit! LOL! Anyway, I guess my taste in flying is like my taste in music....depends on my mood :)
Don't give up Zen. Have fun with freeflying, but I guess I'm a belly-flyer at heart because I'd hate to see you give it up completely. It sure feels good when you start figuring out what moves do what or swooping (or trying to in my case) down to someone is a blast! I hope to learn all I can about what my body can do in the air in all positions!
Just remember, that's the fun of skydiving :) Don't let anyone make you feel like crap because it didn't go as planned. If they are, definately find someone else to jump with that understands you're still learning and we're just trying to have fun for heaven's sake!
(BTW, I'm very tired still and not quite coherent so I hope this post makes sense! Pammi
Some new pics.

[pyke 0]

I'm with you Zen!!
I have over 100 now and if it gets bigger than 4 I suck at it....but as I was always told when I first started jumping...even after 200 jumps you are still going to suck, so don't let it bother you. It is always a learning curve...you suck at two ways...then get better at them, but can't turn 3 ways...you get those and can't go bigger...etc, etc. I am only NOW getting to where a four way can turn more than 4 points, and this is with a ever changing group, so don't listen to anyone who says "you" screwed up the dive. Chances are...they are covering their own ass. And as for feeling bad about screwing up others jumps...well, hell, it they were really that uptight about jumping and not doing anything...then tell them to join a team. Weekend jumpers in my experience DON'T CARE if they turn 1 point or 40, they are out there to get in the sky and have fun doing it. Half the time I have zooed a dive for others...the story of the zoo was more impressive than the dive itself.
Well, I don't know if this is any comfort to you, but hang in there poppet...she'll be right!!
Cheers,
Kia Kaha,
Pyke
NZPF A - 2584

[RemiAndKaren 0]

Zen,
maybe you need some "extra" coaching... Not so much for skills (althought it never hurts) but for confidence building...
If the 4 ways you get on never mount to anything, and you start to question your abilities, I think the best thing you can do is to build your confidence back up (this way, if you think someone else thinks you're not up to par, you'll know its not the case)!
Do a few 1 on 1 with a coach (or if none are around for you, an experienced friend, but one who knows how to observe)... make some tough moves (side slides, cats without cheating...)
Focus on proximity, being there, then, only then, once you're there, close, take the grip (get the hint?).
And let us know how you get on!
Remi
PS: I'm no freeflyer, but I am sure that being good at RW will help you at FF, and in the same way, being confident in your RW skills will help in FF!

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

In this instance it might very well do you some good to find some other people to jump with; that or get a little coaching. If most of your "regular" jump buddies have basically the same experience, then that makes it harder to progress. One thing that I would definitely recommend, though, is to buy/rent/borrow some coaching tapes. My favorite one to lend is Kinnesthesia; it is a must-view for my RW students. It is a great tape filled with many very good drills. Skydive 101 is OK too.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with dabbling on "the dark side"; freeflying is quite enjoyable and challenging. With your current experience level, though, I would maybe try and nail one discipline down. I know it is quite frustrating when you "just can't get it", but stick in there.
Chuck Blue
D-12501

[Grogs 0]

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To make matters worse, whenever I jump with the group that I normally hang with, we never get points turned.

How good is that group Zennie? If they're all the same experience level, that makes it much harder. When you jump with people who are really good, it helps out a lot because you're pretty sure they're doing what they're supposed to do. If, for example, you see the formation moving away from you, you can be pretty sure you're backing up, and not them. When you have 4 people who are all having the same kind of problem, it's really hard to diagnose who's doing what. I've been lucky that at my DZ, I was usually able to do a jump with some experienced people at least once a weekend. It really helps your confidence after you've done 3 dives and haven't scored a single point to be able to do a load with some high-timers from your DZ and bust 6 points on a 4-way.

[Zennie 0]

Thanks all.
I have had success on 3-way with two other really experienced jumpers. I'm my own worst critic unfortunately, and I tend to beat myself down. Once I start to lose confidence I have a really hard time getting it back.
So the coaching for confidence-building is a good suggestion. I think I just need to hear from someone who I trust & who has a lot of experience that I don't suck. I've had other experienced jumpers give me good marks, but I get back with my group and just re-lose what confidence I've gained.
So I may need to branch out a little and try working with other people.
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Blue Skies!
Zennie

[DZBone 0]

Yeah, this sport is full of plateaus. You will get past this one, and hit another . It's when you break through them that you get really stoked!!
I would try to find a different group, or at least a different organizer. It could be that whomever is setting up the dives isn't putting you in a good position for your skill level. Good organizers can do that. You could actually turn points in a 20-way, for example, if you can launch a stable 4-way base and keep stable. The other 16-19 jumpers can do all the hard work until you are ready/confident to take more challenging slots. If you are being asked to fly into a 4-way meaker from a position you aren't comfortable with, you will have problems.
What exactly is going on with these dives, anything consistent? If you are going low or high all the time, you can ask your friends to match your rate better, or gets weights/looser suit. If they are all general free-for-all-fuck-ups, try simpler dives, and repeat the same one over and over, so you all have a chance to fix your mistakes.
Anyway, we all have streaks like this, then suddenly there is that one dive that goes like clockwork, and it makes up for everything!
Carl

[Zennie 0]

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What exactly is going on with these dives, anything consistent? If you are going low or high all the time, you can ask your friends to match your rate better, or gets weights/looser suit. If they are all general free-for-all-fuck-ups, try simpler dives, and repeat the same one over and over, so you all have a chance to fix your mistakes.

They generally devolve into free for alls. On a given 4-way, we'll generally have me (at 70 jumps) one at around 100 one at around 60 and one around 30. So it gets into a lot of "who funneled the exit" kind of thing. Then it's basically a zoo dive from there on. If we do pull off a good exit, once we break to turn points it all goes to hell.
I did just buy an RW suit and only have about 10 jumps on it. So some of my recent problem may be me getting used to the booties, 'cuz they do make a huge difference. I have found that after breakups I'm able to get down & dock up with the low person in pretty short order.
A lot of this stems I think from a close call me and one of the people in my little group had a ways back. We nearly collided tracking down to a low person. He thinks it was my fault, I personally don't because he was off above & to my left when I started tracking and came out of nowhere on my right and in front when we almost collided.
It was probably a good thing for me, because it *really* got me in the habit of looking around during tracks. He said he got over it, but I'm not sure he has completely. So now I think he thinks of me as some head-up-my-ass skydiver.
Couple of examples. Just the other day we do a 3-way sit jump. I actually nailed the exit for once and look up only to see them way the heck above me. So I practice a couple hand turns and roll on my back once or twice, get right back into the sit. Do a cartwheel and absolutely nailed it.
What do I get when we get back down? "We couldn't get down to you because you were tumbling." Huh?
On another day, I come in for a landing and he goes "Kinda landed that crosswind didn't you?" Um, no. I was lined up with the socks and the rest of the jumpers. Stuff like that.
Still that kind of stuff gets into your head ya know?
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Blue Skies!
Zennie

[skybytch 273]

Definitely find some other people to jump with, regardless of the experience levels of those you have been jumping with - you do NOT need to listen to people bagging on your flying at this point. I had the same problem with one particular guy when I was learning; soon enough I learned to not jump with him and amazingly enough my flying skills improved radically Remember that the learning curve for all forms of freefall flight is very steep - jump with people who enjoy the learning process as much as you do, not those who are chasing perfection.
Don't give up on belly flying though! There's really nothing like the first time you rip out 8 or 9 points on a four way, or the first time you dive down to a 20 way and don't go low on it, or the first time you actually complete everything that was dirtdived.... I would also suggest getting some one on one coaching, if only to remind yourself that you aren't as bad as you think you are!
pull and flare,
lisa

[DZBone 0]

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On a given 4-way, we'll generally have me (at 70 jumps) one at around 100 one at around 60 and one around 30. So it gets into a lot of "who funneled the exit" kind of thing. Then it's basically a zoo dive from there on. If we do pull off a good exit, once we break to turn points it all goes to hell.

I think I may have a diagnosis of your problem. You all suck! Hahaha, just kidding. But seriously, it doesn't sound like any one person in that group has the authority to be pronouncing judgment on the others. A hundred jumps entitles you to pie, not Godlihood. It's not a surprise that it goes to hell. I would get hooked up with some more experienced people, and subvert your ego (tho it sounds like you're already doing that, maybe too much), and learn like hell from them.
And have fun, dammit! Those crazy freeflyers didn't invent "enjoying skydiving"(tm)!
Carl

[Billy 0]

Hay ditto on the frustration!!
Guess I'm lucky, our lil DZ the folks are very willin ta get us low timers up ta snuff ta jump with them,, as far as that dude with the attitude, hymm, hymm, FUC% HIM!!

[jaybird 0]

i totally understand where you are coming from. until this year i always felt that i was messing up other peoples dives and felt that i had to warn them that i sucked at rw. so last year i went to freeflying cause there it didnt matter, at least with the people i jumped with. this year i tried the rw thing again at the begining of the season. i got real lucky and jumped with some people with a lot more experience. this really helped the dive. i had always tried doing rw with people that also had little experience in formation flying, and we just combined to really suck. as the sunset load was manifesting one day, i asked some experienced divers to help me get my falcon, (i bribed with beer, if i get it i buy beer), and they challanged me to try for 8 points instead of only 4. one of the other divers is an organizer at our dz, so he planned this 4 way jump in a matter of minutes, and we pulled 8 points. since then i have been able to catch more and more dives with the groups of rw jumpers and have done as much as a 2 point 21-way.
ok, so long drawn out story just to say, try to jump with some more experienced jumpers, that way seems to go a whole lot smoother.
sorry for the rambling
jaybird

[dpwolf 0]

Zen,
I feel your pain, but don’t get discouraged...you’ve received some very good advise from your fellow skydivers in this forum. Let me add my own. If you want to be a kick-ass RW flyer, learn from the experts. I strongly recommend the basic body flight course offered by Skydive University. For starters, get the Basic Body Flight Theory video and watch it, study it, and absorb it. Next step is to go through the course.
You say that you jump at Spaceland so you probably know that the 8-way team Deguello trains there. One of the team members, Don E. is a Skydive U coach. When he isn’t training, he jumps and coaches at Skydive Houston in Waller. The course consists of 20 jumps, with or w/o video, and covers everything you need to know about body flight, including lots of ground prep. You learn a stretching routine that will limber you up and prepare your body for the rigors of skydiving. You will learn how to mentally prepare for each jump, how to set goals (short term and long term), how to train you body through muscle memory techniques to do whatever you want to do in the dive.
The basic skills you will learn are forward / backward movement, vertical control, center-point turns, out-facing turns, sliding, transpositional movements that combine elements of some or all of the basic moves, and much, much more. This course will give you confidence and provide you with a great foundation on which to build. You will learn in 20 jumps what will take you many hundreds jumps to learn on you own.
If you get the chance, talk to Don. He is very approachable and a terrific coach. You can contact him via e-mail at SkyUHouston@aol.com or catch him at Spaceland next time his team trains. He may even do some coaching at Spaceland.
For a change of pace, come to Waller some weekend. We have lots of great guys and gals to jump with. I’d like to meet you and do some dives with you.
Blue ones!
Denis

[ramon 0]

Come to the Dark Side my son.
ha ha ha
Ramon

[RemiAndKaren 0]

Step away from the baggy jumpsuit.....

[skreamer 1]

Zennie, I am on almost exactly the same number of jumps as you and in a very similar situation. In my personal (limited) experience, the freefliers and CReW dogs are really friendly and keen to teach newbies their discipline. My freefly suit has been ordered and I have found somebody who wants to teach me CRW (he insists on paying his own slot - amazing!). When I was in California in March, a VERY experienced freeflier offered to try taking me head down. I offered to pay his jump ticket, he refused. I lost it about 2 seconds after the exit, but then I got to watch him freeflying around me while I was in a turtley semi-sit position. It was the sunset load at Skydance, my 26th jump and by FAR my best to date! It's one thing to see these experienced freefliers doing their stuff on video, seeing it yourself in the air is mind-blowing stuff!!!
Son of Vader (soon to be)
"Blue Screens Black Coffee"

[Zennie 0]

LOL @ ramon!
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Blue Skies!
Zennie

[Zennie 0]

I just want to say thanks to all of you for your support and suggestions.
I'm not a quitter by nature and I think the consensus is that I should try a change in environment and get some coaching. So that is my plan. I'm not gonna give up on RW yet.
I prolly still dabble in the Black Arts though.
Any other bi's out there? ------------
Blue Skies!
Zennie

[wildblue 7]

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Step away from the baggy jumpsuit.....

Don't listen to them! C'mon, all your friends are doing it... it'll make ya feel good.. c'mon man, the first one's on me! Just one time, what could it hurt?
Join us, together we could rule the universe!

[skybytch 273]

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Any other bi's out there?

....steps up to the microphone..... "My name is skybytch and I go both ways".... (not that way... sheesh, get yer minds outta the gutter...)

The skydiver of the future will be able to fly in any body position. I wanna be the skydiver of the future...
pull and flare,
lisa

[jfields 0]

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able to fly in any body position

This would be a really good skill to have for other kinds of (h)RW as well.
Justin
"If it can't kill you, it isn't worth doing."

[PalmettoTiger 1]

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C'mon, all your friends are doing it... it'll make ya feel good.. c'mon man, the first one's on me! Just one time, what could it hurt?

A joke that you all have probably heard by now, but I'm gonna say it anyway:
What's the difference between skydiving and crack?
Your first hit of crack is free.
Blues, Squares,
PTiger
*insert sub-100 character sig here*

[Aviatrr 0]

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The skydiver of the future will be able to fly in any body position. I wanna be the skydiver of the future..

That's what true freeflying is...not just sit, stand, and head down - but being able to fly your body in any position.. This includes belly flying, as some freeflyers may not like to admit.. Freeflying has definitely helped my belly flying.. On a 10 way tracking dive, I was wearing my freefly suit(big mistake) and was a major floater.. So I went head down, got below the formation, back into a track, and joined 'em from below and the side.. If I had stayed on my belly, I would've only gotten to watch from above..
Mike

[AggieDave 6]

It's like the joke about the guy whose doing a 222 way and dives the door: Two angels, both former skydivers, were sitting on a cloud over Florida, watching the 222 way build. The DC-3s came lumbering by, everyone piled out, and the thing started building. Finally only one slot was empty. Thirty seconds later, the last jumper dives from one of the DC-3's. He goes into a standup, falls straight down into his slot, rolls onto his back, picks up grips, and flips back over.
The angels are amazed by this. "wow!" says the first one. "That guy is amazing! He's incredible! That must have been Guy Manos."
"Nope, that was Jesus Christ," the second one says. "He just thinks he's Guy Manos."
AggieDave '02
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Blue Skies and Gig'em Ags!
BTHO t.u.