Planes - a - flyin!

[Dutchboy 0]

Mike, four planes, all on flight plans (as required by law) were hijacked and deviated signficantly from their flight plans. This went unnoticed for how long?
Filing a flight plan has allways been optional for VFR pilots. Inside controlled airspace, where both incidents took place, pilots are in contact with controllers. Requiring a flight plan for every flight would do nothing but overwork ATC personel making it easier for deviations to go unnoticed.
The Dutchboy
http://www.geocities.com/ppolstra

[Dutchboy 0]

They must be using the NOTAM issued at 5am that said the airpace would open at 11am, and have not received the NOTAM put out at 10:57am saying no GA operations were permitted.
The Dutchboy
http://www.geocities.com/ppolstra

[wildblue 7]

From aopa.org (notice the time)
------------
Special message from AOPA President Phil Boyer
9/13/01 3:37:20 PM, ET — ALL IFR AND VFR GENERAL AVIATION FLIGHTS ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN THE NATIONAL AIRSPACE SYSTEM UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE. Never did I think I would see an notam that read like this. As the ultimate optimist, and one who has spoken today with the both the secretary of Transportation and the FAA administrator, I can only continue to hope their promise of reopening the NAS for general aviation is real. Yes, we are in the early recovery phases of a crisis that occurred in our country, but the line of communication within the FAA itself, and other government agencies, has produced an aviation crisis in its own right. Throughout the morning, the news media touted an FAA official notam that indicated airspace would be open to all aviation users at 1500Z. AOPA verified this, downloaded a copy from DUATS, and placed it on our Web site. Within minutes, I received a call from a high-level FAA manager indicating the subject of GA was still under review. Reluctantly, and with great disappointment, we changed our Web posting to indicate caution. However, pilots obtaining a legal briefing got the notam, filed flight plans, and, in some cases, even departed at 1500Z. Unknowingly, they violated the 1457Z notam prohibiting all GA flights. The horror stories now are unfolding. Corporate chiefs who had been told by flight crews they could depart at 11 a.m. taxied out and then were turned around by the tower.
Some flights did get into the air, but don't count them lucky. F-16s intercepted not only corporate aircraft and demanded they land immediately, but in Texas, a student and flight instructor returned to home base after a similar intercept. When we first became aware of the possibility this could happen, our senior vice president of Government and Technical Affairs, Andy Cebula, made contact with the head of FAA Flight Standards and obtained his pledge that no one caught in this mixed-up notam mess would be subject to an enforcement action.
"Chaos" is the best way to describe the FAA environment that your association is working in. Flight service stations are offering varied information to pilots, sometimes contradicting what FAA headquarters has issued. Segment by segment, it appears that users will be returned use of the airspace system. Next could be Part 135, better known as charter flights to you and I. We expect word in late afternoon, and our primary concern is the return of basic VFR privileges. When I was informed that some of the delay in a decision was being caused by one or two politicians, I asked your AOPA Legislative Affairs staff to contact their offices and "educate" them on G.A. That is happening as I write. When a truck loaded with explosives blew up the federal office building in Oklahoma City, we didn't ban cars, but there was sure a lot of scrutiny about trucks parked in other locations. Why ban the aviation equivalent of cars, general aviation aircraft flown for business and personal use.
I have another call into Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta, and your AOPA staff continues to remain totally focused on getting us all back into the air. This is sure one of those days (weeks) that I wish that I could swap jobs with one of you. To make matters worse, the weather is severe clear — a perfect day to fly; however, for the moment that freedom has been taken away.

Then, I saw these two guys swoopin across the pond, and I was like 'weeeeeee!!!!'

[Dutchboy 0]

Yes, everything that is not an airline flight is "General Aviation". It is possible to be GA and still commercial. Jump planes are comercial operations that are part of GA, as are business who fly their own aircraft, charter flights, etc.
The Dutchboy
http://www.geocities.com/ppolstra

[Slappie 9]

Thanks wildblue, I wasn't arguing the fact, just wanting to know where your getting your information.
Thanks *DuH*
My New Website with 24hr Chat

[skreamer 1]

Me! Me!
Oh yes, I forgot, I live in England - hop 'n pop anybody?

[airann 1]

Excuse me, I want to talk to an actual person who actually jumped today. Thats all I am saying.
Not to disbelieve, anyone-anywhere, however---
Have you ever gone to a DZ (anywhere) and what they "meant to say" was they were just -about to fly- and they were just waiting on some "other jumpers to show up". Then these VIP's dont show up and dang it you have a few beers instead.
Doesnt shyt just happen??
I will go and check it for my self within the next hour.
Sign This! Waiver----- If you dont believe me ask - Cyberboyeeee he is going with me.
The One
The Only
AIRANN
Skydive~Friends~Happiness
AirAnn
www.AirAnn.com

[airann 1]

The
PLANE IS GROUNDED
it was cleared this morning and now the word is, (4:11pm CST)
they were going to go and now they are "told by" the FFA, or the AFF or the FAA. or whoever I get them mixed up ---
saz they CANT FLY.
Skydive~Friends~Happiness
AirAnn
www.AirAnn.com

[Jumperpaula 0]

Damn, you really had me worked up there for a while.
Thanks Tease...
Fly Your Slot !

[miked10270 0]

Hi Dutchboy,
Yeah, 4 'planes on flightplans were hijacked and deviated from their flightplans with terrible consequences... My point was that since this happened there WILL be changes in an effort to prevent any repeat of this happening.
I suppose that it could be called "Closing the stable door after the horse has bolted" - the point is that when an atrocity happens then "The People" want to see "The Government" doing something.
As an example (or several) look at the present UK gun laws: One sick person using a magazine fed rifle (Hungerford) and ALL such weapons banned. One sick person using a handgun and ALL such weapons are banned. This was despite (almost) all of these weapons being held by law-abiding citizens who had been "positively vetted". Of course, gun ownership in the UK was practised by a small minority.
Mike D10270.

[Aviatrr 0]

Quote

Until now the FAA has allowed a "free skies" policy in which aircraft in the US can largely fly anywhere they want! For example, a friend of mine recently ferried a 'plane to Florida from further up the East coast. His "flight plan" consisted of "No particular course, speed or heading... I intend just kind of following the coastline down". This was accepable to a succession of ATCs.
In the future expect this policy to vanish.

It is only VFR flights that are allowed to fly "where they want".. And they aren't allowed to fly wherever they want - they are allowed to fly where ATC says they can in controlled airspace.. Much of the airspace in the USA is uncontrolled - therefore, they don't even need to do so much as to call any controller while flying.. If they are going to penetrate controlled airspace, they must contact the controller for approval, and then follow ATC directions..
This will NOT come to an end due to this attack..
Mike

[HotLoad 0]

Do you think that the FAA will begin to require flight plans from all aircraft, both VFR/IFR. I realize that this would mean a great deal more work for controllers and FSS's. What about security measures at uncontrolled airports? I happen to work at an uncontrolled airport, and I can tell you that we have had police patrols and officers on the airport during off hours. I fear that GA will suffer greatly if small airports are closed until their security measures are increased. The aircraft capable of operating at uncontrolled airports do not pose the same type of problems as airports harboring airline traffic and should not be held under the same scrutiny.

[Aviatrr 0]

Quote

Do you think that the FAA will begin to require flight plans from all aircraft, both VFR/IFR.

ALL IFR flights are required to file flight plans and obtain clearances as it is.. VFR flight plans are not used for tracking flights at all enroute - they are used for search and rescue should a flight not show up where it is supposed to.. Even though a pilot is on a VFR flight plan, they don't have to talk to anybody as long as they remain in uncontrolled airspace.. Requiring a VFR flight plan would not accomplish anything..

Quote

I fear that GA will suffer greatly if small airports are closed until their security measures are increased.

Agreed.. It's already happening.. There are thousands and thousands of GA airplanes stranded.. I fly a corporate jet - we are considered GA.. We can't fly.. My company has 85 jets grounded.. I know of 3 other companies that, between them, have 500+ airplanes - all grounded.. That's just 4 companies, and at least 600 airplanes.. Hell, with just corporate jets, there are thousands that are grounded.. If these jets were allowed to fly, it would reduce the load on the airlines.. Smaller GA aircraft(such as small Cessnas, jump planes, etc) would pose little to no threat that I can imagine.. Since you work at a small uncontrolled field, you know there's not much activity compared to large international airports.. GA is already suffering - and it appears GA is being singled out to reduce the traffic situation..
Mike

[Dutchboy 0]

Just read the latest update from AOPA. The FAA is blaming others in the government for the lack of GA flights at this time. It seems that they are terrified at the thought of flights that they cannot control.
Flying my Cessna 150 around the sky doesn't pose much of a threat. It holds about the same amout of gas as my car, and fully loaded still weighs less than a Geo Metro (empty).
I wonder how much longer the underpaid pilots and flight instructors in this country are going to be unable to work.
The Dutchboy
http://www.geocities.com/ppolstra

[Aviatrr 0]

Quote

I wonder how much longer the underpaid pilots and flight instructors in this country are going to be unable to work.

Or how much longer all the small aviation companies can survive without any income due to this grounding...
Mike

[billvon 3,110]

>ALL IFR flights are required to file flight plans and obtain clearances as it is..
>VFR flight plans are not used for tracking flights at all enroute - they are used for
> search and rescue should a flight not show up where it is supposed to..
> Even though a pilot is on a VFR flight plan, they don't have to talk to anybody
>as long as they remain in uncontrolled airspace.. Requiring a VFR flight plan
> would not accomplish anything..
Requiring all flights in the US, both VFR and IFR, to get a clearance before takeoff would give ATC more control over who takes off. Right now, of course, this isn't required for VFR - but that could change. Everyone wants to do _something_, and the FAA is not immune to overreaction.
>Smaller GA aircraft(such as small Cessnas, jump planes, etc) would pose little
> to no threat that I can imagine..
I think they could potentially pose the greatest threat. A C206, loaded with 1500 pounds of ANFO, and equipped with a three axis autopilot, makes an extremely effective cruise missile. Since they can currently take off from uncontrolled airports, there is very little the government can do to stop such weapons. And since you can take off in such an aircraft, and get out with a parachute once established on course without much fuss, it doesn't even take a kamikaze pilot to do it. It seems like this would be a lot simpler than taking over a 767 and flying it into a building.
-bill von

[Dutchboy 0]

Good point, Mike. I forgot about the "rich" owners of those companies. OK, only rich relative to the pilots/instructors at poverty level or below.
The Dutchboy
http://www.geocities.com/ppolstra

[Dutchboy 0]

You can make up scenarios all day, but the probability of such a thing is so small. First you need to find a 206, and the 1500 lbs of ANFO, etc, etc. You aren't going to find that many small planes with a 3-axis autopilot, especially one that could be programmed for such a flight.
It's just plain ignorance that is keeping all of us grounded right now.
The Dutchboy
http://www.geocities.com/ppolstra

[wildblue 7]

snippet from aopa.org again:
----
AOPA is continuing to push on all fronts to get general aviation back in the air. But let me manage your expectations. When the security threats lessen, first will come the approval for Part 91 IFR flying. Then, no sooner than 48 hours later, should come the restoration of VFR privileges.
----
Then, I saw these two guys swoopin across the pond, and I was like 'weeeeeee!!!!'

[Dutchboy 0]

I'm surprised that nobody has considered making everyone file an ADIZ flight plan (or whatever it is called). You have to file this type of plan if you are crossing the border.
If you make everyone file IFR you're going to see a good number of flights that don't even qualify as cross country.
The Dutchboy
http://www.geocities.com/ppolstra

[RemiAndKaren 0]

Quote

1500 lbs of ANFO

sorry to break the news to you Dutchy, but ANFO is damm easy to make... and getting mixtures wrong by a significant amount wont render the stuff useless... in fact having less FO the optimal makes it more sensitive.....
PS: may sound like I'm talking BS (especially after calling PVC carbonate (that was silly of me!), but I use to work for a commercial explosives company as a tech rep)
Remi
Muff 914

[billvon 3,110]

>You can make up scenarios all day, but the probability of such a thing is so
>small.
A week ago, the idea that a terrorist would take a year of FlightSafety simulator training, hijack a 767 with a box cutter, and fly it into the WTC would have seemed even smaller.
>First you need to find a 206, and the 1500 lbs of ANFO, etc, etc.
206: a terrorist with the money could buy one in a few weeks.
1500 lbs ANFO: I could buy the ingredients this afternoon, and they would cost me $275. None of them are restricted or hard to get. (I won't list them for obvious reasons, but I'm sure you can figure them out.)
> You aren't going to find that many small planes with a 3-axis autopilot,
> especially one that could be programmed for such a flight.
Again, that's just money. He could as easily buy a King Air with such a system, or have an avionics shop install such an autopilot.
-bill von

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

You can make up scenarios all day, but the probability of such a thing is so small

[start sarcasm] yeah thank God, it would be sooo much easier to find 18 people willing to hijack a plane and then kill innocent people to gain control of those planes and then fly into buildings killin thousands more. Thank God it would be soo much easier to do that then to find a small plane, an auto pilot and explosives...........[/end sarcasm]
really Dutchboy think about it....
SkyDekker

[Dutchboy 0]

I don't want to get into how autopilots work, but they don't seem to work the way everyone who suggests this scenario think they do.
The only mode in which an autopilot would hone in on a target like that is if it was equipped to follow an ILS approach. This would require two antennas set up in the exact right manner on the ground.
It would be much easier and effective to just load up a truck, and skip the airplane.
While everyone is throwing out scenarios, why don't you just have people buy the cruise missles. After all, you have them buying $340k aircraft.
The Dutchboy
http://www.geocities.com/ppolstra

[Slappie 9]

Well this is a small bit of good news!!
___________________________________________________
Part 91 IFR operations may resume at 4 p.m.
9/14/01 4:16:04 PM — The Department of Transportation has reopened the nation's airspace to IFR general aviation operations. VFR operations may be permitted later this weekend. The official notam from FAA will be issued shortly and will be posted here when available. AOPA has learned that there will be some restrictions to the IFR operations. ALL IFR flight plans must be from airport to airport. ATC will NOT accept "pop-ups" or air files. The pilot must call ATC on the ground before takeoff. No airborne cancellations will be permitted. Cancellations must be made on the ground, with an ATC facility. Pilots must check carefully for temporary flight restrictions (TFRs — listed as FDC notams).
Following is the text of the press release from the Department of Transportation:
September 14, 2001
DOT 97-01
Secretary Mineta Re-opens Skies to General Aviation
Secretary of Transportation Norman Y. Mineta has approved restoration of the next phase of national air service, allowing certain general aviation flights back into the air effective at 4:00 p.m. Eastern time today.
"Effective today, general aviation — that important segment of aviation consisting of privately owned and operated aircraft — will be allowed to resume flights operating under Instrument Flight Rules, or IFR," Secretary Mineta said. "Under IFR, certified pilots operate under direction from air traffic controllers, after filing specific flight plans with the FAA."
Temporarily, however, general aviation flights will not be allowed to fly within 25 nautical miles of New York City and Washington, D.C. Those restrictions will be kept in place until further notice as officials continue to assess the recovery situation in those cities over the near term.
The Secretary's decision today also permits the FAA to allow private aircraft owners to evacuate their aircraft under visual flight rules from harm's way during the predicted approach of Tropical Storm Gabrielle within the states of Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, and Alabama.
Secretary Mineta said he is hopeful that the remaining general aviation flights, those operating under Visual Flight Rules, can resume flying later this weekend. Commercial flights were allowed to resume on Thursday, contingent upon airline and airport compliance with heightened security standards established by the Federal Aviation Administration.
"We are restoring the national airspace system in a phased mariner, after careful evaluation of the safety and security issues in each sector," the Secretary said. "Again, I ask the patience of the flying public. Please remember that we are recovering from a massive disruption and widespread shock. But very soon we will work our way back to full recovery."
There are more than 200,000 privately owned and operated aircraft registered in the United States.

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