Future of our Sport... (My Rant)

[PhreeZone 20]

Today I was a little disappointed by what I saw both on here and on some personal web pages that I found on Google. I've always thought that hitting 100, 200, 500 jumps were special. I've always considered 1000 jumps to be the differenating point of done some jumps to done lots of jumps. I was surfing personal pages and ran arcorss some with people saying they have lots of jumps then later on the same page saying they have like 25-50. One page was offering advanced coaching but the person had less then 100 jumps... Or one that I died laughing over, the owner said he had TONS of skydives but later said that he never got passed his 5 second delays. Now is this the voice of experience talking or the voice of bragging (or trying to)? I'm thinking that there are way too many people who are in this for bragging rights only. I know that there will always be a faction that thats all they want out of an activity is bragging rights, but it seems like Skydiving attracts way more then its fair share of those people.
I also thought that people had enough sense not to sell their old gear to people that are not ready for it. I saw today multiple posts on here and on personal pages advetising the perfect starter gear. I looked for a second canopy for my self expecting to find things like Tri's, Spectre's Sabres, Mantas, F1-11 canopies, etc. What did I find instead? Batwing 150's, Stiletto 150's, a couple of Sabre 150's, a Jedei 136, and the kicker of them all... a Crossfire 139. All of this is prefaced with the words Great Starter Rig, or Great First Rig! What are people thinking now days? Rigs like these are not designed for people right off student status at 99.95% of DZ's. And the sizes they are saying are perfect for starters? Unless they are all being sold to supermodel thin girls, we are talking some good size wingloadings going on here...
Is it just me that asks the background and jumping history of anyone looking at my gear? Am I the only one to turn away a buyer because I thought it was to agressive for the person?
It seems like the sport is at a critical point, we can either take it Mainstream or leave it Extreme. Taking it mainstream has huge possibilities but it also increases the possibility of having a group like MADD form against us and ground us... for good. Leaving it Extreme means we will always be questioned by our friends and family that just haveing learned what we know about the sport.
How we go from here, I'll leave that to you to decide...
To anyone still reading... thanks, hopefully I made sense considering this was peiced together from snipits that I've wrote over the last month and had in text files. Political Correctness - At least one person at any one time will be offended by something

[Sebazz1 2]

Well said. I often just shut my mouth for fear of being called "Old fashioned". I don't blame experienced people though. I see a lot of students these days get off student status and decide they will disregard all the safe training they have recieved and want to be cool and do big ways and swoop fast. New people don't seem to have the patience and regard for safety that used to be around. I think that people just getting into the sport should know better than to go and buy a batwing for their first canopy. After all we tell the students in the FJC that they are ultimately responsible for themselves. What more can we do. But nice post and of course we all have to remember that there is two side to every story....Seb

[QuickDraw 0]

Sounds like something for H.H. to look into.
People like myself (i hope) have the sense to read all (or most) of this stuff to realise i won't be able to "cut the shit" with a high performance canopy.
I think a pm to the sellers is called for or just delete their Ad,s.
Maybe it's just an age thing too, when your young you think you can handle anything, but i'm sure most of the regulars on here would not like the blood of a student on their hand,s
If it's got tit's or wheel,s..it's trouble.

[lazerq3 0]

Well you can only help people that will listen......I feel it is the job of the experianced jumpers to help educated us newsbies...and if they dont want to listen then its there ass!!! and if there not listening is a threat or danger to other jumpers in the sky then I feel they should be pulled aside and told either they comply or find a new DZ., If I'm ever seen doing something stupid I would hope that someone would pull me aside and say look dumbass!!! keep this up and your going to get killed or kill someone else!!
jason

[Jimbo 0]

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Sounds like something for H.H. to look into.

No. It isn't.

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I think a pm to the sellers is called for or just delete their Ad,s.

Uh. This is just scary. To suggest that people should delete an ad? While I agree that to some degree it is the sellers responsibility to know who he is selling gear to (ie: don't sell your VX-74 to a recent AFF grad) some responsibility has to be put on the buyer. A scenario where regulation is introduced to protect us from ourselves is just Bad. There are people in our government (All governments) who think like that - they're the ones trying to outlaw skydiving.
No thanks. Sellers, please take some time to get to know your customer. New buyers, be sure to talk with your peers, instructors, coaches, and mentors about your first purchase, it's ultimately your decision, but don't discount the advice of those with experience.
-
Jim

[Jessica 0]

Anyhoo, most of the sellers probably aren't on the forums and don't know what the f*** a PM is.

[QuickDraw 0]

I realize it's a two way thing, the point is if you make this sport unsafe at the first hurdle you will have beurocracy (spl) all over your ass.
I just don't want some asshole carving me up because another asshole was stupid enough to sell him/her a hot rig.
If it can be discouraged i'm all for it and there,s no place better to start than in your own back yard.
If it's got tit's or wheel,s..it's trouble.

[Opie 0]

One of the drawbacks of the net is how easily someone can post advice to others when we really don't know their experience & knowledge level. In face to face situations you would be able to determine their personality and knowledge in a few minutes and take their advice with a grain of salt if neccesary. Those in the sport for bragging rights will fade away only to be replaced with new ones, don't let it get you down.
When it comes to selling and buying gear it can be difficult to tell if someone living 500 miles away from you is qualified for the canopy yet. Hopefully the seller will do his best to only deal with qualified people but I would also look for the buyers friends, S & TA, dropzone operater, etc. to keep lower time jumpers using the proper gear for his/her level. If you know a friend who has advanced to rapidly for his/her own good, wouldn't you try to caution them?
Mainstream or Extreme? This arguement has been going on for years. The advances in equipment and training have allowed the sport to grow nicely. Most of the time that I hear someone argueing than it will soon be mainstream it's comming from a lowtimer or an oldtimer that has just got back into the sport and is amazed by how nice the new equipment is. But as years of experience accumalate you are forced to remember the high price some pay losing a friend to the sport and seeing many others I know and do not know have their lives changed forever by serious injuries convince me we will never be mainstream. When most of the general public see these accidents happen they cannot understand why we still choose to continue, and with the lawsuit happy attitude we see in so many of them I am glad to see them go home from their one tandem uninjured and brag to their friends about being a skydiver only to never return.
Opie
If your not on the edge, you can't enjoy the view!

[freeflir29 0]

"One of the drawbacks of the net is how easily someone can post advice to others when we really don't know their experience & knowledge level"
My signature is the best words I think I have ever typed on this site....
"I only have 131 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[Opie 0]

Forgot to add.
ANYONE LOOKING FOR A VENGEANCE 107 ? its posted the classifieds. Please be qualified.
Opie
If your not on the edge, you can't enjoy the view!

[Sebazz1 2]

Clay I agree with youSomeone mentioned above that if you saw a low time jumper progressing too fast would you say something? It depends but I have seen some people I know doing some frankly really stupid shit. What do you tell someone who's not going to listen anyway? Save my concern and breath for someone that actually wants advice.......
Seb

[skybytch 273]

You probably already know this... but I agree with damn near everything you just said. Personally I'd hate to see skydiving become mainstream - even if it meant that I could sell lots more gear and earn bigger paychecks. imho skydiving is NOT a safe sport, period - even when you do everything right and have the most up to date equipment available you can still be injured or killed. Those people who can't accept that shouldn't be jumping.
I have a real problem with those who market skydiving as a safe sport because I feel that brings in the wrong kind of people - people who won't take responsibility for themselves and their actions and choices. I think back to the day my FJC instructor went in with a tandem student... and the student's friends were screaming at his newly widowed wife "you said this was safe!" (she never said that, btw...)... this after they all signed the waiver which stated the facts pretty plainly. Sorry, but I don't understand how anyone can think that throwing your body out of an airplane and falling toward the ground at over 100 mph could be anything BUT dangerous....
pull and flare,
lisa
--
What would Scooby Doo?

[MarkM 0]

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I've always thought that hitting 100, 200, 500 jumps were special. I've always considered 1000 jumps to be the differenating point of done some jumps to done lots of jumps.

My newest instructor has 1600 jumps, I have 17. She says to cutaway on a PC in tow. She also says to cutaway a side by side config if the canopy lines aren't entangled.
I disagree with both procedures.
So is it that I just don't know shit and ought to listen to my betters or what?

[skybytch 273]

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So is it that I just don't know shit and ought to listen to my betters or what?

Maybe. Have you asked her why she teaches what she teaches and discussed why you disagree? You might learn something from her explanation and the discussion. If she can't or won't explain it, then you also learned something.
pull and flare,
lisa
--
What would Scooby Doo?

[MarkM 0]

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Maybe. Have you asked her why she teaches what she teaches and discussed why you disagree? You might learn something from her explanation and the discussion. If she can't or won't explain it, then you also learned something.

No, because there were other students in the class and I don't think it would've been proper to discuss it then.

[PhreeZone 20]

Then discuss it on break or at the camp fire or sometime. Don't just blow her advice off because its different from what you think. She might have had a PC in tow and cutting away let her walk away while not might have killed her. Experience counts for more then most people give it credit for.
Political Correctness - At least one person at any one time will be offended by something

[skyhawk 2]

hey my first rig was a sabre 150 :)
um im not sure why you think it is going mainstream everyone i know still thinks im crazy
on the ad thing some ppl can use those rigs (well except mayby one or two of them) also very few dzso's will let them jump it anyway hell when i wanted to buy my rig i was sent over to the dzso to ask him lol
(o)(o) i got a iq of 189 so there

[skybytch 273]

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No, because there were other students in the class and I don't think it would've been proper to discuss it then.

Another thing to consider in your case is the experience level of the others in the class... was this an FJC? I'm a strong believer in teaching a student one emergency procedure regardless of the malfunction - "it's a p/c in tow so I'll just pull silver... no wait, that's not a p/c in tow, that's a bag lock so I'll cutaway and then pull silver... no wait, that's not a p/c in tow or a bag lock that's - splat" See the point?
pull and flare,
lisa
--
What would Scooby Doo?

[PhreeZone 20]

Dude... its called punctiation
Anything as a 150 or smaller for a first rig the jumper better be 120 pounds or so. Almost all those canopies are fully elliptical. The Stiletto is a fun canopy when in the hands of experienced pilots. The Jedei is a swoop machine that is faster then a Stiletto. The Crossfire is not cool for beginniers, and thats the word from Icarus.
As for DZO's filtering out gear purchases... I asked to talk to the DZO or S&TA the last time I sold my gear to make sure the new jumper could handle it and leave me in good consious. I've been to a DZ that never asked what my canopies were except to see my reserve card to make sure I was in date. They never asked my experience or questioned my canopies.
Things might be different in Oz....
Political Correctness - At least one person at any one time will be offended by something

[AggieDave 6]

Same here, usually they want to look over my gear to make sure that everything is there and not duct-taped together and look at my card. Beyond that, a lot could care less if I was jumping a drogue with break lines or a Laser9 266...I have been asked a couple times, though. Like when I went to Spaceland, the DZM wanted to know what my main was and how many jumps I had, had on it, etc.
Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.

[freeflir29 0]

I don't think I have ever been asked about my canopy size. Of course they ask how many jumps I have, am I current, and they always want to see a repack card. Hell....they even asked these questions when I went to ASC....
"I only have 131 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[MarkM 0]

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She might have had a PC in tow and cutting away let her walk away while not might have killed her.

She hasn't. Yes I know what mals she's had. Even if she had it really doesn't matter. If someone with 10k jumps doesn't believe in RSLs because he was almost killed by one once, that doesn't mean I shouldn't use a RSL.

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Another thing to consider in your case is the experience level of the others in the class... was this an FJC? I'm a strong believer in teaching a student one emergency procedure regardless of the malfunction - "it's a p/c in tow so I'll just pull silver... no wait, that's not a p/c in tow, that's a bag lock so I'll cutaway and then pull silver... no wait, that's not a p/c in tow or a bag lock that's - splat" See the point?

I think it was more of a matter of opinion on what was best for the situation. There's really no "right" answer for a PC in tow. Going straight for reserve or cutting and hitting reserve can both get you killed for diff reasons. If it was to simplify the FJC you wouldn't teach to cutaway a side by side sometimes.
If I have a side by side do I cut it away even if it's stable like recently taught or bring it in like I was taught twice 2 years ago?
Do I compare jump numbers on my instructors and go with whoever has the most jumps? Go with the instructor from the bigger dropzones? It's silly.
Yeah, if I have a PC in tow I'll go straight to reserve.
Yeah, if I have a stable side by side I'm keeping it.
The ground doesn't care how many jumps I have, I'm basing the above two personal choices off of the things I've studied.
When I take advice I don't look for jump numbers as a validation that it's worth a shit. I take it as just opinion, move on and form my own decisions.
This sport is weird. Everyone has very strong opinions on everything and a lot people are damn sure the other guy is doing things wrong. And of course since this is an extreme sport these little differences of opinion matter so damn much.
If you're a SL guy, AFF sucks. If you're AFF/AFP, SL is old and outdated.
At my very first FJC we never practiced reserve pulls in a harness, we just saw it demonstrated to us once. I'm sure my second DZ saw that first DZ as horribly unsafe.
At my second DZ I jumped worn out mantas with round reserves and old FXC AADs. I'm sure my first DZ would've though that DZ horribly unsafe.
At my new DZ we didn't cover PLFs on the FJC or learn never to land in the middle of a turn. I'm sure my first two DZs would've been horrified to know I didn't learn these basic canopy survival skills.
Freefly with a RSL and you will die.
No wait, you'll die without a RSL because you're too fucking stupid to pull silver or may need that half second it gives you.
I've been a student for 2 years running now, done the FJC 3 times and you want to know what I've learned? Study your ass off on your own time because nobody seems to know what the hell they're talking about. Everybody is giving you "crap" advice, and the DZ to the right is 100% sure the DZ to the left will kill you if you jump there as a student.
I watch students go through FJC and it scares the hell out of me that they're going to jump from a plane. Cut away a stable side by side? Damn I almost said outloud "Why the hell would you do that? Everything I've ever read/heard/watched/learned has told me to keep it and just watch for downplaning".
But do I say that? Hell no. I'm just a little 17 jump nothing that doesn't know jack about this sport, except for when to keep my mouth shut, nod in agreement and then do whatever the hell I want when the shit hits the fan because my instructor won't be there to wipe my ass.
She's a good instructor. I've learned a lot from her and will continue to. But her number of jumps or role at the DZ don't factor into my skydiving learning "this is bullshit/this is good info" filter any more than Clay's lack of jumps or local class clown act does on anything I hear from him.
Won't matter for long anyway, soon I'll have my little A's, B's, and C's that'll categorize me neatly into what I can and can't do(depending highly on the dropzone, mind you), or the issues I can voice an opinion on.

[skybytch 273]

Sorry if this sounds like I'm looking down my nose at your 17 jumps and all the studying you've done about the sport in two years, or like I think I know everything (I know I don't know everything btw... I learn something new nearly every day, usually from people with more years in the sport and more jumps than I have and occasionally from people with less)... This is "merely" my opinion and we all know that opinions are like assholes - and there's plenty of both in this sport.

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There's really no "right" answer for a PC in tow

That debate has been around longer than I've been jumping... the concept of teaching one set of emergency procedures to students has also been around for many years. There's a reason for that. What someone with 5, 10, 50, 500, 1000 jumps chooses to do when faced with a p/c in tow is up to them - I'm talking first jumpers here. I'm sure your FJC instructor assumed she was teaching first jumpers.

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If it was to simplify the FJC you wouldn't teach to cutaway a side by side sometimes

From the PIA Dual Square Report - "flaring with the outside toggle of each canopy will turn the dual square into a downplane. This also is not a desirable result. It must be stressed to only fly the front, or larger/dominant canopy in a dual square scenario."
Again, assuming a class of first jumpers - how many first jumpers are going to be clearheaded enough in a two canopy out situation to remember to only fly the front or larger/dominant canopy? It's much easier for them to remember the one emergency procedure - once the canopies are in a side by side configuration, cutaway, pull silver, land under one parachute (yes, I know the reserve is already out so there's no need to pull silver, but I'd still teach it One procedure regardless of the emergency) You cannot assume that the student will have operating radios so the instructor can tell them what to do, and you cannot assume that the student will remember not to flare in that situation.

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Study your ass off on your own time because nobody seems to know what the hell they're talking about. Everybody is giving you "crap" advice

What makes you think the people who said/wrote whatever you studied know what the hell they're talking about? Or does your 17 jumps in two years give you the experience to be able to tell who knows something and who doesn't?
pull and flare,
lisa
--
What would Scooby Doo?

[Sebazz1 2]

Just to retirate what Lisa said, in an FJC you need to keep things simple. I teach students that once the pull procedure has begun (main pilot chute deployed) that they shold then cutaway and go to reserve. The only time I say go straight to the reserve is when they have a hard pull or can't locate the pilot chute handle. That is the proper sequence of events is it not? I don't want to clog thier brains with a different scenario for each individual mal. They have enough to process as it is. As for the dual canopy out situation it is the same thing. Front to front situatuions I say steer with the front canopy but in side by side I say cutaway. Keep it simple. If you had more experience you would understand this better and be more respectful to people who teach the sport. Regardless if you know what your instructors mals where or not she is most likely trying to keep things simple. You are one of those students who thinks they know everything and have everything figured out. Shit since you know it all why don't you go out and buy yourself a 90' crossfire and start swoopin. With all the studying you've done you probably know all there is to know. After all experience means nothing right?!?
Be humble be respectful................do what ya gotta do.....
Seb

[lazerq3 0]

I myself (69 jump wonder) prefer the FX 88. Those 2 extra feet on the crossfire just slow me down way tooo much. I mean what kinda swoop ya going to get outa of a 90!!!!
KIDDING ....JUST KIDDING jason
(just trying to keep things light )