Jumping without an AAD

[AggieDave 6]

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when you're jumping a rig that you can't even take to terminal

Dude, you totally missed my point, or chose to ignore with that comment. You know what I was talking about.
I'm the kind of jumper that thinks you should have a reserve that is fairly conservative instead of a slightly larger verson of your pocket rocket. Yes, I think high performance canopies are kickass, hell, maybe I'll eventually get to the skill level have one; however, I will find myself very hard pressed to have a reserve that is close to the same size as one of those. When it comes to reserves, I'm a bit of a canopy nazi, maybe it's because of my size and wanting something that I will be comfortable with when I land off the DZ, at a new DZ or whatever happens landing a reserve and I don't want to come in with the same forward speed that I get when I drive my truck on the freeway. Or maybe its from witnessing someone hook in one day.
Bill, you know I'm not trying to belittle your comments, you flat out know your shit and I respect that. I have a hell of a lot of respect for you as a person and I've never even met you, however, I disagree.
Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.-General George Patton-

[Kelly 0]

when i purchased my new gear buying a cypres wasnt even a question. I had the money to go all out. But even if i didnt, i think that i would have purchased one somehow. I know of at least one friend (a jumper) who would have gladly let me borrow the money for a cypres if i needed it, or let me use one out of his multiple rigs. (he didnt jump b/c of injuries)
3xs this season cyres' deployed reserves b/c of altitude loss w/ jumpers who have over 1,000 jumps at my dz.
im so new to this sport, so inexperienced, that i compare it to a newborn, still with the ambilical cord and all. Im going to lose alitude awareness one day, so much so that its not just 500 feet but actually alot more. I want the cypres for that moment.
I dont think the chances are as great for me gettign knocked out, but who knows. and even if my cypres fires when im unconscious, whos to say that i wont regain consciousness seconds before landing? even if its only enough to give a little rear riser input, a half flare or something.
The facts are there. youre not dead until you hit the ground. Everything from exit to that point are chances to save yourself. Dont forget about those last couple of moments, because they are the most critical. Excuses like "if im unconscious my tiny reserve will be my death anyway.." dont fly with me. A reserve deployment will slow you down dramatically and give you something you didnt have before ~more time, specifically, canopy time, time for you to wake up, gain awareness, whatever. just time to save yourself (possibly)
thats just my .02 cents.
BTW- if i didnt have a cypres to jump with i would still do a jump or two. I'd really consider what type of skydive i was doing and with who, but i would still make a couple of jumps. Accidents can happen anytime, i know that, but thats a risk i would take (just not on a regular basis)
http://kel197.tripod.com/skydivefriendsTRIPOD/html Updated!!

[billvon 3,096]

>Dude, you totally missed my point, or chose to ignore with that comment. You know what I was talking about.
I understood (and agreed with) the rest of your post, which is why that comment stood out.
>I'm the kind of jumper that thinks you should have a reserve that is fairly conservative . . . (and a list of other things like that)
The stuff you listed, to me, sounds like decisions made on the ground to keep yourself _out_ of dangerous situations, like finding yourself flying a PD113 into a stand of trees. Far better to be able to avoid that situation by a) getting a larger reserve, b) opening high enough, c) avoiding the trees than having the skill to land a PD113 in a forest. I think you're saying something similar.
Maybe we're really saying the same things. I cringe when I hear people decide to do stupid things in the air with justifications like "Hey, skydiving's dangerous, so what's your point?" To me, saying "Safety isn't about avoiding dangerous situations" sounds like the same kind of justification. Maybe I misinterpreted your meaning - if so, sorry about that. I sure hope that most skydivers _do_ go out of their way to avoid dangerous situations, and that their skills are sufficient to save them when they find themselves in the rare ones they can't avoid.
-bill von

[AggieDave 6]

I agree with you Bill, I do my best to avoid dangerous situations (ok, the pumpkin was stupid, but hey...), but due to my experience level (100jumps) they sometimes find me. Due to that, I do my best to keep up with whats going on and try to be as safe as I can be. That also includes the safest equipment I can afford/for my skill level. (Yes you're right, I don't jump with a helmet, can't afford one right now, hell I don't even have my own gear yet). Skill level too, I know damn well I can't swoop and I'm no where near the canopy pilot I need to be to even start trying, so I don't, etc. (Check this out: We're having a good discussion here with out flaming/being assholes/etc. Maybe some people who post on the forums should pay attention to the fact that its ok to dissagree but you don't have to attack someone b/c of that.Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.-General George Patton-

[freeflir29 0]

"Maybe some people who post on the forums should pay attention to the fact that its ok to dissagree but you don't have to attack someone b/c of that"
*cough* rgoper *cough*
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[weid14 0]

two hours in the tunnel is now about $350 MORE than a CYPRES.

[MarkM 0]

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Yikes! That's a scary quote. I think safety is all about avoiding dangerous situations.

But you really don't. Exiting the plane in the first place is a dangerous situation that can be avoided by staying on the ground and playing golf.
Exiting the plane "safely" doesn't mean never exiting the plane, it means you recognize all the dangers involved and prepare for them.
Can landing in 25 mph winds be done safely? I can't answer that for everyone, just for me: nope.
But I do think that the guy that lands in 25 mph winds, and has thought out all the problems associated with it, is a safer skydiver than one that sits on the ground and thinks he'll never have to do it himself so he never thinks about how he'd handle it.
It's like the recent discusion on silver reserve handles vs soft pillow ones. Is one type safer than the other? To me it doesn't really matter so much as there was thought behind the decision instead of "that's just what came with the rig".
If most Cypres fires are due to low pulls, then why are they pulling low? What factors are going to cause me to do the same?
Can I avoid those factors or offset them in other safer ways?
If my possble lack of altitude awareness is likely to be caused just by my not paying attention to my visual alt, then an audible may be a better solution than a Cypres.
I'd rather have a beep in my ear remind me to pull at 3k then a Cypres saying "you should've pulled moron" at 1k.
If I'm flying formations and just pulling lower and lower, then maybe a Cypres is the only practical "you should've pulled sooner moron" solution. I can tell myself I'll start pulling higher, but maybe I don't have the discipline to keep it up.
But I don't think everyone should pop a Cypres onto their rigs "just because". There may have been better solutions to magage their risk.

[freeflir29 0]

You guys could bore the shit out of a monk!
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"You guys could bore the shit out of a monk! "
Or...Talk a glass eye to sleep

[lazerq3 0]

I'll just squeek in my answer. Do I think DZ should regulate the use of AADs...NO.. Is it there choice to do so......YES..Do I think thats right.......NO........As for me I do not fly an AAD. My reason is $$$. I feel confedent enough to pull my handles. If I didnt I wouldnt be in the sport. What happens if I go unconcious.......thats simple....if I dont regain I die.......my wife become rich!!!!! Will I ever get an AAD...maybe. But this is MY choice and the risks I accept. As for everyone else I respect your thoughts and your desicions to do what you have to do to feel comfortable and confident in your abilities!!!
jason
jason

[billvon 3,096]

>But you really don't. Exiting the plane in the first place is a dangerous situation that can be avoided by staying on the ground and playing golf.
You can't avoid risk. You can avoid riskier situations, and choose less risky ones. I'm safer doing a hop and pop in typical San Diego weather than I am playing golf during a thunderstorm. That doesn't mean that golf is more dangerous, just that you should avoid golf when it is dangerous (like during a thunderstorm.)
>But I do think that the guy that lands in 25 mph winds, and has thought out all the problems associated with it, is a safer skydiver than
>one that sits on the ground and thinks he'll never have to do it himself so he never thinks about how he'd handle it.
I would argue that the experienced jumper who has landed in 20mph winds several times, and decides to sit out the jump in 25 mph winds, is safest of all. He is using his best protection against injury - his good judgement.
Same with many aspects of the sport. To be an AFF-I you have to be able to really fly, so students never get away from you. The best AFF-I's never need that skill because they do an excellent job of teaching the student to stay near them. They avoid the spinning-student-from-hell by teaching the student to not _be_ a spinning student from hell. If it does still happen, well, they have the skill to deal with it.
An organizer generally has as-good or better flying skills than the people he's organizing. Again, he doesn't rely on that to make the skydive safe. He judges people's flying abilities, their experience, their attitude, and then either designs a dive that will accomodate them or tells them they can't jump with him. Not because he's mean, or because he can't handle it, but because jumping with someone with too little experience is dangerous - and he wants to avoid that situation. By using his good judgement he can avoid it.
>But I don't think everyone should pop a Cypres onto their rigs "just because". There may have been better solutions to magage their risk.
That I agree with. A cypres is never a substitute for good judgement.
-bill von

[Iflyme 0]

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what's your view on jumping with AADs, yes or no?

We've been up and down this a million times, so my answer is "NO... comment"

[Hugo 0]

Whilst on my AFF I saw a pilotchute entanglement, apparently around the throat area, making him blackout, not a bad investment for him that day. He was a freeflyer and I'm not sure how experienced either. One of those jumps I just happen to be watching. Anyway, the incident stuck like glue... I don't think I'd ever feel 'comfortable' jumping without one.

[lazerq3 0]

Did he get a premature deployment or was he just all kinds of unstable when he deployed.??
jason

[harro 0]

Maybe AAD use should be manditory for people of an experience level or maybe canopy size???
ANy thoughts??
Freemind, freesky, freebeer, freefly, freesex

[lazerq3 0]

But how would you justify someone experiance level. I would disagree. I dont think anyone should be forced to use something they may not feel comfortalbe with. Once your off student status and or have your A lic you should be pretty knowledgable in the risks of skydiving and be able to make your own dessicions. I agree with RSLs and AADs for students but thats about it! Just my thoughts
jason

[billvon 3,096]

>But how would you justify someone experiance level.
You just did:
>Once your off student status and or have your A lic you should be pretty knowledgable in the risks of skydiving and be
>able to make your own dessicions.
OK - so the experience level, according to you, is 20 jumps. (Most DZ's consider someone a student until they get their A.) Seems pretty reasonable. You could probably make an argument for anywhere between 7 (off direct supervision) to 50 (B license.)
-bill von

[cloud9 0]

Skydiving is all about risk management. There are many ways to manage the risks involved. Most of them brought up in this thread. Sometimes the best way to manage a risk is to eliminate it. Some times its equipment or just a thought process. A freeflyer may make sure he/she has a freefly friendly rig or maybe they jump a cobalt which is supposed to be able to be deployed at greater speeds. A low time jumper uses larger canopies and doesn't turn low, an older jumper may use a larger canopy or reserve. A low time jumper stays away from big ways. Some folks wear a dytter or even two altimeters. Some a full face helmet. Some folks elect not to jump under certain circumstances that other people are not even bothered by. As you can see not everyone uses all of the equipment available, its risk management. Some folks use a cypress. I have one in my rig, but have jumped many times without one. Its one of the risk management tools I use. I would not want to force someone to use one, anymore then I would want to force people to use the safty equipment above. It is and should be personal choice. where would we draw the line? Everyone has to jump a 200 sq.ft. canopy main and reserve cause its safer. No swoops to dangerous. No bigways, not more then 3 freeflyers, everyone in a full face helmet. Two altimeters and a dytter. Everyone type 8 risers with big rings the list goes on and on. who makes the decision? It must remain personal choice.

[lazerq3 0]

But you also have to look at that most jumpers under under twenty jumps are still renting gear which in which the rig already has an AAD or you can choose to rent one w/an AAD if one is w/out. So yeah I would say an aad would be good to have through your first 20 jumps. But I'm sure theres argument in that. So what to do!!!!Also it doesnt matter wheather you have 2000 jumps or 20 jumps. If a jumper with 2000 jumps has his first cutaway, he will have as much experiance at it as with a jumper with 20 jumps. A first is a first. It doesnt matter how many jumps you have. I dont know....am I wrong in thinking this??
jason

[cloud9 0]

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If a jumper with 2000 jumps has his first cutaway, he will have as much experiance at it as with a jumper with 20 jumps. A first is a first. It doesnt matter how many jumps you have. I dont know....am I wrong in thinking this??

I would be inclined to disagree with this on several fronts. A person with 2000 jumps has seen line twist, off heading openings, maybe had a brake come unstowed and has flown his canopy in all sorts of conditions. He most likely has had a cutaway too, the odds are you would, but there are some out there that haven't. The person with 20 jumps my not have even been in a hard turn yet. I would think the person with 2000 jumps would have a huge advantage over a low time jumper.

[MarkM 0]

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Maybe AAD use should be manditory for people of an experience level or maybe canopy size???
ANy thoughts??

Problem with that is I don't think it's a good measurement of needing a Cypres.
A Cypres on a student is good because they may not pull. But once you're off student status, you should have demonstrated you have that ability(or there's something seriously wrong with the student program).
Now you might be more likely to pull lower than your planned altitude, but then you should have a higher "deck" than experienced jumpers anyway to compesenate for your newness.
So who needs the Cypres more? A 20 jump graduate who you know can pull, will likely be jumping alone and have a deployment altitude of 4k, or a 500 jump guy who works a lot with other people in the sky and just starts to breaks off at that altitude?

[lazerq3 0]

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A person with 2000 jumps has seen line twist, off heading openings, maybe had a brake come unstowed and has flown his canopy in all sorts of conditions

But what my piont is is that all the aboved mentioned had nothing to do with a cutaway. It does matter how many linetwist, hard turns or what ever they've seen a cutaway is a cutaway. Just becuase I've seen say 1000 line twists in my 2000 jump career doesnt mean I would be experanced in a chop situation. A first is a first !
Michele had more experaince with a chop on her third skydive than any jumper with 1000 jumps and no chop . why? because shes been there! This is the point I'm trying to make.
jason

[cloud9 0]

well Jason unless your point is just pulling the handles I don't see it. I mean you could put a wuffo in a harness and have them cutaway 500 times. They would have more experience in the actual pulling of the handles then most skydiviers, but not in how to handle a malfuntion. You could easly teach a Chimp to just pull the handles. That's the easy part. The hard part is knowing what type of malfunction you have and when to pull the handles. Michele was a good example. Having read her post, she had no idea what type of malfunction she had. (no offense Michele you did well for your experience level) would someone with 2000 jumps even had chopped that main? They would have known what was wrong with it, and would have known if a reserve ride was neccessary. There is a lot more to a cutaway then just pulling handles. I've had two, and from experience I can tell you the easy part was pulling the handles. My second mal I broke both steering lines. With my limited experience at the time I thought I broke a lot more lines then that. After I got on the ground I was surprised to find only the two steering lines broke. With the cascades it looked like a lot of lines up there trailing behind my canopy. Someone with 2000 jumps may have been able to land that canopy and would not have even chopped.
You will also find that many a student has chopped a good main for some strange reasons. So I still say experience has a huge advantage, but of course that's just an oppinion and who's to say whats right or wrong

[lazerq3 0]

Ok .......I guess my point was jsut about pulling handles, and I see what your saying about not just pulling handles but being able to recognize the situation and whether its chop time or fix it time, in which yes the more experianced would have the advantage. Guess I just need to think a little bit more before I speak.
SO MUCH TO LEARN!!!!!!!!!!jason

[E150 0]

I would like to hope that if I ever got knocked out in freefall, I wake up on the ground under a lovely while reserve.
(OK, so there may be a few broken bones)