Aw Geez You Gotta Be Kidding Me

[Zennie 0]

Johnny Cochran? Jeez! First Jesse Jackson does a 401K march, now Mr. "If It Doesn't Fit, You Must Aquit" is going to represent us in the 401K litigation? Greeeaaat!
Will you people please go away? You're not part of the solution, you're part of the friggin problem! AAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!
Breathe... in....out....in....out....
OK I'm better....
No I'm not! ARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[PalmettoTiger 1]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAahahahahahahaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!
He does 1-800-COLLECT commercials now, doesn't he?
I'm stepping through the door
And I'm floating in a most peculiar way

[ADRNALN 0]

Great now we are going to "protected" from our selfs. I actually had a discussion with one of our operating company HR people and that was exactly what she said we should be doing, at which point I almost lost it. Give me a break that is the idea of a 401k, personal responsibility and choice. But I do agree that companies should not direct matching funds into company stock and should never market the company stock to the employees.
What ever happen to "It was my mistake?"

[Zennie 0]

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What ever happen to "It was my mistake?"

First off, I've pretty much written off my Enron 401K. It wasn't $500K, but it was a lot as far as I'm concerned.
As far as the personal responsibility thing goes, I'm pretty much in agreement, the thing that makes me inclined to opt in is the fact that managment (and perhaps their auditors) engaged in active fraud to artificially inflate the stock's value. Then while things started getting rocky, they go on a selling spree all the while telling us "our company's core business is still strong, our stock is a great buy right now". We had absolutely no idea how bad things were until it was too late.
Taking a loss on the open market is one thing...I'm certainly not running out to sue the companies managing my mutual funds...but getting scammed by a bunch of criminals is something altogether different. In my mind Enron's conduct falls in the latter category.
Like I said, I know I'm not going to see much of that money again, but I don't like being conned.
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[Zennie 0]

Just came up with an analogy that might clarify where I'm coming from.
Say you're a sailor on a ship that's taken some damage. You know there's a leak. The captain comes on the intercom and says "Don't worry, everything's under control. You don't need to leave your stations. We'll have this fixed in no time." Meanwhile, the captain and his staff, knowing the true severity of the damage, prepare their own personal lifeboat.
Right before the ship goes down, they bail, while the poor slobs who listened to and trusted their captain, go down with the ship.
Who's fault was it that the sailors drowned?
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[ADRNALN 0]

Thats the key to the problem, the "creative" accounting and shell game they were playing with their debt. Did Enron push the company stock as an option in the 401k?(Zennie please don't think my post was directed to you, it was directed toward the knee jerk reaction it restrict personal choice) It is sad to hear about good companies being driven down the wrong road by management. I was at Amoco when BP bought us, another example of the execs making out like bandits while the majority of the company suffers.
At least the new CEO sounds quite upbeat about the chances of a turnaround. I will be putting part of my bonus, what little I get, this year into Enron and Kmart. My Disclaimer is: I am a Cubs Fan so I in it for the long haul.

[Zennie 0]

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Did Enron push the company stock as an option in the 401k

Yeah they pushed the stock. You could either purchase stock or participate in one of several mutual funds as part of your 401K.. I rolled my existing 401K from previous employment into Enron stock & then made my contribution go to mutual funds.
Now Enron would *only* match in Enron stock. There was no chouce in the matter. That's where I think things are going to change. A company should match whatever you're contrinuting into.
Right now Enron isn't trading (NYSE blackballed 'em). So those shares I hold are effectively worthless. Thus my inclination to participate in the suit. Now if for whatever reason this guy manages to turn things around enough to get the stock trading again, I'll opt out of the suit because if that happens, the shares aren't irrevocably lost and it becomes a legit gamble again. I'm willing to take those odds if they get to the point of trading again.
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[ADRNALN 0]

Zennie:
I am in totally agreement. And I was very disturbed by the way management was telling the employees one thing, we have never been stronger, and then on the other hand they are cashing out of the stock locking in big profits.
I hope they prosecute the execs who were misleading the employees and the public investors.

[ADRNALN 0]

Enron stock should still be trading in the OTC(over the counter) markets. I understand that is not consultation but at least there is an avenue for the public to show support for the restructuring attempt.

[jfields 0]

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I will be putting part of my bonus, what little I get, this year into Enron and Kmart. My Disclaimer is: I am a Cubs Fan so I in it for the long haul.

I understand about the long haul, but I'd watch out for investing in companies that may simply never recover. Never is a really, really long time.
Part of any company is reputation. I'd have to say that Enron's reputation is worse than Johnson & Johnson's was in the midst of the Tylenol scare. Whether they are officially convicted or not, who wants to do business with a bunch of crooks? Not to mention, after all the financial shenanigans are taken away, what ongoing operations at Enron are worth keeping or partnering with?
As for Kmart, things are different. No scandals, accounting fraud or document shredding, but maybe just a dying company. Sometimes companies can get so far behind in their strategy and operational implementation that they make a gradual slide into complete irrelevance. I used to work for a company called Hechinger. They were a home improvement chain. They existed long before Home Depot and Lowes, and were once a Wall Street darling. But they couldn't adapt, largely due to incompetant management. End result: bankruptcy and complete liquidation.
Sometimes you can catch a good company fallen on hard times and make a bundle on the recovery. Many, many other times, you can buy up some shares, then use them for wallpaper when they become worthless. Of course, you should do as you want, but my money wouldn't end up in either Kmart or Enron. For me, the risk far outweighs my estimate of their chances of success.
Good luck.
Justin
PS I'm not trying to be insulting in any way. I've learned some of this through personal mistakes. I have some shares I'll sell you... cheap!

[Zennie 0]

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Whether they are officially convicted or not, who wants to do business with a bunch of crooks?

I think before anyone will be willing to bet on Enron again they are pretty much going to have to do a complete housecleaning as far as management goes. It's the only way faith can be restored in the company.
Of course that begs the question, what will be left to resurrect?
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[wildblue 7]

Just do what everyone else is doing - sell anything Enron related you have on Ebay.
No, seriously! Do a search on Ebay for Enron, you'll find tons of stuff!
Ok, all joking aside, I do feel for you. That has to really suck. I've lost a job twice in my life due to a comapny closing (closed once, got bought another time) and that sucked bad enough, and I didn't even lose multiple thousands of dollars in retirement $$
Did you know that "if" is the middle of the word "life"?

[jfields 0]

I agree with you, Zennie. And much of the knowledge (and therefore value) of any company rests with the employees. With good companies, there is a careful process of retaining that knowledge through personnel turnover. People train their successors and management actually knows how the "grunts" of the business do their work so they can lead by example and get new employees productive.
Enron would need a wholesale turnover to remove the "bad apples" and restore some minimal confidence, but then nobody would be left who knew anything about the business. Tough dilemma.
As you said, what would be left to resurrect?
Justin

[ADRNALN 0]

I understand the high risk involved in both of these companies and in fact it would be more like a going to the track type investment. But goofy as it seems, I would feel a sense of helping to show some convidence in the company and in a small way protect other jobs. I understand in reality I may be buying cute wallpaper. I also bought heavily on the first open market after 9/11, just trying to do my part (more of the goofy teamplayer side of me)

[ADRNALN 0]

There is no way there won't be a complete management turnover (double negative). That should be a given and in fact the new CEO has done that before.

[jfields 0]

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I understand the high risk involved

That sounds like it could belong in the gear forum in a thread on Cypres and RSLs. Well, as long as you are aware of the risks (unlike unfortunate Enron employees), make your own decision.
Justin

[ADRNALN 0]

Its kind of like giving to charity but with a far out of the money option that just might payoff but if it does not it is expendable money (homerun money LOL) - To be honest the chances are I will end up spending it on skydiving instead, go figure both risky ventures though skydiving is most likely the least risky of the two.
Trust me I'm not a "Money" magazine daytrader. I oversee a sizable amount of retirement assets for a fortune500 company and my background goes all the way back to the CBOT as a market reporter during college. But I am thankful for the concern its nice to see someone in the industry (I am guessing here) looking out for the individual investor, THNX.