Keith 0 #76 November 15, 2001 SniperCJ said:Some people collect stamps. I collect guns and knives.Keith replied:Yes, guns can be and are an investment. I was watching the Antiques Road Show on PBS the other day. One gun, an older riffle IIRC, was worth some estimated 35,000 bucks. The problem is that some dolt who breaks in to a house and steals a gun isn't looking for an investment; they're thinking "WooHoo I just found a gun that can't be traced back to me"; some poor hapless kid waiving his dads gun around in front of his friend isn't thinking "Lookie here dude, what a great investment" as he accidentally blows a hole in his friend. All's I'm sayin' is hold gun owners responsible when they don't properly store their guns, that's all. Keith Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #77 November 15, 2001 skymedic said:if you are in the situation you will want one...Keith resonded:I've had a gun pulled on me and I still refuse to own one. Keith Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #78 November 15, 2001 QuoteI'm not going to get sucked into this debate, because neither side will ever change their mind....period.. ditto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #79 November 15, 2001 QuotedittoSkreamer,If you aren't going to get suckered in, why did ya post? Post whore! JustinMy Homepage Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #80 November 15, 2001 Keith responded:My Mom's husband is VERY conservative, and I as you all have probably guessed by now, am rather liberal. Tony and I love to have animated debates over the issues, drives my Mom nuts. Anyway, the point is when he starts getting defensive I know I just about have him so I keep pushing him. When he starts yelling "F#@K YOU", I simply say "Gotcha" 'cause I know he's out of ammo, no pun intended :)Keith Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #81 November 15, 2001 BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!BANG!Speed RacerThe problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind-Bogart Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiventom 0 #82 November 15, 2001 Guns don't kill people... it's those little round things........"yah can't take life too seriously, we're not gett'n outt'a here alive anyways" -Red Skelton- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #83 November 15, 2001 skydiventom said:Guns don't kill people... it's those little round things........Keith responded:You must have one hell of a pitching arm . . .Keith Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bill2 0 #84 November 15, 2001 A couple of points I'd like to bring up.1) Define what you mean by gun control. Gun control can mean anything from hitting your target to banning all guns (which is what a lot of gun control types really want, no matter what they say in public about responsible gun ownership).2) Banning guns or making guns harder to carry/own does not prevent criminals from getting them or using them to commit crimes. the very definition of criminal is one who breaks laws, so banning guns will not affect them. Much the same as drug laws don't prevent people from getting heroin/coke/meth etc. Also, many of the "liberal elite" who are so rabidly against guns, such as Sen Diane Feinstein from CA, carry guns themselves. If they were really against guns the would never carry one. Many Hollywood types cry out for gun control/banning guns but see nothing wrong with their having ARMED bodyguards around them all the time. Most people can't afford armed bodyguards. The reality of banning guns is that only criminals and well connected and rich people will have guns to protect themselves. Here in the bay area in CA, where concealed carry permits are incredibly hard to get, there was a scandal where the top financial contributors to a sherriff's reelection campaign were able to get carry permits. Of course the sherriff denied that the campaign contributions had anything to do with this. Yeah, right.3)There have been no public and fair debates on guns in America. The anti gun groups don't want it to happen. If you're really serious about studying this, read "More Gun, Less Crime" written by John Loch (spelling?) professor at the University of Chicago. When he began the book, he was not a gun owner but was against them. By the time he finished, he had purchased 3 pistols. Go read the book, he really gets into the statistics and tells you where he got every last stat in his book.4) Comparing England to the US is not realistic. Try explaining why Switzerland and Israel have just as high gun ownership, if not higher, and their crime rates are lower than ours. You also might note that England has a 50% higher rate of "hot burglaries (where someone is in the house at the time of the crime) than the US.5) The Justice Dept (under Bill Clinton, not George Bush) stated that they estimate that guns are used to protect people 750,000 to 1.5 million each year. In almost all of the cases, the gun is not fired, just displayed.Other estimates (such as Prof. Garry Klech) of FL state university places those numbers even higher.6) It is ludicrous to think that the police will always be there to protect you. The Supreme court decided a few years ago that the police are not legally obligated to protect you. They are however, obligated to protect society, not the individual. And a gun is still the most efficient way to protect you. There is no way that you can fight off several attackers or someone much stronger/younger than you. And before you say I'm wrong on this, I have a 2nd degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do. My instructor was a hard as nails 5th degree who also owned guns because he knew the reality of street fighting and the limitations of what a person can do in that situation.7) The media always covers shootings by some nut case, but never, or rarely, covers situations where a gun was used in self defense. Passing laws won't stop suicidal nuts like those kids in Colombine from killing people. If you're planning on killing yourself, as these two did, laws mean nothing to you at all.Anyway, that's my 2 cents. So fire away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #85 November 15, 2001 yeah jessica:why don't we ban words? then lets ban guns, alcohol, ciggarettes, automobiles, planes, trains.........................................................................................................................................first amendment rights, live by them, die for them, or get the f**k out!Richard"Gravity Is My Friend" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #86 November 15, 2001 I just walked off the range five minutes ago. (God, I love my job.) I just finished firing four magazines through a suppressed HK UMP in .45. So much fun. Why can't we all own such wonderful things?Gun control is dead. Politicians who want to stay in office have backed off the subject. Even the liberal media are covering shooting classes and soccer moms shopping for a nice .38 Special. We now know security is not a phone with 911 on speed dial. Security is a Colt 1911. And please, don't respond with the "a gun in the home is twice as likely to kill the owner" crap. These anti-gun myths are ALL unsubstantial lies.My favorite is the recent claim by the gun-banner VPC that Osama Bin Ladin bought 25 M82A1 .50 Cal rifles from Barrett. Truth is, the Mujahadin did take possession of 25 Barretts in the mid-80s after the United States government bought them and shipped them over there. (They were our friends then.) On the other hand, this one is a verified truthful statement: More children under five drown in five gallon spackling buckets than are accidentally killed by bullets.Learn to shoot with an NRA-certified instructor. You're fears will be replaced with knowledge. Teach your kids about firearms and they will not play with them. Your child doesn't have to stick his hand in a fire for you to teach him about burns.peace,mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RemiAndKaren 0 #87 November 15, 2001 QuoteAnd unlike Remi......I'm REALLY gonna stay out of the debateRemiMuff 914 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #88 November 15, 2001 rgoper said:.........first amendment rights, live by them, die for them, or get the f**k out!Keith replied:Uhhhh . . . hate to tell you this but we're talking about the Second amendment here . . .Keith Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #89 November 15, 2001 Sorry, you just pushed my hot button.<<<...in the end the only clear link between guns and crimes are deaths/injuries caused by guns.>>>I have been shooting for 25 of my 30 years, and I have never seen a gun jump up and shoot something all by itself.<<<...when you dont have to stab them repeatadly and cover yourself with their blood.>>>Some criminals prefer this method.<<<...deaths of 1107 children; 957 (86%) of those occurred in the United States...source: Center for Desease Control.>>>The CDC has been trying for 8 years, under the urging of anti-gunners in the Senate to label guns as a disease. Come on. The CDC ranks in anyone under 25 as children. Except, obviously...<<<...overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children aged less than 15 years was nearly 12 times higher than among children in the other 25 countries combined.>>>Let's not forget that gang bangers realized a long time ago that troubled youths will do anything to be part of something and would suffer far less than an adult if convicted for drugs and/or murder. Recruiting of middle schoolers is being replaced by recruiting of primary schoolers, just like the neighborhood gun is replacing the personal gat. Name another country with this going on. Please don't forget that the public school system is a joke, Hollywood pushes violence and gang leaders drive Lincoln Navigators with 22" rims. If you really want to do something about those numbers you parroted so well, become a Big Brother to an inner city youth. You will know in five minutes of talking with one of these kids what the real problems are.mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #90 November 15, 2001 <<>>What facts? Please enlighten me. I have looked and looked. Just can't find anything other than somebody plucked that idea out of their fat ass. It stuck though. Just like every other fable we were taught as kids.Please use John Lott's book "More Guns, Less Crime" for your future research. It is well-founded and documented by a Yale scholar.mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #91 November 15, 2001 God, I love the H&K UMP 45, I've only shot about 500 rds through one, unsuppressed. That's one quiet quiet rifle, even with out anything. I think my handguns were atleast twice as loud as the rifle. Interesting point about politicians backing off of gun control: Sept. 12 I had planned on going to the range that day anyways, and after what happened I wanted to go to the range even more. I went to my favorite shop in town to buy some plinking ammo and found out they were totally sold out of 45 acp and .223. Now, this is not a mom and pop type store, this is one fairly large operation with plenty of ammo. That sort of illustrates a common thought in society right now, atleast I think so.AggieDave '02-------------Blue Skies and Gig'em Ags!BTHO t.u. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #92 November 15, 2001 Even with the suppressor, the UMP is kinda loud. I only took my peltor's off for three rounds. I like hearing stuff.Start reloadin'mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #93 November 15, 2001 Quoteyeah jessica:why don't we ban words? then lets ban guns, alcohol, ciggarettes, automobiles, planes, trains.........................................................................................................................................first amendment rights, live by them, die for them, or get the f**k out!I was being sarcastic, sweetheart. Read for context. Alex wants to see you bleed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bill2 0 #94 November 15, 2001 Mike, you're right on target (pun intended). These statistics the anit-gun people usually don't exist, are made up, or come from incredibly biased studies. Example, the oft quoted that guns are 3 to 9 times (depending on who's doing the quoting) more likely to injure someone in their own house, like a relative or friend, was taken from the New England Journal of Medicine. The base group that they used for this study all had drug/alchohol problems to begin with. The actual percentage of mis use of guns among the general population is miniscule. If it were true that more guns cause more crime and deaths of innocent people, than Vermont should be a hotbed of gun battles. It is the only state in the union that allows people to carry concealed with no license required. Any adult 21 or over with no violent felonies can carry. Funny how you never hear about high crime rates there, or schools being shot up. And as I mentioned in my last post on this subject, read John Lott's book More Guns, Less Crime. Then you'll know the real story. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #95 November 15, 2001 I got a copy of his book on my desk. Very well done and hard to dispute.I guess I get so fired up over the lies and crap a few people have spread to brainwash thousands. I end up feeling like I am doing something wrong. I have a healthy appreciation of the lawful and safe practice of firearms use. I am tired of people (antis in political office, on tv and even the troops on the street) telling me there's something wrong with me, my hobbies and my beliefs. If you want to get on me about something, how 'bout this: I willfully propel myself out the door of an operational aircraft. That's crazy. We're all nuts!!mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #96 November 15, 2001 Gun control means using both hands. Johnny...owns rifles and going for legal handgun permit Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #97 November 15, 2001 AggieDave,Just re-reading this thread and I missed something. You are going to be a lieutenant of Marines? Congratulations! Semper Fidelis my friend. When you get to Quantico, you have to jump at Skydive Orange. It's a great DZ and there are about 5 or so of us current- or ex-jarheads who jump there.mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #98 November 15, 2001 Quote. You don't need a fully-automatic machine gun either, so why do people own them? Justin, you have got to be kidding me. People that own fully automatic weapons have at a minimum a class II sticker or a class III sticker on the Federal Firearms License. these are federaly licensed individuals that have to go through a thorough background check and also have permision from there local police dept's to own them. In reality it is VERY VERY hard to own a FULLY AUTOMATIC weapon. Now semi-automatics are a whole different item. and by the way, I can access my fully loaded and locked weapon in less than 3 seconds....it is in a finger safe that needs a touch pad code to get in. if some one tries more than three times to get in with no success it locks down and then you need to get the key out....it works for me and keeps my daughter safe. although my daughter knows how to shoot and she respects firearms....MarcBecause I fly, I envy no man on earth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #99 November 15, 2001 QuoteKeith responded:My Mom's husband is VERY conservative, and I as you all have probably guessed by now, am rather liberal. Tony and I love to have animated debates over the issues, drives my Mom nuts. Anyway, the point is when he starts getting defensive I know I just about have him so I keep pushing him. When he starts yelling "F#@K YOU", I simply say "Gotcha" 'cause I know he's out of ammo, no pun intended :)ummmmmmm.......I didn't say "FUCK YOU" so I guess you don't have me yet huh???MarcBecause I fly, I envy no man on earth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #100 November 15, 2001 Quotergoper said:.........first amendment rights, live by them, die for them, or get the f**k out!Keith replied:Uhhhh . . . hate to tell you this but we're talking about the Second amendment here . . .Why is it people will protect the first ammendment but wont protect the 2nd...very very interesting...MarcBecause I fly, I envy no man on earth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
