Jump Pilot Certification Poll

[diverdriver 6]

I have added a poll in the DiverDriver.com forum on people's opinion on Jump Pilot Certification. Feel free to visit, participate in the poll, post your thoughts or not, and visit back to see what other's think.
www.DiverDriver.com Poll
Chris Schindler
D-19012
ATP/CFII
www.DiverDriver.com

[freeflir29 0]

All two of us voted for a sign off. I think that's all you need. A guy has to have at least 190 hours for a comercial license. I think a little extra instruction is all that's needed.
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[mountainman 0]

I agree with Clay. True...I don't know much about flying, but from what I've seen, those who have it fly good. I was on a load with a guy who flew his first load of jumpers. We got an extra 1,000' and it was nice! He flew it great and it was nice and straight.
JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook.

[mountainman 0]

I would respond to the poll, but I guess I'm not registered. Then, I tried....and I need a number?? I never got it sent to me last time I tried. Oh well. It looks like a cool forum.
JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook.

[lazerq3 0]

this is just a ????? I'm not trying to sound cocky but how hard is it to fly a jump plane? I mean as far as I can tell you just have to be able to compensate for the sudden lose of weight and keep a nice level path and stable airspeed, but how tricky is all this. I'm not saying I could do this , I'm just wondering from any of you pilots how hard is it!
jason

[pilotdave 0]

I defintiely wouldnt want the FAA to make any requirements. Keep them out of skydiving wherever possible. The USPA can go ahead and require a signoff for pilots at group member DZs if they want, but who would sign them off? Just seems like a bit of a waste of energy and an area where a lot of pilots could get screwed over. Maybe I'm totally wrong but it seems to me DZs only hire pilots with the appropriate experience for the type of plane they're flying, and they train them on jump procedures. Making it "official" doesnt seem necessary to me.
Dave

[diverdriver 6]

Ok, looks like my bad on the posting of the poll. I was told that anyone could post there without registering but that doesn't seem to be the case. My apologies and I will try to fix this.
I would like to point out to people the "Accident" section. This is a listing of ALL (not just fatal) jump plane accidents in the US each year since about 1994. These are the NTSB files. After reading many of these there does seem, to me, a lack of training at certain dropzones that continue to be Group Members without sanction.
After reading a recent post on an engine out incident in Arizona and the proper handling of the situation I thought I would ask to see people's opinions on certification. Skydive Arizona obviously hires skilled pilots, trains them and maintains their currency in emergency procedures well. But just because one DZ does it well does not mean that all DZs are operating on the same level. Read the accident reports and decide for yourself. The reports are from the NTSB. I put no opinion into the reports myself in the Accident section. The forum is the place for comments.
Diver Driver Accident Section
Chris Schindler
D-19012
ATP/CFII
www.DiverDriver.com

[mountainman 0]

Hey Diver....when I clicked on your link for the poll, I just got the results for it and didn't see a place to vote. Also, you may think about not having that confirmation number. I tried to register when you first started the site, but it never sent me the number. Just a thought. JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook.

[TheMarshMan1 0]

"I'm not trying to sound cocky but how hard is it to fly a jump plane?"
I'm not a jump pilot (yet) but am close to being finished with all my ratings so I can give you my comments as a pilot. Again, I've never flown jumpers, so I could be wrong- but here are my comments as a pilot in general. Flying jumpers has a lot more skill to it than meets the eye. Theres more emergencies that are possible and complacency can likely set in much quicker than with other types of flying. In fact, I would think complacency issues would be a really big factor (any comments on that, Chris? just curious...) I know you arent trying to sound cocky, but it took some discipline on my part to not take it that way. What you are asking could be attributed to a whuffo saying something like, "how hard can it be to fall through the sky and then pull a cord?" Just my .02
-Marshall

[lazerq3 0]

Quote

What you are asking could be attributed to a whuffo saying something like, "how hard can it be to fall through the sky and then pull a cord?" Just my .02

This statement is actually true, because I dont understand the flight charactoristics of flyng and releasing jumpers verses just flying a group of people around. When it comes to flying I understand the basics, but I dont understand the differences in disiplines I guess you could call them. I'm just tring to find out what makes it hard to fly jumpers. Just trying to learn something!!
jason
And just for shits and giggles it is very very easy to fall and pull a rip cord.....its what happens imediatly after thats the tuff part

[PhreeZone 20]

Just change the view from Fourm view to linier view or the other way around and it wll work.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[freeflir29 0]

Well....most pilots don't have to deal with 4 or 5 people hanging outside the airplane. The emergencies that are possible can't even be imagined. Formation flying during jump run......Shifting loads and amounts of drag....etc etc etc.....I'm just a student pilot BTW about 50 hours worth....
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[diverdriver 6]

To all,
My apologies on the poll. Looks like I have some issues with the forum on my site I have to work out. Thanks to all who tried to check it out. Sorry for the hastle.
If you want to register it should be easy. Yes, the confirmation number will come to your email. Did you enter the email correctly? Are you using hotmail? Hotmail filters may send that email confirmation to the "Junk" box. I've had problems with other sites when I registered like that. Just some thoughts.
Chris Schindler
D-19012
ATP/CFII
www.DiverDriver.com

[diverdriver 6]

Complacency can be the number one killer for all pilots (including body pilots) not just jump pilots. But yeah, complacency, fatigue are just a couple. The acronym "I'M SAFE" works for all aviation including skydivers. Illness, Medication, Stress, Attitude, Fatigue, Emotion. Have a problem with anyone of these and it will become a distraction on that flight (jump). Now, just one bad thing doesn't mean you should be automatically grounded. Then again, it could. That the self evaluation test.
Yes, flying jumpers is like no other flying. Up, down, Up, down. Faster, Faster, make the turn times. Load, Load, Load, Go, Go, Go!!!!!! All day long. It is very hard to stay sharp. But we need to make time for recurrent training in emergency procedures. Course, some are having emergencies so often they don't have to make special time for it.
Jumpers have rigs (duh) and they know how to use them. They want to leave the airplane. This is never taught to a commercial pilot. That is why I started my website. I hope to give a central place for pilots to get ideas, education, and a voice for flying jumpers. Skydivers are welcome there too. That's why I post here and try to involve more people. Jumpers need to know more of what goes on up front.
An engine out procedure whether it be single engine or twin engine becomes totally different with jumpers on board. They want to leave. They're not affraid of taking their seat belt off. They also want to talk to you more while you fly. They intentially scream on take off. Yeah, that lasts as long as I need to start my aborted takeoff. I don't know if the screams are for joy or a fire. Then jumpers want to climb out all over the airplane. Not just on the step or door frame. They want to crawl out to the wing tip or on top of the otter. They've seen it done in some other's video. Looks cool. Must not be wrong, right?
Flying skydivers adds a heck of a lot more demand on the pilot than typical point to point flying. Spotting, taking corrections, don't shock cool the engine, stay in the plane we'll bring you lunch, maybe. I've always said it, there are jump pilots and then there are Diver Drivers. Diver Drivers are a rare breed. Just like not everyone in society should learn how to skydive, not all commercial pilots should be allowed to fly jumpers.
Chris Schindler
D-19012
ATP/CFII
www.DiverDriver.com

[Dutchboy 0]

I'm with Dave on this one. No need to drag in the FAA, and certainly not the USPA. The only thing USPA could do to the situation is find a way to make more money off all of us by getting some sort of BS certification fee.
The Dutchboy
http://www.geocities.com/ppolstra

[Dutchboy 0]

Quote

Flying skydivers adds a heck of a lot more demand on the pilot than typical point to point flying. Spotting, taking corrections, don't shock cool the engine, stay in the plane we'll bring you lunch, maybe. I've always said it, there are jump pilots and then there are Diver Drivers. Diver Drivers are a rare breed. Just like not everyone in society should learn how to skydive, not all commercial pilots should be allowed to fly jumpers.

I agree with you that not every commercial pilot is ready to fly jumpers. I do think that it should be left up to the DZO and/or plane owner to decide who can fly their airplanes.
Requiring an endorsement would require every DZ to have a CFI who was also a jump pilot around to do the endorsements. While this could mean more dollars in my pocket, it could also be a burden on most DZ's. There are pilots at my DZ without a CFI that are far more experienced jump pilots than I.
The USPA doesn't know anything about flying and has zero authority over pilots. Having them create a pilot certification doesn't sound like the right thing to do.
If it ain't broke don't fix it. The current checkouts carried out by the DZ's themselves seem to be working.
The Dutchboy
http://www.geocities.com/ppolstra

[freeflir29 0]

"The current checkouts carried out by the DZ's themselves seem to be working."
I could think of two instances where that ideaology was DEAD WRONG........
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[Dutchboy 0]

Then don't go to that DZ. Do you want to punish everyone just because there are a few idiots out there?
For example, should you as a student pilot have to go through lots of grief because of the actions of one suicidal kid? That would be the kid that his instructor was supposed to know was suicidal after spending a whole 5 hours with him, while his family, friends, and teachers were all clueless.
The Dutchboy
http://www.geocities.com/ppolstra

[freeflir29 0]

"Do you want to punish everyone just because there are a few idiots out there?"
True.....I'm going to take my chances there in May ..Since I'm a Free Flyer I don't plan on doing any huge formation loads anyway......
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

But we need to make time for recurrent training in emergency procedures

Yeah, no shit, here about SD Houston's Otter 2 weeks ago? Yeah...
Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.-General George Patton-

[pilotdave 0]

I am definitely not saying being a jump pilot is easy or commercial pilots already have the necessary training. They definitely need to learn a lot before they can safely fly jumpers. I just think it should be the responsibility of the dropzones to ensure their pilots are properly trained. If they don't, well, I see that as negligence. But just because it's not in the laws (FARs) or recommendations (SIM), that doesn't mean it's not important. Getting the FAA involved in anything related to skydiving certification is just a bad idea. We definitely don't want FAA designated jump pilot examiners or anything like that. The USPA can require anything it wants for its group members. I just don't trust that they could start a simple program like requiring new jump pilots to get sign offs from experienced ones without it costing a huge amount of money and a lot of trouble for new and old jump pilots. Chris, I'm sure you're a really experienced jump pilot. How would you like it if one day the USPA told you that you can't fly any more jumpers at a USPA dropzone until you attend an expensive jump pilot certification course taught by someone with half the number of hours as you? Thats exactly the way I picture it happening if the USPA got involved in something like that. Maybe not... who knows, but I wouldn't want to test those waters.
Dave

[diverdriver 6]

Good arguements. Look how USPA has handled the ISP. A simple program to update our instructional ratings totally run-a-muck. The simple thing would be to have a training syllabus that was filled out like a proficiency card for additional ratings. That's how I would imagine the program being. I certainly am not suggesting that we go that route. But I like the dialogue with people feeling that there should be a program in place at a DZ for initial training and recurrent training. What if a brand new DZO is not a pilot? How will they know how to set up a program for this? How will they be able to ensure that the pilots are who they say they are? This is not a widespread problem by any stretch. But I care about my brother and sister skydivers and want to see them in safe aircraft with safe pilots. How does joe blow jumper know when he walks on a new DZ that the pilot is qualified? I don't know Jim Bob DZO from anyone else. I have a trained eye. I can pick up on safety issues very fast. How about you? I am suggesting a program so you can have more piece of mind about getting in that jump plane. I want a new DZO to have the tools available to ensure that their pilots are the professionals that they thought they hired.
Right now, it's all dialogue. I'm not pushing any action in any direction. I have my preference. Involving the FAA may certainly not be the right answer. Hitting a fly with a sledge hammer is dumb. Allowing potentially hazardous pilots or operations to exist without sanction is not desirable either. Read the accident reports. "Pilot lied on medical application that he had X,000 hours more than he had in his logbook. He also claimed to have a commercial license. No record of this pilot having anything other than a private pilot's license exists." "Probable cause is the pilot's exceeding max gross weight limits and balance limits on take-off". These are violations of FARs and these are STILL USPA Group Member Dropzones. Did you know that? I'm just trying to educate jumpers on what they may not be aware of. I care about everyone's safety.
Chris Schindler
D-19012
ATP/CFII
www.DiverDriver.com

[Dutchboy 0]

DZ where I've flown jumpers actually asked to see certificates and logbooks to verify claims. This is more than anyone else ever asked me. Heck, the guy I get planes from for instruction has only met me once and has never asked to see a license or anything. For all he knows I'm not really even a CFI.
Perhaps we could develop a pamphlet for new DZO's similar to the "How to pick a flight school" things you see all around. Something like "How to pick a jump pilot", or "How to tell your pilot isn't full of s&*t", or....
The Dutchboy
http://www.geocities.com/ppolstra

[diverdriver 6]

Good idea. Also another reason why I did the website. Saves on printing. Course, I don't have a section written just for that reason. Care to write something like that? If I like it (I'm sure I will) I'll add it.
Chris Schindler
D-19012
ATP/CFII
www.DiverDriver.com