Member or Not.....

[PhreeZone 20]

This is taken from an issue that is alwas hottly contested, but since the USPA General Meeting is not far off, I figured that its time to be addressed again.
Would you rather Jump at a USPA Group Member Dropzone or a Non-Member DZ if all things were equal or close to equal(Planes, people, Landing area)

Group Member or Not?
Group Member no matter what
Group Member
No real difference
Non-member DZ
Non-member DZ no matter what

I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[Jimbo 0]

Let's heat things up a bit. Maybe someone who's been around a while can let us in on the benefits and downside of Group Membership.
Personally, I'll jump anywhere I feel safe. I don't believe that Group Membership automatically makes one DZ safer than the next, nor do I believe that not being a Group Member makes a DZ unsafe. That said, I think I'll go and vote "No real difference"

[PhreeZone 20]

This is a break down of the GM program from all that I've ever heard.....
Basically GM lets the DZ get their name in Parachutist, use the UPSA as a lobbying group if needed and can use the USPA lawyers in Airport Access issues if needed. Their are other things, but none most skydivers will see.
What is required of the DZ is an Annual Fee (Fee is based on size of the DZ. Can be from like 1-200 for a 182 DZ to like 500+ for a bigger DZ), an agreement to follow the BSR's and an agreement to only allow current (dues paid) USPA or USPA equal Foriegn jumpers jump at thier DZ. If the jumper has an expired membership, they must either renew or are not allowed to jump there. The DZ must also have only fully rated instructors with students. The new ISP is being rolled out to the DZ's soon. Those with out RATED coaches are going to need Instructors to jump with non licenced students to get thier A licence. (Jumpmasters are no more under the new ISP)
My read on this is the USPA is trying to act like two seperate groups. One that is fighting for skydiver's, and one that is fighting for the DZO's/DZ's. There are a lot of issues where both are on the same side, but also a lot where they are 180 degrees apart. In most instances in the past the USPA seems to side with the DZO's/DZ's.
Forcing an instructor to jump with a "graduate" is going to make the jumper have to pay for the slot since few instructors want to jumpmaster for free. This fee must be passed back to the student in the form of a "Coaching Fee". The Group Membership cost has to be passed onto every jumper too through jump ticket costs. There are lots of other cons to the GM program, but I'll let others bring them up.
I'm not saying the USPA is a bad organization or anything, without them, we probally would'nt be jumping. My take on the whole thing is the GM program is a waste and needs trashed. If the DZO's want an organization, let them start thier own group. Then the 2 groups could work to a compromize on issues that are causing conflicts between jumpers and DZ's.
Mike Mullins and Gary Peek are talking about this issue at the General Members Meeting in a few weeks. Mike is totally against the program, he said that a few times in his campign and his DZ's are not GM's. If you feel anything at all about this issue in either direction, write to Gary or Mike and let them know your feeling. Include your UPSA # in the email or letter so they can present them if needed to the whole BOD. I'm sending my email out this weekend and hope everyone else will too.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[Jumperpaula 0]

Ok, looks like Im the only group member no matter what so far.
Im an Insurance Agent and a County and State Political Delegate.
After September 11th, we should all appreciate the power of a group, a strong lobby and strong leadership. Plus, we have the power (as voters) to change the leadership with the needs and direction of the organization.
I don't believe my voice is heard as "one". I need the leaders with knowledge, connections, skill and experience to make the right decisions for the sport. Im not qualified or capable.
I believe in USPA. Plus, I strongly believe in holding elected officials ACCOUNTABLE for the decisions and actions they make.
Fly Your Slot !

[PhreeZone 20]

Ok... I thought this might happen. I'm not sure that many people (myself included) can really tell the difference between where the Group Membership ends and the Skydiver's organization starts. The USPA is a great organization, to a point.
Do you agree that just because a DZ is a non Group member they can't have an article about them or a record at their DZ published in Parachutist? How about only letting GM's advertise in Parachutist? Using a lot of the members money to host a Group Members/ DZO's Meeting in Orlando then canceling it due to a lack of people coming? This is some of the stuff the GM program lets happen in a skydivers organization. The GM program makes it a Member vs Non-member environment. And those types of feelings are tearing some DZ's apart. If your not a member then the members can and do advertise that they are a "safer" place to jump or learn to jump. And the USPA lets the DZ's advertise using thier name wthout saying a word about it. Can anyone tell me how spending $1-200 on the Group Membership makes you instantly safer then another place?
I fully believe one of the reasons Mike won was becasue of his stance on the GM program.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[Jumperpaula 0]

This is a great topic an requires some logical thought.
Fly Your Slot !

[freefallfreak 0]

[pssssst...boobies]
FFF

[skybytch 273]

My thoughts...

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If the jumper has an expired membership, they must either renew or are not allowed to jump there.

Which serves to protect the DZO and every jumper on the dz - the biggest benefit of individual membership is the insurance coverage. I'd be pretty bummed if a non-member swooped into my car then couldn't or wouldn't pay for the repairs after paying for his own medical bills.

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The DZ must also have only fully rated instructors with students.

And that's a bad thing? Generally a rated instructor knows wtf they are doing as they've had to prove their knowledge and skills prior to getting the rating.

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My read on this is the USPA is trying to act like two seperate groups. One that is fighting for skydiver's, and one that is fighting for the DZO's/DZ's.

Without DZ's and DZO's, we have no place to jump; imho what concerns a DZO in most cases also concerns me, even if only indirectly. DZO's are generally skydivers too; skydivers who have invested their own money and time into providing us with a place where we can go play and who therefore have a larger stake in the matter than does Joe or Jane Average Jumper. If the aim of USPA is to keep jumpers jumping, I don't see any reason the organization shouldn't support dropzones and dropzone owners. I just don't see the conflict here.

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There are a lot of issues where both are on the same side, but also a lot where they are 180 degrees apart. In most instances in the past the USPA seems to side with the DZO's/DZ's.

What issues?

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Forcing an instructor to jump with a "graduate" is going to make the jumper have to pay for the slot since few instructors want to jumpmaster for free. This fee must be passed back to the student in the form of a "Coaching Fee".

Why should any instructor, jumpmaster, coach, whatever you want to call them, work for nothing? They spent plenty of their money and time gaining the skills needed to get the ratings. They spend money every year renewing those ratings. Some of them are trying to support themselves on those ratings.
Skydiving is expensive. Learning to skydive safely by oneself and with others is even more expensive. That's the way it is. Nowhere in the new ISP is it required that anyone do coached jumps beyond their A license. Sure the new ISP requirements make it more expensive to get from jump 1 to an A license but the novices completing the new program should be coming up with far better survival and flying skills than they did when I learned to jump. This is not a bad thing; this gives us more, safer and better new jumpers to go play with.

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The Group Membership cost has to be passed onto every jumper too through jump ticket costs.

So does the price of fuel, aircraft maintainence and dz improvements (i.e. bathrooms instead of portapotties, airconditioned and/or covered packing areas instead of grass or dirt, etc). I've jumped at both GM and non-GM DZ's. Jump prices were basically the same at both.

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I'm not saying the USPA is a bad organization or anything, without them, we probally would'nt be jumping.

No probably about it. Without USPA there would be no legal skydiving in the US. Angry mothers of dead students would have taken care of that long before the majority of us started jumping.

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My take on the whole thing is the GM program is a waste and needs trashed. If the DZO's want an organization, let them start thier own group. Then the 2 groups could work to a compromize on issues that are causing conflicts between jumpers and DZ's

An organization for DZ's/DZO's will just create more politics. There's enough of that crap in this sport already. It's hard enough to get two skydivers to agree on any one thing; imagine trying to get two different organizations, both made up of opinionated Type A personality skydivers, to agree.
This oughta be a fun thread!
pull and flare,
lisa
--
Life is tough, but I'm tougher

[scottbre 0]

Couple questions. Maybe I just missed it, but was is ISP? Secondly how are the new rules going to affect someone like me who is already halfway through my s/l progression?
"Let the rabbits wear glasses. . . "

[Jimbo 0]

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My take on the whole thing is the GM program is a waste and needs trashed. If the DZO's want an organization, let them start thier own group. Then the 2 groups could work to a compromize on issues that are causing conflicts between jumpers and DZ's

What would the organization lobbying for jumpers and not DZOs do? Provide insurance? Anything else?

Quote

Forcing an instructor to jump with a "graduate" is going to make the jumper have to pay for the slot since few instructors want to jumpmaster for free. This fee must be passed back to the student in the form of a "Coaching Fee". The Group Membership cost has to be passed onto every jumper too through jump ticket costs. There are lots of other cons to the GM program, but I'll let others bring them up.

I agree, this needs to be rethought. I've talked with people who have 'achieved' the coaches rating. I'm not impressed with what they went through - they shelled out some $$$ and they got a rating in return. I know coaches who I wouldn't want with someone fresh off AFF and I know just everyday jumpers who have so much information, knowledge, skill, and wisdom to pass along to new jumpers who CAN'T because they don't have the silly rating.
It's already been mentioned, but I think this is going to be fun.

[PhreeZone 20]

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And that's a bad thing? Generally a rated instructor knows wtf they are doing as they've had to prove their knowledge and skills prior to getting the rating.

It was my take that you now have to have a coach or Instructor (Non tandem) sign off on the A card all the stuff that is not in your AFF progression. What I don't like about that is now people have to get rated just to sign something like a log book. Lisa, that means if you and your son (After his aff) do a 2 way and he does a diving exit, docks, and does vertical movements, they don;t count since you are not a rated coach. Sure untill you graduate student status, you need to be with some sort of rated instructor. But having "evaluation" dives that are pass/fail with a "coach" just does'nt seem right....
As for one of the issues where jumpers and DZO's clash is airplane saftey, Jumpers want the safest possible planes they can get, DZO's want what is going to let them have the highest profit margin. They will maintain it just to the FAA Airworthlyness directives. Sure jumpers can take thier business other places, but how about those jumpers that are hours from another DZ? What do they do?
How about a certian DZ that is a GM but unless you graduated from his student program, you are not allowed to jump there? I'd say thats a really clear case of jumpers vs DZO. USPA is aware of this and as far as I know has never taken any action on it.
And as for another organization, you are right, that may be too far, how about another branch of our own organization that focus on all DZO's and their concerns? But make it a non pay to play branch?
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[skybytch 273]

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Do you agree that just because a DZ is a non Group member they can't have an article about them or a record at their DZ published in Parachutist?

Parachutist isn't the only magazine for skydivers in the US. And I have seen articles about and pictures of events held at non-GM dz's in Parachutist.

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How about only letting GM's advertise in Parachutist?

Gear dealers, manufacturers, etc aren't GM's...

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If your not a member then the members can and do advertise that they are a "safer" place to jump or learn to jump.

Any dropzone can advertise that they are "safer" than another, group member or not, just like any manufacturer can claim that their canopy/rig/helmet/whatever is "safer" than the rest. That's marketing. Not necessarily ethical, but it happens.
You're right, being a group member does not make a dz a safe place. Shit happens and it can happen even if the dz is doing everything right. To me a dz being a group member means that DZ/DZO is supporting the organization that is working to keep me in the air. And to me that's a good thing.
pull and flare,
lisa
--
Life is tough, but I'm tougher

[PhreeZone 20]

ISP= Intergrated Student Program, and yes after I think Jan 1 it took effect. It was either Jan 1 or Jan 31..... something like that.... I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[skybytch 273]

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Lisa, that means if you and your son (After his aff) do a 2 way and he does a diving exit, docks, and does vertical movements, they don;t count since you are not a rated coach.

I'm perfectly cool with that. I can even wait until he has that A license to be allowed to jump with him - and I'm a former instructor and S&TA. He'll likely be a better skydiver because of it, which will make our jumps together safer and more fun.

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Jumpers want the safest possible planes they can get, DZO's want what is going to let them have the highest profit margin. They will maintain it just to the FAA Airworthlyness directives. Sure jumpers can take thier business other places, but how about those jumpers that are hours from another DZ? What do they do?

What I did when I was in that situation and what jumpers who live hours from any dz's do. Spend the money to travel. If travel is too expensive don't jump. In the extreme, move closer to a dz that flies well maintained aircraft. If enough jumpers would "vote with their wallets" the piss poor operators would eventually either close their doors or improve their aircraft.

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How about a certian DZ that is a GM but unless you graduated from his student program, you are not allowed to jump there? I'd say thats a really clear case of jumpers vs DZO.

I agree with you 100% on this one. That dz should NOT be a group member, period, and not just for that reason. That particular DZO attempted to have extremely restrictive LAWS put into effect regulating skydiving in that state. That's just wrong.

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But make it a non pay to play branch?

Are you willing to pay higher dues every year to support this? I'm not. That $100-$500 per year a group member pays helps keep my dues from going sky high.
pull and flare,
lisa
--
Life is tough, but I'm tougher

[PhreeZone 20]

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What would the organization lobbying for jumpers and not DZOs do? Provide insurance? Anything else?

Provide Insurance, ratings, working with the FAA more on issues like the 120/180 repack, getting the riggers tests updated to focus on squares instead of rounds and more strigent, provide better communication with the jumpers, getting demo clearence fully restored, provide more bang for the members dollar. Pushing for better/upgraded TSO's for gear. Getting better cloud clearence would really help a lot of jumpers jump more but I have'nt heard anything on anyone working on those issues.Keeping the members fees low. Working with all jumpers to make sure their demands are being met, just not the Dzo's.....
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[scottbre 0]

So how about my second question. How is that going to affect my being in the middle of s/l training...?
"Let the rabbits wear glasses. . . "

[FallingILweenie 0]

i have not really gone into the politics too much myself, but i see it like this: i personally like someone that will fight for us (like what happened after sept. 11th). The only non-USPA dz i have jumped at was when i jumped in south america. I thought some of the things that went on were somewhat sketchy, stuff that probably wouldnt have flown here with USPA. However it was my choice to get on that plane and jump. My brother wanted to do a tandem down there and i told him to wait till he got back here in the states to a USPA dropzone...at least you know they have some basic rules they gotta follow...i didn't trust the system they had with first timers. Now, all things being equal i would jump at a uspa dropzone out of support but for myself if i saw it was as safe as possible it wouldnt matter to me. but that's me as someone with some (tho not a lot, only like 260 jumps) experience. if i was to go down with a friend to a dz i haven't jumped at before i think i would tell him or her to go to a USPA dz before a non-USPA dz. All in all i think that its never gonna be possible to please everyone, even though the skydiving community is relatively small, so while i think that some things should be changed i think the fact we have an organization with some semblance of credibility is good for the sport. Besides, if you dont want to be USPA, don't be. It's your choice. WIth that choice comes the task of looking for dropzones that will let you jump without being USPA or equivalent but that is part of the choice you make if you want to skydive. This is my own opinion here (as is everything i have written so far), but personally i do like the fact we have an organization that has been able to gain some standing before the government and i do think that skydiving would not be as accessible as it is now without it.
that is my .02
blue skies
Tomas

[Aviatrr 0]

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Would you rather Jump at a USPA Group Member Dropzone or a Non-Member DZ if all things were equal or close to equal(Planes, people, Landing area)

Well, if facilities, equipment, prices, and driving distance were all the same - the people would be the deciding factor.. I don't really care if a DZ is a USPA group member or not - I will jump anyplace I feel safe and comfortable.
Mike

[Jumperpaula 0]

Everyone keeping up? Take your brain to the next level.
Fly Your Slot !

[wingnut 0]

just piping in for a sec... i happen to have the the situation back in ohio of two great dz's both the same driving time. one being a non-member...they are both great.....people are the factor, and what planes are flying ect.... i feel equaly safe at both.....

"up my noooossseee"- wingnut, at first euro dz.com boogie

[markbaur 0]

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the biggest benefit of individual membership is the insurance coverage. I'd be pretty bummed if a non-member swooped into my car then couldn't or wouldn't pay for the repairs

I thought this was third-party insurance, so it won't pay a claim by one USPA member against another.
Even so, I think the insurance is a good deal in case I have an incident with a whuffo.
Mark

[wildblue 7]

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Besides, if you dont want to be USPA, don't be. It's your choice.

It's not really a choice. You *have* to pay your dues, or you don't get to jump anywhere. You don't *have* to be a member of the AOPA to fly a plane.
And being a USPA Group Member does not make a DZ more safe. I've seen some insanely stupid and dangerous things happen at member DZs. Regularly. And their group membership has never been revoked. You pay your money, you get to call yourself a group member, and the USPA gets to start a museum.
I ain't happy, I'm feeling glad
I got sunshine, in a bag

[freefallfreak 0]

Wildblue,

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You pay your money, you get to call yourself a group member, and the USPA gets to start a museum.

What a concept...hey, we should have had the idea first...we could have our own little club..lol.
FFF

[PhreeZone 20]

Alright, After being stuck in training classes all week and having to contact a few people for official details, here are some details and further points about the Group member program:
The program costs each member twice. The first time is through assessing the fee to the DZ (which gets passed back to the jumper) and the second time isusing some of the dues money to pay for the program.
The income from the Group members was about $65000, while the actual budget for the program was over $105000 last year. The $50000 difference was made up by the members membership dues money. So this program that only helps GM DZ's is paid for by all the members. Is that a good use of money and resources?
The USPA is currently evaluating the third party insurance option and may drop it if the cost raises too much because of recent events. The USPA can only pass so much of the cost off on the members and DZ's before the dues are too high to keep it. There are other options they are looking at too such as lower coverage and higher ductibles. If the coverage is gone, some DZ's probally will not allow skysurfing or any other activity that involves throwing anything out of a plane due to the fact that they are no longer covered if the object damages something on the ground.
The DZ does not have to be a USPA DZ to allow USPA members to file insurance claims. There was an incident of car damage due to a botched landing a few years ago at Quincy and the USPA's third party insurance covered the cost of the repairs. I was laed to believe your individual coverage is still good even if you are not at a Group Member DZ.
USPA cannot serve both the best interests of the Individual Members and the GMs as these to entities best interests are often diametrically opposed. The best illustration of this is the BODs vote to charge non GM DZs a fee to hold AFF/TM/Coach certification courses. The fee is equal to the cost of becoming a Group Member DZ for one year. This fee serves only to limit the number of certification courses available to Individual Members. So even if a DZ does'nt want to become a USPA member, they must either have their staff go else where to get certified or not have any of their graduates become USPA licence holders since you must have an AFF instructor or coach sign the A card. If the DZ was allowed to hold their own course, the instructors and anyone else could attend the course, but the way it stands now is that even with enough interest, a DZ must either pay the fees to become a member or not hold a class.
Recently I was told about a phone conversation with a regional director about a GM DZ who had it's membership revoked for having non-rated aff jumpmasters jumping with aff students. The Director said that this was proof the GM program worked. The person who told me the story pointed out that for over 18 months USPA supported,and endorsed
this dropzone . 18 months of students jumping with non-rated jumpmasters. No the program didn't *work* . The program and its' blind endorsement of the DZ by USPA may very well have put new jumpers into serious risk.
Is this really in the best interest of the members? Endorsing a DZ through one enrollment peroid a practice that could easly cause a lawsuit and kill our sport? I think this shows why the GM program fails, it protrays that the USPA has a "Saftey Blanket" over a DZ while the USPA really has no idea what is happening at a DZ.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[Jessica 0]

Eric, next election, I'm writing YOU in.
Pet me! I'm harmless and cute!