What Will It Take......

[PhreeZone 20]

Mark... Ask around the next time you are at a DZ, how many people over 1000, 2000, hell there are lots of 10000 jump jumpers the number of times they have broke a leg, a wrist or even a few down there have broken ribs and necks. It might not be a bad enough injury to put you on life support for moths, but eventually 99.999999999999% of all jumpers will hurt themselfs. Tandem master are getting beat up on every dive and I've seen more then one walk away from a jump with black eyes and a broken nose. Is that enough of an injury for you?
Not all skydivers will burn in, only about 30-50 do a year..... I want to do everything I can to not be in that number... But if my time is up, so be it I'm ok with the thought that the element of risk will have caught up to me. I've seen one fatility so far and don't want anyone to see another.....
Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush

[MarkM 0]

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I've seen more then one walk away from a jump with black eyes and a broken nose. Is that enough of an injury for you?

My legs got tangled up in my main lines on opening during my 4th jump, the opening shock turned my lower leg black for a month and left a scar that lasted a year. I put my arms out on a PLF on my 7th or 8th jump, the sprained wrists kept me down for a month. My instructor got a bruised eye from pulling the SL in from a jumper, the end whipped up and caught her in the face. The next week a student didn't flair and kept his legs locked when landed, dislocated his right leg.
I don't personally consider minor injuries something that makes a sport safe or unsafe. Never broke a bone in my life, don't plan to, but if I do life will go on.

[Sebazz1 2]

Muenkel,
That AFF pre course is for becoming and AFF jumpmaster/Instructor.......
Seb

[Muenkel 0]

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That AFF pre course is for becoming and AFF jumpmaster/Instructor.......

Now I feel retarded. Well it's not the first and it won't be the last!Thanks
"I am a victim of my environment."
Chris

[skybytch 273]

Yeah you're all right. We really should tell people that it's totally safe to jump out of
airplanes as long as you don't fuck up. Then we can bring more and more people who
won't take responsibility for their own actions into the sport and have lots of mad
mothers and lawyers get involved to try to limit or stop skydiving completely when those
who won't take responsibility for thier own actions and choices get hurt or die because
a) they fucked up or b) they did everything right and they still died or got hurt.
I give up. You're all right, I'm wrong.
pull and flare,
lisa
--
What would Scooby Doo?

[scottbre 0]

Lisa,
I noticed you posted the same the exact post in two different threads. Both of which don't really apply to what you are saying in your overly sarcastic tone.
What I said in this thread is that yea skydiving is dangerous, but as far as skydiving goes it can be done safely. As safe as skydiving can be anyway. That's the way every other activity in life is. People wear pads when they play football to make football as safe as possible. They could be unsafe and not wear the pads as well. Just like a skydiver can be unsafe (within skydiving) and overload a canopy before they can handle it.
Your comment is simply pandering for everyone to tell you how right you are, in a very "I'm the victim here" sort of way. In a conversation such as these ones that are discussing safety, that brutal kind of sarcasm serves no purpose for either side of the argument but to get everyone riled up and emotional. Pretty much up til your sarcasm, everyone had been having a good humored discussion/debate.
I am not personally attacking you, just pointing out that your last comment served no purpose but to upset people, and I believe the posting world's terminology for that is trolling.
Just my opinion. "Let the rabbits wear glasses. . . "

[rhino 0]

I'm with Derek on this one..
Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!

[Hooknswoop 19]

Lisa, slow down. Everybody here respects your opionon. Not everyone will agree with you, even when you are without a doubt, 100% right. Very frustrating, i know.
It is difficult to believe that I have to get hurt or killed skydiving. I was much more likely to get injured when I was a full time instructor because i couldn't pick my days and had to do Tandems to pay the bills. Now, if I am tired, recovering from a cold, the weather isn't good, I can sit on the ground. I can call the shots. I know skydiving is a risk, and that knowledge helps keep me safe. I don't let my guard down. I maintain my gear w/ a vengance. I conciencesly and continually observe conditions and risk factors and make good judgement calls based on experience and common sense. I beleive that as long as I continue this vigilance I have a very small chance of being injured or killed skydiving. Flying in airplanes is not considered dangerous, but take a look at the NTSB's web site. There are 3-10 incidents/crashes everyday, mostly due to pilot error ( this catagory encompasses a lot of things like flying into weather they shouldn't have= bad decisions)or mistakes in maintenance. rarely does big airliner crash, because the pilots and crew are very well trained, fly well maintained aircraft, excersice good judgement (helped in part by company policy, and hindered by company policy in some cases, i'm sure) and plan their flight in detail, taking into account contigencies. is flying dangerous? It can be, if you do not do the things necessary to keep it safe. I believe it is the same thing in skydiving. Most of the little accidents I've seen, the jumper did not do at leat one of the 4 things that can make skydiving safe: pre-planning, good judgement, proper equipment, and special training.
There isn't a right or wrong answer to this one, just peoples perceptions and opinions.
Take care,
Derek

[PhreeZone 20]

Lisa... I can't speak for you, but everything I've said on here in the last 3 weeks has been laughed at, critized (some of which was needed, DBTech) and in other posts I've been told I'm flat out distorting the facts by people that hav'nt been around long enough to know their canopy wingloading. I totally agree with everything you say and I'm going to have to lose my conservitive attitude if I want to post here anymore it seems.... actually you know what.... screw that.... I'm outta here for a while cause... I give up. You're all right, I'm wrong.
Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush

[rhino 0]

Damn.. I can't wait to get a fraction of what is in your head...
Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!

[MarkM 0]

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Yeah you're all right. We really should tell people that it's totally safe to jump out of airplanes as long as you don't fuck up.

I don't see anyone saying that.

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have lots of mad mothers and lawyers get involved to try to limit or stop skydiving completely when those who won't take responsibility for thier own actions and choices get hurt or die because a) they fucked up or b) they did everything right and they still died or got hurt.

And they can go after rock climbing, street ludging, cave diving, snow boarding, skiiing, canyon hiking, spelunking, hang gliding, motorcycle/car racing, ocean sailing, and about a thousand other high risk sports or activities a lot of which are more dangerous than skydiving.

[hisgoofyness 0]

come on guys... this is pointless
exactly what are you trying to accomplish
no offense, but it sounds like ego trips to me
i happen to agree with just about everything lisa says
i am a newbie in the sport and don't claim to know anything about anything, except for my life long desire to fly without being in a plane
give the girl a break she is truly only looking after all of our, and the sport's best intrests, believe it or not
lisa and phree, you have at least helped me
keep up the good advice
hisgoofyness
it ain't easy being goofy, but i do what the little voices in my head tell me to do

[scottbre 0]

I can only speak for myself and my comments, but I don't see how I have said anything that goes against what either you or Lisa have to say on topics. However, sarcasm serves no purpose in a conversation where people are already having a civil discussion.
Both of you have a lot of experience and advice to add to conversation, and a person would be plain stupid not to think about what the two of you have to say. But at the same time, you aren't going to get the whole world to see things your way. So try to be less thin-skinned and keep up the good advice. "Let the rabbits wear glasses. . . "

[hooked 0]

I read and take notice of all the advice given here. Us Newbies need good advice, thank you. Keep voicing your opinions as we need all the good opinions, advice, and recommendations you will give us!
J

[Sebazz1 2]

I think this thread has been twisted and turned all outta shape. Lisa and Phree....just FYI...you will get very little respect from anyone these days. People with 17 jumps know just as much as someone with 1,000 jumps. One thing i learned over the years is to be blissfully ignorant of all the crap around and take care of yourself first then those who respect you. F*** the rest of em.
Back to the point......As long as people make radical manuevers with thier canopies to reach high speeds on landing there will be injury. Serious Injury. The only way to stop it to stop skydiving. People need to respect thier limitations. I heard a guy on another post say that he hooked and swooped the shit outta his big canopy before he downsized but folks these days just down size right away without the proper steps.
I learned on big canopies then progressed to smaller F-111 canopies slowly and finally got a ZP canopy at 450 jumps. Didn't even attempt a high speed till 800 and I'm still learning this day. I watched a kid with 200 jumps swoopin couple months ago and I told him to take it easy and he just sneered and said "I know what I'm doing". Later that day he biffed it hard and barely walked away. So you see no respect! F***'em............Save your breath.
Check your attitude, be humble, be respectful, trust experience..........
Phree & Lisa you two prob should bolt for a while.....
Seb

[Zennie 0]

Whoa! Back the truck up!
I honestly think people aren't as far apart as it may seem. I think the problem here, which isn't unusual, is a matter of semantics. Specifically, the word "safe" is a very, very subjective term.
I think Lisa is viewing the word "safe" in terms of non-risk. And of course, skydiving isn't safe when viewed that way. You can have lots of experience and do everything "right", as she points out, and still die. Lisa Gallagher is a good example of that.
I think Derek is viewing the word "safe" in terms of acceptable risk. If I perform a thoughtful, informed, risk calculus and the odds are stacked largely in my favor, then that activity would be considered "safe". And I believe his assesment that skydiving is "safe" is similarly correct... if one trains, is patient, studies, is disciplined and uses good common sense then the odds of a severe injury are dramaticaly reduced.
Look at any military/paramilitary (i.e. SWAT, DEA) group. They are trained extensively to go into what we would consider high-risk... even unsafe... conditions and get out relatively unscathed. Do injuries/fatailities happen? Sure. Are they as high as the would be if even the average solidier/cop went into the situation? Absolutely not.
So I think what Lisa is trying to say is that this sport has a significant amount of inherent risk, and we'd be deluding ourselves to say that it doesn't. I think Derek's trying to say that that risk can be substantially reduced through training and common sense.
At least that's my take, and I would agree with both of them.
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[scottbre 0]

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So I think what Lisa is trying to say is that this sport has a significant amount of inherent risk, and we'd be deluding ourselves to say that it doesn't. I think Derek's trying to say that that risk can be substantially reduced through training and common sense.
At least that's my take, and I would agree with both of them.

Well put Zennie. "Let the rabbits wear glasses. . . "

[Jessica 0]

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F***'em............Save your breath.

The problem I see here is that there is a big majority of readers who are appreciative of the comments about safety and wing loading etc., but don't respond in the forums.
I think the positive effect of posts like Lisa's and Eric's gets swallowed up sometimes by the vocal posters. Who can be argumentative. Which is fine, but gosh, it's gotten kind of vicious in the last few days.
Anyhoo, I understand if the safety Nazis take time off or disappear, but please don't lose sight of the fact that the silent masses learn from your input.

[Slowfaller 0]

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Anyhoo, I understand if the safety Nazis take time off or disappear, but please don't lose sight of the fact that the silent masses learn from your input.

Listen to what she is saying skybytch and phree, she is right. Both of you have taught me a lot and I guess it's the fact that I don't reply makes it seem that I'm (or anyone) not learning anything. I'm still a newbie w/ only 44 jumps, so that means Clay knows more than me, and he don't know shit. Thank god he's not a CN#
I'll go to college; learn some big words; I'll talk real loud god damn right I'll be heard.

[MarkM 0]

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People with 17 jumps know just as much as someone with 1,000 jumps. One thing i learned over the years is to be blissfully ignorant of all the crap around and take care of yourself first then those who respect you. F*** the rest of em.

I'm guessing that's directed at me since I'm the one with the whole 17 jumps.
I'm sorry if you think my lack of jumping means that my opinion that if you respect the dangers in the sport, don't get complacent, advance slowly, and follow the examples and advice of those who have been in the sport for a long time without serious injury you can skydive safely is flawed.
But it's just that. An opinion. It doesn't mean I wasn't listening when Billvon wrote why he doesn't jump a sub 100 main or don't respect Lisa's opinions and advice.

[Sebazz1 2]

To me it just appears that you're trying to stir it up, or contradict some more experienced people just for the sake of doing so. Skydiving is second nature to some of these people while for you it is not yet. So just chill a little.
I appologize................no more serious stuff...
Seb

[rhino 0]

I don't know Lisa that well but I do know Derek. I would listen and learn from EVERYTHING that he puts on here. He is the best damned pilot and probably the most talented skydiver I have ever seen.
Derek said something a few days ago to me that I posted on here that could prove to be invaluable.
I asked Derek what his thought process was like when he was at my level "300 jumps" And starting to Carve much less hook.
"I had more jumps (600ish) and had spent a lot of time
observing canopies, understanding how they work and
fly. I studied aerodynamics so I could understand
what I was doing and why the canopy did what it did.
Lots of visualation, I probably have 2 mental hooks
for every actual hook. You start w/ an empty bag of
experience and a full bag of luck, the trick is to
fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of
luck. Of course I also believe you make your own
luck. Like Arnold Palmer said "the more I practice,
the luckier I get"
Derek"
This is SUCH an important thing.. I have been a professional golfer for 3 years now and I do the same thing.. For every shot I hit, I visualized the ball flight at least twice. What makes Tiger Woods so good is his Mental Focus and planning. He doesn't hit the course without a plan of action. He knows what to do when things are going good and what to do to get himself out of a disaster. If you fail to plan you are planning to fail..
Rhino
I had "ONE" jump that I planned to fail.. I went two chins and two knees too low" I slept with a pillow between my legs for 2 months. That was my fault and mine alone.. I was doing something that I had not prepared myself for and HAD NOT planned properly for. Not to mention I was trying to do something that the canopy was not made to do. I screwed up. Luckily I walked away without a real scratch on me. People like Derek were the ones harping on what an idiot I was for not planning and being "safe" or smart. Bottom line it was my mistake. I will NEVER make that mistake again. It made me take a step back and slow down. I got a chance to realize that the real pilots didn't get where they were by taking constructive criticism personally but by learning and seeking knowledge. Then applying what they have learned systematically and with a grain of salt. Learn from my mistakes and from the LACK of mistakes made by people like Derek. I know I am learning. Like a sponge. Right now I am nothing but an EMBRYO in this sport. I am just starting to learn at 300 jumps.
Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!!

[MarkM 0]

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To me it just appears that you're trying to stir it up, or contradict some more experienced people just for the sake of doing so.

I don't mean to come across as trying to stir things up. But I don't think experienced jumpers are immune from being contradicted.
Out of the 2001 low turn fatalities, 4 had 200 or less jumps 5 were very experienced skydivers. I'm sure they knew what they were doing, had the experience to back it up, but made an error and died anyway.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Lisa and Eric,
I for one hope that the two fo you will not stop posting, since I have learned soo much from both your opinions.
I think I will stay out of the rest of the discussion, other then to say that I agree with zennie.
Blue skies to all
SkyDekker
"We cannot do great things, only small things with great love" Mother Theresa

[AggieDave 6]

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Out of the 2001 low turn fatalities, 4 had 200 or less jumps 5 were very experienced skydivers.

A different take on this, you know Dale Ernhart was a hell of a driver. He pushed the limits and he walked away many many times, however, one time he didn't. Even though he'd wrecked his car quite a few times from pushing the limits. No, the wreck wasn't his fault, but he still died. Inharently, NASCAR is fairly "safe," there are a lot of precautions taken, etc. but people still die.
Same with skydiving. It is an unnatural act, humans weren't build to fly, no wings, nothing in place for natural flight, but through our innovations we have been able to fly. We take numerous safety precautions to try to make skydiving as safe as possible, but there will be a level of danger, no matter what. Even for those jumpers around who have thousands of jumps and still jump a lightly loaded square canopy. (My JMs were like that, they had tonz of jumps but still jumped canopies loaded at around 1.1 and were perfectly happy). People will always push the limits, that is how progress is made, but there is inharent danger there. Some time look up the estimated numbers of pilots who died during the "earlier years" of flight, but they were pushing the limits and we are where we are today because of these innovators.
The bottom line is, be as safe as you can be, know your limits and treat them with respect. You do, however, have to push you limits if you want to continue with your progression as a skydiver. You've been doing that all along, otherwise you would still be doing PRCPs with 2 JMs with you.
"Alright, at 4500 lets break it, turn 360 and track away..."