LawnDart21 0 #1 January 16, 2002 The "Where are you from?" post mentioned Spaceland and whether they required an AAD. I'm just wondering as to the general concensus of people as to what your view is on jumping with an AAD. Personally, I jump with a Cypres, but have made a handful of video jumps without it. All things being equal, I don't like jumping without it, especially because I skysurf and there is always that fear in my mind of possibly blacking out while in a flat spin. I can see why a pond swooper may choose not to use one, typically exiting solo and with the inevitable chow always looming..... The best excuse I heard for not jumping an AAD came from a jumper I know with thousands of jumps. I asked him if he chose not to jump with a cypres because he'd been jumping for 30 years and had all kinds of experience, and felt confident that he could protect himself. His answer was "No that's not it at all. I jump a 99 Main and have a 109 Reserve, if I get knocked out and have a cypres fire, and come in on a 109 without a flair.....are you kidding me?.......forget that. There wouldn't be anything left of me." That was the most viable arguement I had heard to date for not jumping an AAD. Anyways, the gaunlet has been cast, what's your view on jumping with AADs, yes or no?Blue Skies to all and to all a goog flightTom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottbre 0 #2 January 16, 2002 Oh man, this has been argued into the ground (pun intended) before. Do a search on the forum search, you should find lots of stuff. "Can't keep my mind from the circling sky. Tongue-tied & twisted just an earth-bound misfit, I." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #3 January 16, 2002 "Do a search on the forum search"Please........"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheMarshMan1 0 #4 January 16, 2002 I'm personally of the thinking that anything to enhance safety is a good thing. So, I almost always jump with a cypres (but no RSL....and thats a whole different story thats also been beat into the ground). Whats this guy mean by, "There wouldnt be anything left of me." There sure as hell would be a lot more left than if he didnt have anything out. That just doesnt make much sense to me I guess. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #5 January 16, 2002 i would love to express my opinion on this subject, but i'm sure to be criticized for it, so i'll pass. but for the record, i fly with one.Richard"Gravity Is My Friend" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #6 January 16, 2002 "but i'm sure to be criticized for it"Most likely...."I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #7 January 16, 2002 Quote Anyways, the gaunlet has been cast, what's your view on jumping with AADs, yes or no?As a student I jumped with FXC's or Astras or something. All I know is that I would've preferred to jump without those antiques than with them, even as a student.When I finish building my rig it'll probably have a Cypres. Probably, because there may be other things I decide to spend my money on. Do I buy a Cypres or an audible that'll back up my visual alt and help prevent low pulls?Do I buy a Cypres or spend a grand on tunnel time which will help guarantee I'm always stable on deployment?Do I buy a Cypres or a good leather armored jacket that'll save my ass when I wipe out on my motorcycle?You own a Cypres for safety reasons.When was the last time you practiced reserve pulls on the harness? When was the last time you went over in your head what you'd do in various emergency situations? How frequently do you have your rigger inspect your gear for defects?A Cypres doesn't make you safe, only you can. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #8 January 16, 2002 Agree with everyone else this was hammered to death recently...btw AADs are NOT manadatory at Spaceland."All things being equal, I don't like jumping without it, especially because I skysurf and there is always that fear in my mind of possibly blacking out while in a flat spin."I heard that a flat spin can generate enough lift to 'fool' the cypres. I think this is what happened to Chris Gauge in Spain, but don't know for sure.The only excuse for not having an AAD is money, but I do have a friend that feels that they interfere with natural selection and are therefore a bad idea in an already shallow gene pool...For the record I have one, but am prepared to jump (and have done so) without it, eg if its away on a service...D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #9 January 16, 2002 I don't have a Cypres on my rig. In fact I've never had an AAD on any of my rigs; the only times I've jumped with one have been when I was a student (FXC's), on demo gear and when I did tandems. As far as I'm concerned the only time a Cypres is going to be useful to me would be if I were knocked unconcious in freefall. If I had one and it saved me for any other reason I'd be hanging up my gear.Two reasons I don't have one - first is cost. That's a lot of skydives and I'm a broke puppy! Second is that I started jumping before Cypres'. I am pretty confident that I can pull my own handles if need be, and I've accepted the fact that if I get knocked out in freefall I'm dead.I will likely have one installed in my rig prior to being on any really big RW jumps (100 ways...) or get nito more than two ways freeflying though.pull and flare,lisa-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 7 #10 January 16, 2002 Quote When was the last time you practiced reserve pulls on the harness?When was the last time you practiced pulling your reserve handle while unconcious? When was the last time you practiced pulling your reserve handle with both shoulders dislocated? There are more reasons for having a Cypres (not just an AAD) that haven't been thought of yet than arguements against having one. What's your life worth? Oh, and as for tunnel time guaranteeing you will always pull stable then you need to see the thread in the safety section of DZ.com and look under "Low Pull". There are no guarantees. There's always the "other" guy who can take you out.Chris SchindlerD-19012ATP/CFIIwww.DiverDriver.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,091 #11 January 16, 2002 >I don't have a Cypres on my rig. In fact I've never had an AAD on any of my rigs; the only times I've jumped with one >have been when I was a student (FXC's), on demo gear and when I did tandems. As far as I'm concerned the only time a>Cypres is going to be useful to me would be if I were knocked unconcious in freefall. >If I had one and it saved me for any other reason I'd be hanging up my gear.I know that's the main reason people get them, but statistically it's the least likely reason you'll need it. People go low for the stupidest reasons. I did a four-way once with three extremely experienced jumpers. Two had cypres firings. One was an AFF-I / S+TA and one was an AFF-JM. On one record attempt, I watched two experienced jumpers wave their arms at each other and yell for the other one to clear their airspace until their cypreses fired. There have been very experienced four-way teams whose altimeters failed, and who had four nearly simultaneous cypres firings. It can happen to anyone.I would like to believe that I, too, will only need it if I get knocked out. But looking at myself objectively I think that this is the order of likeliness:-Unwillingness to abandon a student-Loss of altitude awareness-Disability (broken arm, entanglement)-UnconsciousnessThat being said, they're good to have. I have one on my main rig, and after an incident a few years ago, I'm very glad most of the people I jump with have one, too. If I hear a recent grad saying "Yeah, I'll get one in case I get knocked out" then at least he's getting one - even if that's likely not the reason he'll need it.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rendezvous 0 #12 January 16, 2002 Well what about if by chance his reserve catches some wind, which it will, and drifts him over a bunch of trees and puts him down there, his canopy might get entangled in the branches and may be he lives on, probably with a borken bone or two but alive. Now thats a lot of may be I know, but when it's your life don't you think it's probably worth going for the may be. Imagine if all those who've survived very low pulls in a very tight spot and we have an example it in this forum too, decided not to take the chance and try for the may be ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #13 January 16, 2002 Good points bill. I hadn't considered the disability angle. I have thought about losing altitude awareness; I feel that were I to be saved by a Cypres because I went low that's the time for me to seriously consider getting out of the sport. What bugs me about the whole Cypres debate is that some people feel that just because they have a Cypres they are a safe skydiver. In this sport you're only as safe as you make yourself, and even if you do everything right you can still die.All that said, I will have one on my rig in the future. Guess I'll just cross my fingers that I don't need one before then! pull and flare,lisa-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #14 January 16, 2002 Tunnel time "gauranteeing a stable deployment"?That's pretty funny, I never deployed while I was in the tunnel, so I'll have to take your word on that one! LOLI see your point, but honestly, nothing can gaurantee a stable deployment. And if you think about, two hours in the tunnel is about the same price as a Cypres.Blue Skies to all, and to all a good flight!Tom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mountainman 0 #15 January 16, 2002 Quote "In this sport you're only as safe as you make yourself, and even if you do everything right you can still die."-da BytchThat is an EXCELLENT point, Lisa. You hit the nail on the head with that one. JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #16 January 16, 2002 Quote That's pretty funny, I never deployed while I was in the tunnelDamn, that would be a funny video...deploying in a tunnel...*pull..linestretch..WHAMMP!* (the sound of you flying into the wall/celing due to your canopy.Seriously, though, if I could afford one right now, well, if I had my own rig, actually, I would jump with one. No offense, but the arguement about the super small reserve and coming in hard unconcious has to be the stupidest reason I have ever hear in my life. Come on, I think that my life is more important to me then having a super small reserve and no-cypress. We could all save time and play chicken with a train instead.Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.-General George Patton- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #17 January 16, 2002 Quote Tunnel time "gauranteeing a stable deployment"?That's pretty funny, I never deployed while I was in the tunnel, so I'll have to take your word on that one! LOLPoint was that safety is choices. You want the most safety? Don't skydive. Now if I buy a Cypres, I lose money I could've spent on tunnel time. Tunnel work will teach a student stability. A great way to prevent a mal is to be stable during deployment.The FXC I had on my 5th student jump sure as hell didn't help me when I flipped during deployment and ended up with my legs tangled in the lines of my deploying main. Only stability would've prevented that.You want the Cypres, fine. I want to be able to go from an unstable tumble into a stable arch in a heartbeat.That doesn't make me less concerned about safety. Quote When was the last time you practiced pulling your reserve handle while unconcious? When was the last time you practiced pulling your reserve handle with both shoulders dislocated? There are more reasons for having a Cypres (not just an AAD) that haven't been thought of yet than arguements against having one.A Cypres certainly helps reduce, not eliminate, a fatality resulting from the above situations.So will wearing a helmet, jumping solo, and not getting an arm caught in the lines of your deploying chute. Quote What's your life worth? Stupid quote. You make sacrifices in your safety every jump, because maybe you're not wearing a helmet, or maybe you don't have an audible as a backup for altitude awareness, or maybe your reserve is less than a 1:1 ratio, or maybe because you're jumping with others, or maybe because you're wearing a camera, or maybe because you briefly exceed speeds were an accidental reserve deployment kills, or maybe because you don't prep for a PLF each and every landing, or maybe because your equipment isn't this year's model or maybe because you exited the plane in anything other than a conservative manner, or maybe you smoke or drink alcohol and are more prone to mild hypoxia, or maybe you don't double tie your shoe laces, etc.Safety isn't about avoiding dangerous situations. It's about understanding all the dangers involved and being prepared for them.A Cypes can be a part of that, but it isn't the end all be all of safety equipment some people like to make it out to be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indyz 1 #18 January 16, 2002 Quote I feel that were I to be saved by a Cypres because I went low that's the time for me to seriously consider getting out of the sport. That's better than having to leave the sport because you are dead.--BrianHomepage Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #19 January 16, 2002 "That's better than having to leave the sport because you are dead."Not necessarily......"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,091 #20 January 16, 2002 >No offense, but the arguement about the super small reserve and coming in hard unconcious has to be the stupidest reason I have ever hear in my life. I don't think that's such a stupid reason. If you're buying an AAD "in case you get knocked out" it's rendered almost pointless by installing it in a rig with a PD113. One of the funniest things I heard at PIA 2001 was Sandy Reid describing the rig he built for Luigi - he had to make the rig larger to fit a Cypres in it. First off, I don't really think that a Tekno 98 is going to save your life if you're unconscious, and second, when you're jumping a rig that you can't even take to terminal with a 46 sq foot main and a 98 sq foot reserve - I don't think it's the lack of an AAD that's going to kill you.If you really, honestly believe that the only time you may need an AAD is if you're unconscious, do it right and either buy a large square reserve or a round. Both will do a much better job of landing you when unconscious.Of course, history has shown that most AAD fires are just due to people going low, so you may well survive an AAD firing even with a tiny reserve. But if that's what you want an AAD for, at least admit that to yourself, so you're making a decision based on the facts.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #21 January 16, 2002 Quote A Cypes can be a part of that, but it isn't the end all be all of safety equipment some people like to make it out to be. Agree 100% with you on that Mark!! Quote That's better than having to leave the sport because you are dead.I can die in a plane crash, I can die from a hook turn (not likely),I can die in a canopy collision, I can die driving to or from work each weekday (considering where I drive, more likely than going in after losing alti awareness), I can die walking down the sidewalk. In none of those cases will a Cypres be of any help to me. I choose to skydive and for the moment I choose to skydive without an AAD. I know the risks I'm taking and I accept those risks. pull and flare,lisa-- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,091 #22 January 16, 2002 >Safety isn't about avoiding dangerous situations. It's about understanding all the dangers involved and being prepared for them.Yikes! That's a scary quote. I think safety is all about avoiding dangerous situations. Watch what the experienced jumpers do when the winds are gusting to 25 at the dropzone. Notice them sitting out the next load? They're not doing that because the 200 jump wonders still jumping are better canopy pilots - they're doing it because they know that it's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than vice versa. Sure, canopy skills are important if you have to land in really bad winds - but avoiding the really bad winds is a much better choice.About 75% of what makes up a safe skydive happens before you ever get in the plane. Your gear choices, your emergency skills, your decisions on with who, where, when, and why you jump, the maintenance on the plane you're using, your packing skills - they all come into play. The time to decide that your main closing loop is too worn is on the ground, not at 8000 feet when you notice your container open. The time to decide that Joe Fullback isn't a very good skydiver after all is during the dirt dive, not a second before he barrels into you at 40mph.The other 25% is your performance in the air, your reaction to emergencies, your ability to dodge. But those things are in no way replacements for your judgement on the ground. The good judgement to avoid situations that are too risky is your best weapon against the possibility of injury or death.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #23 January 16, 2002 Boys and girls, we are all missing the bigger picture here. If you check the documented saves, the majority are no / lo pulls.Granted, the unconcious (fek ra spelin') and dislocation issues are relevant, but sooner or later we all go low, reagardless of our best intentions.....http://www.pia.com/SSK/saves02b.htmCheck it out, it makes good reading......Ah, sorry, Bill von covered this whilst I was composing.......D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #24 January 16, 2002 I don't jump one cos I mostly do solos and i can't FINANCIALLY afford it. I'll get one when I can afford one Support the cause - do a skydive(r) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #25 January 16, 2002 "I think safety is all about avoiding dangerous situations. "100% correct, IMHO, we apply the same principles in my proffession (safety engineer for oil, petrochemical, mining, and power generation industries).D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
