This will piss off the canopy nazi's

[PhreeZone 20]

Actually... the Spectre has rounded end cells on the leading edge. I only rack hung mine 10 times or so....
The Safire has constant aspect ratio cells that are tapered in the height as well as the back and front. The front taper is very slight on a Safire.
The major difference is the amount of taper added to the canopy. Below X its semi and the performance associated with such.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[grasshopper 0]

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certainly we will all agree that the stiletto, cobalt, crossfire, and vengeance are all fully elliptical canopies

actually, the 3 center cells of the stiletto are completely square (no taper). and to further complicate things, there are no truly elliptical canopies, just varying degrees of taper.

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Plus the stilletto has a straight trailing edge doesn't it?
Skydivers always go down

[Emma 0]

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I think it would be good to post the DZ so those who jump there have a fair warning to watch their asses. (And to those of us who are dying to know.)

No, I don't think that IS a good idea....slagging off DZs online because of what you've heard/ believe etc. is never a good idea, even if it's true....

[Geoff 0]

Come on guys! This is a silly argument.
It's all marketing speak. There's no scientific test for whether any canopy is 'fully elliptical', 'elliptical', 'semi-elliptical', 'mildly elliptical', or 'tapered'.
The manufacturers tend to say 'elliptical' or 'fully elliptical' if they want to convey the impression of high performance. They tend to say 'mildly elliptical', 'semi-elliptical', or 'tapered' if they want to imply that the canopy is suitable for less experienced jumpers. It has very little to do with the actual shape of the canopy, except that any of these terms means that the canopy does not have constant chord across all its cells.
Read Rob's excellent post on Gear and Rigging or Swooping (can't remember which) which explains all this.
And no, the stiletto does not have a straight strailing edge.
Geoff

[E150 0]

I jumped at the 'Fudge Packers Anon Skydive' club in Merthumpbridge, Yates. They gave me a hankerchief for a canopy (10" by 10")! Whats more, it was a used hanky...... gooey green stuff on the left hand side.
(God I'm bored)

[skreamer 1]

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Whats more, it was a used hanky......

Borrowed it off 3flier did you?

"Don't die until you're dead"

[E150 0]

10" by 10", I guess that's what the manufacturers would call a 'square'?

[PhreeZone 20]

The Stilettos leading edge is actually over tapered. Thats one of the factors that lets it spin up so fast on opening.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[landmissle 2]

Hi all,
Well I was there when the jumper in question was being counseled on wheher he/she should jump the Crossfire 169. As a matter-of-fact I was a party in the discussion.
I won't even attempt to pursuade you on the merits/consequences of using an semi-eliptical/elipitcal canopy early on in a students progression. I think this has been discussed ad-nausium and at this point the original poster obviously has his mind made up on this matter.
What I can state without any doubt, is that this decision was not made without deliberation and consultation. The senior AFF instructor is the one who made the suggestion and he in addition, sought the opinion of the Master Rigger.
I and three of my compadres (including my wife) were all taught by this instructor. I trusted his opinion and guidance with my life and I still do. This event in no way changes that. His decisions in the past have always been conservative with an eye towards safety first. So if he feels this individual could safetly fly the Crossfire 169, I have no reason to doubt it.
BTW, I know the jumper in question and questioned him/her on their skill set. I then spent a fair amount of time with this person discussing what to expect from this canopy, how it differed from the canopy he/she was used to flying, how to explore this one safely up high, and how to land it.
Bottom line: some assumptions were made here about carelessness or negligance. That is simpley incorrect and unfounded. You may not agree to the concept (ellipitical canopies for newbies...) and you're certainly entitled to that opinion, but to try to start a bad-mouthing crusade on 2nd hand or incomplet information is uncalled for. Had I done the same, this forum would have ripped me a new ass-hole.
Feet up, heads-down, blue skies,
Landmissle (*WWOD?)
*What Would Omar Do?

[freeflir29 0]

"to start a bad-mouthing crusade on 2nd hand or incomplet information"
Dammitt....I had my torch lit, an extra pitch fork, and was on my way to the castle!!!
"Houston? That place is full of Crack heads and debutantes."- Hank Hill
Clay

[SBS 0]

The term "eliptical" has drifted away from actual shape in our sport. I have found that it is a word that is used more to describe flight characteristics than design these days. That's confusing, in a way, but the flight characteristics are what we are concerned more about than what the canopy looks like when it is hung up.
Just because a few dropzones do something, doesn't mean that it's the best idea in the world. Regardless of training, there is an insane number of factors to take into consideration from the point of view of a beginner. My question is, even if they can land safely every time, which I think is debatable, why should someone who is already mentally overloaded have something else added to the mix? We never know what a student is going to do...if they freeze and land downwind, a larger canopy may save them from getting broken or worse. If they are faced with a quick decision and yank a toggle, a Stiletto or Crossfire will hurt them alot quicker and alot worse than a canopy that is lightly tapered, like a Spectre or a Sabre2. Although the flight characteristics are similar, they are not the same, and the tapered canopies, while still zippy, will generally be more forgiving. Regardless of how well someone is taught, a student is dealing with soooooo much, there is bound to be information that goes in one ear, not out the other, but somehow gets lost in between. It's only natural.
Even considering the idea that someone would be perfectly ok on a smaller/eliptical canopy, what is the benefit? I am all for people being trained and jumping something smaller than a Manta. At the same time, though, why do we have to put people on something that they can't fly to its potential? I say again, it's like memorizing the multiplication tables...if you want to make change for a dollar, you have to learn to add and subtract. What we are asking these people to do is memorize (not learn) the multiplication tables, completely unaware of how they work. Learning comes from experience, not just a laundry list of facts. I believe that through learning on canopies that are not as high performance, in the long run, these people will learn to be better canopy pilots. The decision is whether one wants to go fast now and learn slowly to get better, or if they want to give up a little bit of the speed, and really learn to fly these things. If the wing is so far beyond the capability of a person, that they don't have the ability to experiment and to learn, how are they going to progress?
I think that by putting people on these canopies it is a disservice for 3 major types of people, who are all over our sport. The people who want to look cool, who think that by going fast, they will look cool. Refer to what I said above...they can look half as cool now, or they can kick ass in a year or two. Secondly, you have the people that don't care about speed or looking cool...why do they need a high performance canopy, then, when the benifits of it's performance will not be realized, and thus not be worth the risks that come along with high performance canopy flight? Thirdly, you have the people who think they know everything, and they say, "oh, I would never do that". Right as they are hitting the ground, they are thinking, "what they hell did I just do?" They know what they are and are not supposed to do from the laundry list, but practically, have no idea what that means...I've done it myself...oh, I can take it a little lower, a little lower, well, this seems low, but I'm sure I'll be fine...etc.
Ever heard the saying, "tell me, I'll forget, show me, I'll remember, involve me, I'll understand"?
People don't need knowledge, they need understanding, they need experience!
Steve

[PhreeZone 20]

Actually.... All this does is tell us your opinion that you think Elliptical canopies are ok for use with newbies.Would have you gave the same person your Cobalt if they were a touch lighter?
The way I like to think of thing anymore is to use a car as an anagogy since even the lowest common denominator of us should be able to follow along.
Now, during your driving lessons you are trained in either a old station wagon (75% of DZ's) or a late model sedan (25% of DZ "Progressive"). Now you are able to drive the same when you get your licence, and the basic requirements are the same. The Driver of the station wagon was tought the same things as the other driver, but does'nt expriment with as high of speeds, not quite as fast of turns and all the other things the other student did. Granted, the difference is very small at thier experience level to relly know what they are feeling. Now both have thier licence and decide to buy thier first car. The Station wagon driver gets a late model saden since its a nice safe practial choice. The Late model student/driver gets a High Proformance Sports car since he is "better" then the other driver since his equipment was better to start on. Is their a difference in thier basic skill set? Nope, both have had basicly the same limited experiences so far to use to build knowledge with.The knowledge gained by driving the station wagon transfers fairly easly to the late model sedan after some experience. The Sports car driver is in over his head without even knowing it. One hard stormp on the brakes on ice and its totaled with major injury. One slip of consontration and the Paramedics will be scraping the driver up.
Is that really what we want to happen to students and to our friends?
Murphy's Laws of Love - If the person isn't taken, there's a reason for that...

[landmissle 2]

Hi Phreezone,
I'm replying to this because you've made a statement directed at me. You're right it's just my opinion. And it's just an informed opinion by someone who was there. And it's a just an opinion on someone elses opinion and knowledge that I happen to know quite well. I was there. You have your opinion, analogy and what "information" you've read here. Does that make my view better than yours? No. But, it does make my opinion informed in the sense that I was able to take in all kinds of subjectives that can not be gleaned unless one was there. My "trust" and "respect" for someone may not mean squat to you, but they sure as heck mean much more to me.
You'll note in my post that I cared not to address whether semi-ellipticals/elipticals are a good idea on this matter. My position is pretty obvious. What I cared to address was whether a certain dropzone was showing a disregard for safety based on the instruction model they chose to adhere to or blantent example of negligence. Nothing more, nothing less. Based on the above I'll not take on your anology. Basing arguements on analogies is risky buisiness, all analogies can be blasted apart by virtue of what they are, something that strives for simplification of something it's not.
Finally you would like to question my logic or sanity by positing an ad-homious attack wrapped up in a question as to whether I would let the jumper in question fly my "unsafe-at-any-speed" Cobalt. If the jumper weighed less and the same people who were there and discussed felt it was safe, than yes, I would have. I've flown both. I'm no expert. But I would say that the Cobalt is actually "safer" in the hands of a newbie. It's less twitchy, "flies big" (yes there's truth to that..), and is less ground hungry than the Crossfire. Again, my opinion. Your's is likely to vary.
Don't get me wrong. I don't mind that you disagree with me. What I have issue with is that, everyone on this thread, with the exception of myself wasn't there yet are very ready to make a snap judgement. I offer the fact that I was there and witnessed the event, and I'm relagated to "that's just your opinion.". Great, thanks, I appreciate that. You to, have a nice day!
Feet up, heads-down, blue skies,
Landmissle (*WWOD?)
* What Would Omar Do?

[freeflir29 0]

*keeping head down*
I did see a situation recently where an elyptical canopy would have been a definate plus. A newbie girl at the DZ was doing great with canopy flying including starting the flair at the perfect time. Trouble was, she isn't strong enough to flare that giant 260 or whatever it is. So, she ends up eating dirt every time. Elypticals have lighter toggle pressure right?
"Houston? That place is full of Crack heads and debutantes."- Hank Hill
Clay

[MarkM 0]

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So if he feels this individual could safetly fly the Crossfire 169, I have no reason to doubt it.

I do. This isn't a "new jumper" it's a 11 jump infant. I was hot to trot on Mantas by jump 6 at my first dropzone. I could hit the peas almost every time and the guy radioing in other students always commented how "perfect" my flares where.
Then I went to another DZ and got my ass handed to me on student Falcons, jump after jump. I don't understand how you can form an opinion on someone's canopy skills just off or 10 jumps or so.
From the manufacturer's site:

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The Icarus Crossfire is a High Performance Elliptical ZP 9-cell canopy designed specifically for experienced ram air pilots.

Note "high performance" and "experienced ram air pilots". I'm willing to bet if I emailed Icarus they would not recommend this canopy for novices and they'd know more about their canopies than anyone.

[SBS 0]

"My "trust" and "respect" for someone may not mean squat to you, but they sure as heck mean much more to me."
Trust and respect are very important, but do not determine whether someone's opinion is correct or not, only whether you will follow their advice.
"Based on the above I'll not take on your anology. Basing arguements on analogies is risky buisiness, all analogies can be blasted apart by virtue of what they are, something that strives for simplification of something it's not."
Analogies are not necessarily simplification, but putting something into terms that are understandable to others. The analogy may be more or less complex than the actual problem, just so long as the receptor is capable of understanding the terms. You can shoot holes in anything...analogies can be very useful, though.
"What I have issue with is that, everyone on this thread, with the exception of myself wasn't there yet are very ready to make a snap judgement."
Regarding the reference to "Everyone":
I, for one, do not think, and hope that I have not given the impression that I think that these people are evil, or deserve to be judged...I just don't agree with their decision. I think that my position is valid, and I want to communicate reasoning why. I'm not judging the people, I am judging their decision based upon the information, which has not changed: an inexperienced person is jumping a Crossfire that is loaded at .9. I think I made my reasoning pretty clear above as to why I don't think it's a good or necessary choice, but I am not questioning the morality of the instructors.
Steve

[PhreeZone 20]

Actually..... the Cobalt is the same canopy I fly so I'm very well verused in it. I have pushed the canopy really hard and I like some things about it, but hate others. I've loaded Cobalts on everything from 1.1 to 1.45 and there is no way I would trust anyone with low experience with it. Frankly, I'm not happy with Atair's marketing and thats one of the reasons I'm kinda looking at other canopies. The canopy is just not designed to handle misinput like dozens of other canopies are. A Crossfire is the same exact way. I'm still grounded due to injuries substained a month ago when I mislanded my 150 at a loading of 1.25:1. It was just a slight misflare that ended up costing me (my insurence) $350 for the ER visit and 2 weeks of crutch walking. My mistake was easly made by ever student I've ever seen fly a canopy. I reached durning the flair.... Plain and simple, a Crossfire and a Cobalt or any other HP canopy just doe'snt tolerate misinput down low where most students panic.
As for the analogy.... like I said, I'm trying to get a point across to the LCD (a whuffo) why they are not the best idea.
I've discussed this before with someone else from here and I've about reached my limit of trying to explain why Ellipticals are bad in the hands of students, how Crossbracing is'nt for everyone, why to get a larger reserve, etc.....
I'm just beating my head against a brick wall it seems. Well, this Canopy Nazi is about to step down since it seems like people just ask enough people to hear what they want to hear then ignore all the advice from everyone else. I've came to realize that my opinions must seem so old fashioned to everyone so I'm about done posting them.....
Safe Swoops.....
Phree
Murphy's Laws of Love - If the person isn't taken, there's a reason for that...

[MarkM 0]

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Well, this Canopy Nazi is about to step down since it seems like people just ask enough people to hear what they want to hear then ignore all the advice from everyone else.

Canopy nazi posts like yours are why I was asking yesterday if loading a Triathalon at 1.1 was to agressive for someone who'll be recently off student or why another person here asked if Hornets were appropriate for new jumpers.
We read, we listen, we think about our decisions and we ask questions. I'd hardly call that a failure.

[SBS 0]

" I did see a situation recently where an elyptical canopy would have been a definate plus. A newbie
girl at the DZ was doing great with canopy flying including starting the flair at the perfect time.
Trouble was, she isn't strong enough to flare that giant 260 or whatever it is. So, she ends up eating
dirt every time. Elypticals have lighter toggle pressure right? "
There are other canopies that are not as high performance that would offer lighter toggle pressure without the negative aspects that come along with a high performance canopy (i.e. - Spectres, Sabre 2's, Safires, Triathlons, etc.).
Steve

[freeflir29 0]

"Spectres, Sabre 2's, Safires, Triathlons, etc"
True...I certainly wouldn't have suggested a Crossfire...LOL
"Houston? That place is full of Crack heads and debutantes."- Hank Hill
Clay

[AndyMan 7]

Let's hold off on the tarring and feathering of this dropzone.

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do. This isn't a "new jumper" it's a 11 jump infant. I was hot to trot on Mantas by jump 6 at my first dropzone. I could hit the peas almost every time and the guy radioing in other students always commented how "perfect" my flares where.
Then I went to another DZ and got my ass handed to me on student Falcons, jump after jump. I don't understand how you can form an opinion on someone's canopy skills just off or 10 jumps or so.

The fact that you learned on ancient equipment does not mean the rest of the world needs to.
This is hardly the first dropzone to put young jumpers under "high performance" canopies.
People used to say Roger Nelson was nuts when he put first jump students under Squares. Then they said he was nuts when he put first jump students under Sabres. Then they said he was nuts when he put first jump students under Safires. Now they say he's nuts when he puts students under Sabre 2's.
Note Roger Nelson also puts recent grads under Stiletto's - AT A RESEAONABLE WING LOADING.
Being progresive in this sport is a good thing - if done properly. Whether or not this student was trained for this progressive canopy is an evaluation I'll leave up to people who know what they're talking about. I'm pretty sure that nobody here knows what they're talking about in this specific case.
What I will comment on is that the appropriateness of a canopy for students has much more to do with the wingloading then the planform. I know I'm not alone in thinking this, either. Go over to the Gear and Rigging Forum, and ask Bill Von. I'm pretty sure he jus answered this, actually.
What pisses me off about this debate is that it comes up so often, yet people never admit that it's a debate. You get postings like the one that I'm following up to, that DEMAND that technology never changes, that students today must use the outdated gear that students used 20 years ago. The fact that DZ's are still throwing out students with 20 year old gear is the problem, not DZ's who actually keep their gear current.

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Note "high performance" and "experienced ram air pilots". I'm willing to bet if I emailed Icarus they would not recommend this canopy for novices and they'd know more about their canopies than anyone.

US Canopy Manufacturers only make this worse, because of the threat of lawsuits. US Canopy manufacturers are paranoid of being sued. I'm surprised they'll recomend anything at all.
I think a much smarter question for Icarus would be to ask when was the last time they actually sold an "Icarus Student ZP" to a Dropzone.
_Am

[GrumpySmurf 0]

Define 'slight misflare'. Flare too soon, too late, tried to run off too much forward speed? Been eyeing one of these to try out later in the year, so if it has certain nuances/quirks, better know sooner than later, eh?
Mucho Thanx!

[PhreeZone 20]

Slight Misflare... hmmm... check out the video. It had enough flare I popped up about 8-10 feet and then the canopy just quit flying, it had basically stalled after I hit the toggles to dig me out of the ditch. If I had'nt went into the Ditch the speed would have carried out for a long swoop. Since I did I had to dig my self out and just did too much input (4-6 inches instead of the 1 or 2 it needed) and then at that point you become committed to your plan. I finished the flare while at about 8 feet up and the canopy turned left and buried me in. The thought I had broke a leg from a distance but I walked away with just a severely sprained ankle and a bit of nerve loss on the toes.
Murphy's Laws of Love - If the person isn't taken, there's a reason for that...

[MarkM 0]

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The fact that you learned on ancient equipment does not mean the rest of the world needs to.
This is hardly the first dropzone to put young jumpers under "high performance" canopies.

No one's saying to not use modern canopies, but you still need to keep it docile enough so unpredictable behavior is less likely to maim and kill.

Quote

What pisses me off about this debate is that it comes up so often, yet people never admit that it's a debate. You get postings like the one that I'm following up to, that DEMAND that technology never changes, that students today must use the outdated gear that students used 20 years ago.

This thread had nothing to do with outdated tech and everything to do with a crossfire not being docile enough for a 10 jump wonder. Are you saying Crossfires are a good canopy for students with only 10 jumps?
But don't think technology in this sport can't or won't progress past what new students can handle. The sportbike world in the US has this very problem today, you're hard pressed to find anything but a 600cc sportsbike at a dealership and those things can easily dump a new rider. And I've seen plenty of new riders buy R1's, although they usually don't last too long.