Bombing Afghanistan back into the Stone Age

[Iflyme 0]

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Awwww....poor fuckers. Much different than America at the start of the Revolutionary War. I say fuck em! They have chosen to live on their knees instead of dieing on their feet. If they aren't part of the solution they are part of the problem. This US is in large part what it is because long ago people not too differen't than you and I made a choice. They chose to live on their feet instead of dieing on their knees. Fuck the poor bastards in Afghanistan. They have made their choice now we must make ours!

And you wonder why So much of the rest of the world hates America. What a stupid egofuckingcentric thing to say... you exploit the rest of the world for your own fucking betterment - including the people of Afghanistan in the 1970s and 80s - and now you want to kill them, even though most of them live in poverty, and their children die of malnutrition. Fuck you asshole. The solution does not lie in killing innocent people. That would make you no better than the people who killed 7000 people on your soil. The soultion is finding the individuals responsible and bring them to justice. You can't do that by starting a world war. 100 people from my country were killed in NY when those towers collapsed, so I share in your anger, but shooting off all your guns will not stop terrorism. Changing your global policies will.

[apoil 0]

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.let's see how big Bush's balls really are.

"we condemn the taliban"
condemn - tr. v.
1. To pronounce to be wrong; to disapprove of; to censure.
2. To pronounce a judicial sentence against; to sentence to punishment, suffering, or loss; to doom;

[Michele 1]

Having nearly burned my eyeballs out reading this thread, I didn't see any facts and figures brought from anywhere, but lots of argument, passionate and impassioned.
So I went out and looked a little bit. As Emma said when she started this thread, this internet thing is a good thing....
So. What I found was:
A little bit of history on Afghanistan (not claiming to be as accurate as the 5 page report which this is distilled from, but close)
When the Talilban took power in 1996, they overthrew a tribal King. There is a faction which has waged war on the Taliban since then, considering the Taliban's rule to be far too harsh, and misinterpreting the Qu'ran. Their leader was shot and killed in a battle in Khabul about 10 days ago. This faction (and Lord forgive me but I can't recall their name) is known to be supported by about 25% of the population. The Taliban has control over about 45-50% of the population. That leaves about 25-30% who have not yet "chosen", or have chosen but will keep it quiet until some future time. Then there are the Ulema, the clerics, which are a binding body of 1,000 religious leaders. What they decide to do about something becomes actual law to them (and, as this is a religiously ruled country, to the rest of the country it becomes law, as well).
Going back a little farther: In the late 1800's, the tribes joined together to fight a common enemy, the Biritsh. They roundly trounced the British troops (I think the number in country was 20,000, and 19,000 were killed). In the late 70's through the '80's, the country again abandoned the individual tribes and united, and fought the former Soviet Union and Speznaz (the USSR's "Special Forces"). The Afghani's were successful after they got the Stinger missle, and was able to have success over the Soviet Union (and quite directly impacted the stability of the USSR, and contributed heavily to the dissolution of the USSR).
The entire population is estimated to be 26,813,057 as of July, 2001. The percentage of men, ages 16-64, is 60%+.
The Taliban, upon urging from the UN, banned all farming of opium poppies in 1998 ("Being high interferes with the correct worship of Allah" one cleric stated). This cost an estimated $183 mm annually, with at least 10% going in taxes to the government. The US sent the Taliban an additional $43 mm as a bonus/incentive.
The United States gave $113.2 million in aid to Afghanistan in the year 2000. We are the primary humanitarian aid provider to that country. I believe that just more than 1/2 of that amount (60+ million) was in food, and the rest was distributed in various manners, i.e. medicinals, cash, education materials, and so forth.
Osama Bin Ladin was widely proclaimed to be under "house arrest"; however, in the recent crisis, it was indicated that they were not certain where he was, and there have been widespread reports that Osama Bin Ladin had in fact fled the country, and alternatively that he is in the hills of Dahka Valley.
Just a few facts gleaned from the Wonderful Wacky Web.
Ciels-
Michele
"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky".
~e e cummings~

[flipper 0]

100 percent ...Emma....there is no real way to win this...it can only get worse.....
flip

[Emma 0]

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Awwww....poor fuckers. Much different than America at the start of the Revolutionary War. I say fuck em! They have chosen to live on their knees instead of dieing on their feet. If they aren't part of the solution they are part of the problem. This US is in large part what it is because long ago people not too differen't than you and I made a choice. They chose to live on their feet instead of dieing on their knees. Fuck the poor bastards in Afghanistan. They have made their choice now we must make ours!

The world doesn't begin and end with America. For some people there is no 'choice'. But I won't even bother to go into this because to make such an ignorant, inhumane, bloodthirsty comment, you are obviously already lost.

[Emma 0]

Another small point:
'The leadership of al-Qaida has great influence in Afghanistan, and supports the Taliban regime in controlling most of that country. In Afghanistan, we see al-Qaida’s vision for the world.
Afghanistan’s people have been brutalized, many are starving and many have fled. Women are not allowed to attend school. You can be jailed for owning a television. Religion can be practiced only as their leaders dictate. A man can be jailed in Afghanistan if his beard is not long enough.
The United States respects the people of Afghanistan. After all, we are currently its largest source of humanitarian aid, but we condemn the Taliban regime. It is not only repressing its own people, it is threatening people everywhere by sponsoring and sheltering and supplying terrorists.'
Who said this? Your President. I guess he, at least, feels some compassion for these 'poor fuckers'.

[freeflir29 0]

"there is no 'choice'"
Emma....there is always a choice. Always! These people have chosen to live in slavery. Period. There are many people on this planet that choose every day. I had an experience not long ago that forced me to make a decision. I thank God every day that it didn't come to a conclusion. It did come close enough that I had to decide how I wanted to live. I chose to live on my feet and leave my fate in the hands of God. Luckily my adversary chose to give up and go away before things becam any more serious. There is always a choice.
"This conversation ends right here Captain! You can talk to the ALO when he gets back."-Me
Clay

[wildblue 7]

Clay -
You haven't lived how these people have lived. These people are starving, the life expectancy is something like age 45, the infant mortality rate is somewhere around 150. No, most of them don't have a choice. They can barely survive, much less put up a fight against an oppressive government.
You know, it's the kind of hate you display is the same kind of hate that was displayed on 9-11 ... just different sides of the ball. And I would like everyone who may be reading this from outside of the US to know that this is not the attitude of most Americans, including our President.
Then, I saw these two guys swoopin across the pond, and I was like 'weeeeeee!!!!'

[freeflir29 0]

Emma...it's OK.....you have a pacifist, feel good ideaology. It's because you are from a socialist country. You can't help it.You seem to think that you can win the world over with kindness. What will not change is that there are millions upon millions of people in this world that would just as soon kill you. I know that you can't wrap your socialist, live a life of comfort, FM radio and what's on tv brain around that but it's the truth. If you are so convinced kindness will work why don't you get on a plane today and show the Afghan people how kind and benevolent you are. What do you think your life expectancy would be on the streets of Kabul?
"This conversation ends right here Captain! You can talk to the ALO when he gets back."-Me
Clay

[freeflir29 0]

"No, most of them don't have a choice. They can barely survive, much less put up a fight against an oppressive government."
Yes, they do. They chose to live in opression rather than fight. They would rather live on their knees and meek out an existence than fight for freedom. Jesus, you people are brain washed!
"This conversation ends right here Captain! You can talk to the ALO when he gets back."-Me
Clay

[wildblue 7]

Ok Clay, go show them how it's done then. Go over there, take your family with you. Say something bad about their rulers, and watch them kill your family. Continue to "fight" and get yourself killed rather quickly. You'll be pushed off in a grave somewhere, and maybe a grand total of 6 people will know or even care what you did to get yourself shot. Will have accomplished nothing except getting yourself and your family killed. But hey, you made a stand right?
There are a few people who have organized and are fighting the Taliban. I think they're called the Northern Alliance - they actually hold Afganistan's seat at the UN. They're putting up a fight, they're just not getting anywhere. But hey, screw them too , right?
Then, I saw these two guys swoopin across the pond, and I was like 'weeeeeee!!!!'

[freeflir29 0]

Nope...the Northern Alliance is the only friendly folks we have in that country. I'm sure they don't particularly love us but we sure have a common enemy now.We should use that to our full advantage. I'm sure we are doing that already. Besides....if we just went in and destroyed whats left of the country and then pulled out, what happens? Anarchy. We need someone there to run things so we aren't garrisoning Afghanistan for the next 100 yrs.
"This conversation ends right here Captain! You can talk to the ALO when he gets back."-Me
Clay

[SpeedRacer 1]

BRAIN TEASER
WHO SAID WHAT?
Hey boys & girls! Here's a really kool brain teaser for ya! See if you can guess which of the following quotes or synopses are attributed to freeflir, and which are from Osama bin Laden!! Think hard, kiddies, it's not easy!!a)

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"We do not differentiate between those dressed in military uniforms and civilians; they are all targets in this.

b)

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In the face of that reality the only alternative is to cause such pain, suffering, and death to cause them to wonder about the future of their race. When there are but a few left this may change their mind. If it doesn't......just kill them too and the problem is solved.

c)

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xxxxxx believes that what we consider to be terrorism is just the amount of violence required to get the attention of the Xxxxxx people. His aim is to get xxxxxs to consider whether continued support of xxxxx is worth the bloodshed he promises.

d)

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Xxxxx would be a glass floored self lighting parking lot right now. I would deploy troops to Xxxxxx and committ some well deserved genocide. When I was done with that, I would ask the rest of the Xxxxx world "Who else wants some?" Just my .02 C Too bad I dont influence Xxxx foreign policy.

e)

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I still stick with "Kill em all, Let God sort em out" Coexistance on this planet is impossible.

f)

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he broadened the edict to include the killing of "xxxxxxs and their allies, civilians and military . . . in any country in which it is possible to do it.

g)

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It will stand as long as I draw breath. To that end I will do whatever is necessary. If it is to wipe entire nations and take millions of lives. So be it

---------------------------------------------
Just post your answers on this forum. The winner gets a gen-u-wine first edition copy of "Mein Kampf", a year's supply of Napalm, 10 kilos of weapons-grade plutonium, and two free tickets to a Britney Spears concert!!!
Speed Racer
"Come up to my lab,
And see what's on the slab!"

[freeflir29 0]

Hmmmm....so it seems a lot of people are abdicating that we fight a war based on the "rules" that we create. Meanwhile our enemy uses whatever means available without restraint. Sounds a lot like how the Brits got there ass kicked somewhere around 1776 and America had much the same result in Vietnam. I'd like to avoid that. Thanks.
"This conversation ends right here Captain! You can talk to the ALO when he gets back."-Me
Clay

[Tee 0]

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Yes, they do. They chose to live in opression rather than fight. They would rather live on their knees and meek out an existence than fight for freedom. Jesus, you people are brain washed!

You can only do what you know Clay. What is common sense to you, may not be to someone else. You would know to do these things because you were trained to do so. We also have our school systems and the media educating us, without these some of the things we know today would be incomprehensible to us, as they are to the people of Afganistan. Without education or resources like food and weapons, how are these people supposed to rise up against the Taliban without walking into a slaughter?
Tee

[Emma 0]

'I know that you can't wrap your socialist, live a life of comfort, FM radio and what's on tv brain around that but it's the truth. <==== ???
You know NOTHING about me, so refrain from your patronising comments, if you will. I don't live in a socialist country, but that's beside the point. I would make the suggestion that you could try reading a little rather than pontificating from such a plainly ill-informed pedestal.
So. The is 'always a choice', is there? Well, I guess by your reasoning, 6,000 American people 'chose' to die in the World Trade Center last week? They 'chose' to go to work, they 'chose' to be part of capitalism, they 'chose' not to pay any attention to the potential threat of terrorism from the Middle East and they 'chose' to die? Hardly.
' If you are so convinced kindness will work why don't you get on a plane today and show the Afghan people how kind and benevolent you are. What do you think your life expectancy would be on the streets of Kabul?'
This is just an irrelevant comment. Believe it or not, despite my happy-clappy-feel-good-huggy-wuggy-all-the-poor-wickle-terrowists way, I was not planning on popping over to Afghanistan with a fresh apple pie, some cookies and a 'Learn to love your inner terrorist child' book for them.
I am merely suggesting that the Afghanis are no more 'in control' of decisions made and actions taken by the Taliban than you were in control of Bill Clinton's decision to get sucked off by a fat office clerk. Fortuntely for you and me, we don't live under a psychotic, crazed dictator, so consequences of our impotence are not usually so grave as they are for the people of Afghanistan.
Please try and fish out the part of your brain that hasn't been atrophied already through excessive testosterone surges. If there is any left.

[freeflir29 0]

"how are these people supposed to rise up against the Taliban without walking into a slaughter?"
I didn't say I had all the answers. I just know that I would rather live one minute as a free man than 1,000 years as a slave. I'm kind of in to this whole freedom thing if you can't tell.
"This conversation ends right here Captain! You can talk to the ALO when he gets back."-Me
Clay

[jfields 0]

Damn. That is a tough quiz! Good one though. It is kind of like, "I'll take radical militant philosphy for $1000, Alex."
Lemme see.....
Without going back through the posts, I'd have to say:
a) bin Laden
b) Clay
c) bin Laden
d) Clay (easy one)
e) Clay
f) Clay
g) bin Laden
So, Speedy, did I pass?
Justin
My Homepage

[Emma 0]

By the way, guys, since I'm a drippy sappy love everyone type, I would just like to point out that this thread is teetering dangerously on the edge of 'must be deleted!' stuff, so maybe we could tone down the personal attacks (yes yes I am guilty above, but someone said I had a 'whats on TV brain'..now, where's the remote....?)

[freeflir29 0]

"so consequences of our impotence are not usually so grave as they are for the people of Afghanistan."
and if they were I would be fighting, armed if necessary but thats always a last resort, to change my governement. Luckily, we can vote in this country which has kept it peaceful for a very long time now.
You don't live in a socialist country? Oh your profile listed the UK as residence. Apparently you have moved.
I don't see how the victims of a terrorist attack have anything to do with people that made a choice to be citizens of a country? Maybe you should fill me in. If you mean that they are Americans and therefor take a risk by being affiliated with a country. Yes, I suppose that they did make that choice. As I have. If I didn't want to be a citizen of the US I would leave. I have no plans to do that.
"This conversation ends right here Captain! You can talk to the ALO when he gets back."-Me
Clay

[Emma 0]

Define 'socialist'?

[freeflir29 0]

and let us remember that my "extremist militant philosophy" is in RESPONSE. I'm not Hitler sitting in my mountain top retreat on a sunny day thinking.....Should I go to work today....or start a world war and attempt genocide.
"This conversation ends right here Captain! You can talk to the ALO when he gets back."-Me
Clay

[BenW 0]

So Clay,
Us "Brits" live in a socialist state now do we....?
Hmm...
So are we Communist, Marxist, Leninist or Maoist??? Ah, yes, I almost forgot, there's that extremist socialist repressive state which is run under a Blairist regime..... Must be the one!
As Emma asks, define Socialist!
B

[Emma 0]

Clay- did you actually bother to read the links I put up to the CIA and Amnesty International websites?
It explains that the people of Afghanistan have been and still are victims of the Taliban. They have murdered thousands of men, women and children. When someone murders you, it pretty much removes your 'choices'. That is the comparison I make with the WTC victims. Do you think the victims of the WWII Holocuast deserved what they got then? Did the Jews, gypsies, blacks, cripples all deserve to be put into concentration camps and gassed? Why didn't those lazy, stupid fuckers rise up against the Nazis? I bet they'd be kicking themselves now if they knew how easy it would have been.

[SpeedRacer 1]

BUZZZZZZZ!
Sorry JFields, you didn't get them all right.
Anyone else wanna try? Scroll up & try the BRAIN TEASER above!!
Oh by the way here is a joke:
Q. Why don't they teach Driver's ed and Sex ed on the same day in Afghanistan?
A: They don't want to wear out the camel.
Speed Racer
"Come up to my lab,
And see what's on the slab!"