What Will It Take......

[billvon 3,090]

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People wouldn't downsize to a canopy they couldn't handle if they didn't think they could handle it. The guy that femured under his VX-74 after a dozen or so jumps on it didn't think he could never possibly get hurt, but he did think he could handle the canopy.

I don't think anyone makes such a black and white decision. I can handle an Extreme 99; I've put a few jumps on one. I know it will kill me if I have a lapse of attention, if conditions are bad, or if I have a string of bad luck. My normal canopy is a Saphire 129 loaded about 1.6 to 1. It's somewhat more forgiving, but I know it demands a lot of attention as well. I know I can get hurt - an accident under a PD190 put me in a wheelchair for a month. The 129 is, for me, an acceptable tradeoff between safety and fun.
Skydivers make decisions based on a lot of variables. I think most understand that any canopy is a tradeoff between speed, turn speed, front riser pressure, stability, opening etc and they try to choose one that's a good tradeoff. I think that many people make that decision with too much priority on some things (speed) and not enough on others (safety) but someone who jumps a Triathalon 160 could say the same of me. Even so, there may come a day when the Tri-160 jumper gets killed by a bad rotor coming off a building, while I land safely across the field. That doesn't mean he couldn't handle his 160, or that I am better at handling my 129. Shit happens.
I do agree that many people downsize too fast, before they have what I consider to be the minimum skill set needed to fly their previous canopy. Choosing a canopy that you _can_ fly well with your current skill set stacks the deck in your favor, and there's a lot to be said for that.
-bill von

[skybytch 273]

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I think skydiving is safe for that same reason.

Skydiving is not safe. You can make it safer for yourself but you can still die even if you do everything right and have every possible piece of safety equipment and jump a huge canopy and never do hook turns and....

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So I don't think hook turns are generally a safe thing to do, no matter what the experience level, because if you get hit by one of those unknowables I don't see where your out is.

Generally those who do hook turns have accepted the fact that eventually they are going to get hurt; if they haven't they are kidding themselves. The smart ones learn from people who've learned the hard way and learn to do them as safely as possible. Just like whuffos can't understand why we jump out of planes, those who don't do very high performance landing approaches often don't understand why those who do keep doing it even though they know they can get hurt or even die - they do it because it's fun, exhilarating, fast, etc... and they've accepted responsibility for their own mistakes.
I don't do hook turns btw, but I understand why people like doing them. I certainly don't encourage people to do them, but those who are interested in learning I encourage to get training from someone who is good at them. Training is the key to making very high performance landing approaches survivable over the long run.
pull and flare,
lisa
--
What would Scooby Doo?

[rgoper 0]

well said lisa, ready to assume the position of canopy nazi # 1 again? somebody needs to! this is a wake up call for all of us. is sky diving dangerous, hell yes, can it be done safely, oh yeah, do we all know our limitations, i don't think so. for some it's a bout "pushing the envelope" were already doing that just by exiting the aircraft, and i'm not saying i don't approve of hook turns, blade running/swooping it can be done safely, the only observation i've made is people downsize too quickly just to keep up with the joneses, and they don't make the proper consultations. why is it before sky sufring there are different levels, lengths, and tapes, and/or coaches, but none for swooping? just a thought. personally, i wouldn't even let the idea cross my mind unless i had coaching from two individuals that i know have been doing it for years.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[MarkM 0]

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Skydiving is not safe. You can make it safer for yourself but you can still die even if you do everything right and have every possible piece of safety equipment and jump a huge canopy and never do hook turns and....

I can die taking a shower tomorrow so bathrooms really aren't safe. There were probably more bathroom related fatalities and injuries last year in the US than skydiving. But it's a matter of the degree of safety.
If you truly felt skydiving wasn't safe, you'd be a fool to stay in the sport. Yes it's dangerous. Yes it's high risk. But those don't translate into unsafe.
An aircraft carrier deck is the most dangerous place in the world. It would be unsafe for me to be on one, but is it still unsafe for a crewman trained to be there?
Training can make high risk scenarios "acceptably" safe. I think everyone here believes that skydiving can be "acceptably" safe, if you're properly trained for it.
So then why wouldn't I think swooping to be safable? Can't we train for that? To a point, sure. But how far can you train base jumping to be safe? How many base jumpers are walking around with 3000 bases under their belt? Why wouldn't you see a base jumper with 10k jumps, if he was really really skilled and good at what he did?

[freeflir29 0]

"an accident under a PD190 put me in a wheelchair for a month."
Whoa.......Like I always say...I'm pretty sure it'll go fast enough to kill me
"I only have 131 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[MarkM 0]

Before this blows out into a "what's safe" "what isn't" thing.
For me, unsafe is a situation where there's an eventual outcome that's bound to happen you can't escape from. Driving a car down a busy street at 100 mph is unsafe, you can't avoid that eventual moron that pulls out in front of you.
Safe is that while there's still a potential for something lethal to happen(we can all die in a car accident) it isn't an eventual situation you can't avoid.
We all know we will have a mal in skydiving, but we can escape from them. It's not a sport were eventually we will all encounter a situation we can't escape from. That sadly does happen, but hopefully we'll keep nagging each other enough about safety to keep it rare.
Peace people. Feeling a little under the weather so I'm going to bed. Promise I'll play nice tomorrow

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[AndyMan 7]

Mark:
Skydiving is not safe. I don't imagine it will ever be safe. You can not be trained so that it is safe. Skydiving is one of the very few sports where you can do everything right, and still die. This should've been made perfectly clear to you in the waivers you sign every year.
It is a significant risk, Skydivers accept this.

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I can die taking a shower tomorrow so bathrooms really aren't safe. There were probably more bathroom related fatalities and injuries last year in the US than skydiving. But it's a matter of the degree of safety.

I don't get your point. Either you accept the risk, or you don't. Skydiving is one thing that you can easily give up if you can't handle the risk. Likewise, if you don't think you can handle the risk of bathrooms, don't shower.

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An aircraft carrier deck is the most dangerous place in the world. It would be unsafe for me to be on one, but is it still unsafe for a crewman trained to be there?

You might ask this of John McCain. I would think that the deck of a carrier is one of the most dangerous places in the world. I don't think any kind of training would've saved you if you found yourself in a certain part of the USS Cole.

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Training can make high risk scenarios "acceptably" safe. I think everyone here believes that skydiving can be "acceptably" safe, if you're properly trained for it.

Acceptable Risk is two components. The amount of risk, and the extent to which the participant accepts risk. Obviously skydiver accept greater risk then the general population. Those who hook accept more risk then those who don't

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So then why wouldn't I think swooping to be safable? Can't we train for that? To a point, sure. But how far can you train base jumping to be safe? How many base jumpers are walking around with 3000 bases under their belt? Why wouldn't you see a base jumper with 10k jumps, if he was really really skilled and good at what he did?

The question of weather swooping or base jumping will ever be safe is moot, because skydiving will never be safe. If you can't handle this, I have some golf clubs to sell you.
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[skybytch 273]

Why do you feel the need to argue my every statement Mark?
Skydiving is not safe. If you jump out of airplanes you're bound to get hurt eventually; it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when and how bad. If you jump out of airplanes, you can die or be injured even if you do everything right. Why do I say that? Because I've seen it.
I've lost friends and been to funerals. I've sent get well cards. I've visited broken friends in the hospital. I've received get well cards. I have a 6 inch scar and two pieces of donor bone in my back from back surgery that was needed because I landed on my tailbone one day. I've been told I'm nuts for getting back in the air with a fused spine.
I've accepted the fact that even though I do everything I can to reduce the risk factors someday I might die doing this.
Does that make me a fool? In your opinion maybe it does. In my opinion it makes me a realist and means that I take responsibility for my own actions. I skydive because I love to fly my body. I love it so much that I'm willing to risk dying for it. I don't fool myself into thinking that what I love to do is safe. It's not and it never will be.
pull and flare,
lisa
--
What would Scooby Doo?

[freeflir29 0]

"if you don't think you can handle the risk of bathrooms, don't shower."
That's what I do.....
"I only have 131 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[PhreeZone 20]

Thank you Lisa!
Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush

[Hooknswoop 19]

"If you jump out of airplanes you're bound to get hurt eventually; it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when and how bad."
I'm sorry, I have to disagree w/ this one. Why do i have to eventually get hurt? I accept that yes it is possible, but not inevitable. If the odds were that high, I would have been injured a long time ago. It is likely that someone that drives for a number of years will be involved in an accident. It is possible, not inevitable.
Derek

[base698 20]

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To a point, sure. But how far can you train base jumping to be safe? How many base jumpers are walking around with 3000 bases under their belt? Why wouldn't you see a base jumper with 10k jumps, if he was really really skilled and good at what he did?

Maybe because its much harder to get access where you can jump like skydiving? I did 100 base jumps last year and that was solely because i took frequent trips where I didn't have to run after I landed and could crank out more than 4 a day (and if at a certain S in idaho) 8 a day. If there were BASE dzs around you'd likely see people with that many. We push our limits just like skydivers do. When comfortable with something we move on, but not everyone does. Add gainers, go lower, jump tighter landing areas. You can make it as safe as you want. Yes there is always a risk but its up to you how big that risk is.

[mountainman 0]

Hey Base698....you been to Mexico to jump the cave? Just wondering. That looks like a helluva time.
JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook.

[lazerq3 0]

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for some it's a bout "pushing the envelope" were already doing that just by exiting the aircraft

I know I'm going to get flamed for this , but I want to push the envelope!!!!! I mean thats why I took up this sport. I want to keep getting better and better at this sport which means in some cases you have to push the envelope. I want to learn to swoop!!! Am I ready now HELL NO!!!! but eventually I will be and I'll have to uup the stakes to learn. But this is me and what I choose. Nobody gets any good at anything by NOT pushing the envelope. Look at Freeflying. If someone didnt take the chace of learning a new technique of flying it wouldnt be here today. Crew, sky surfing, blade running , Ect it was all started by someone pushing the envelope. Going from a 200sq/ft canopies to 46sqft!!! I'm sorry but if I'm not pushing myself IN A SAFE MANNER THAT IS, then TO ME I'm not learning !!!
jason

[PhreeZone 20]

Lisa... here is something that I pondered the other day...
What the hell about this sport is safe? Lets see, we get on planes that are striped to the bare min to save weight, use pilots that are motivated by being flashed, jump out of said plane, reach speeds of greater then 200 mph all while moving at an object that is'nt going to move out of the way, trust opening our canopies to some fabric and ropes, fly wings that fold up at and can be packed away, land said canopies, sometimes at high speeds. None of that seems safe to me...
Cause I don't wanna come back down from this cloud... ~ Bush

[lazerq3 0]

Its all pretty amazing.....what we do up there!!
jason

[Sebazz1 2]

It's a dangerous sport plain and simple.........And you can get hurt even with a big huge canopy and two AAD's and four ditters......
People of all experiences get hurt doing stupid shit. But some people (the best) have few injuries becase they progressed evenly and through experience and have earned their skills through patience and hard work. Oh and being humble. Trust the people with experience they really do know better. Why? Cause they've seen bad things happen and learned from it. When they tell you to take it easy..go ahead and take it easy.....try to stay around for a long time......"Why did I land downwind?"...."The winds were blowing the wrong way..."
Seb

[skymedic 0]

Andy, the USS Cole was a destroyer.....
marc
"...a mind stretched with new idea's will never regain its shape"

[Remster 30]

Boy.... you boys and girls had a busy night! lol
People die in this sport. Before reliable AADs, it was no pulls. Now, its deaths from perfectly good canopies. There will always be death and injurie in our sport. If you (generic you) cant cope with that, as someone else said above, pick up some golf clubs.
It is not a safe sport, and thats part of the appeal. You can manage the risk, bust just as damms and reservoirs are designed to cope with 100 year floods, if you jump often enough, it will bite.
Remster
Muff 914

[JDBoston 0]

To me, it boils down to this: skydiving is unsafe because of the SPEED at which things happen.
If you have even a momentary lapse in awareness under canopy or in freefall, no matter what your experience level, it's relatively easy to go past that point where no amount of skill or quick last-second reactions will be able to save you. In activities that move slower, like driving, you have more of an opportunity to see danger coming and avoid it.
Plus the occasional act of God, like invisible dust devils etc., but no point worrying about those.
That said, I'm itching for it to get warmer so I can go put myself in danger again.
Blue skies,
Joe

[n2skdvn 0]

when its your time its your time we had a guy hook this past week hit the ground shoud of been dead from the impact but walked away with out a scratch(you would have to see the video)im not condoning hooking just know your canopy and what you can do woth it my friend knows he should be dead and has chosen to take a step back know your limits push them but not too hard ......my 2 cents worth
its not my fault,my mind was not clear
its all because of the heineken beer......

[skybytch 273]

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If the odds were that high, I would have been injured a long time ago.

If you jump a lot, eventually something's going to happen. Maybe you'll be the exception; I hope so cuz I hate seeing anyone get hurt. But after knowing lots of people with lots of experience and lots more without lots of experience who have a bad day or make a mistake or to whom shit just happened and they ended up limping back to the packing area or worse, I stand by my statement.
pull and flare,
lisa
--
What would Scooby Doo?

[scottbre 0]

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Skydiving is not safe.

This sort of seems like a blanket answer for a complicated question. Safe is only a term that can be used in relation to something else. Sure you have a chance of having a fatal malfunction in skydiving or doing something that can result in injury to yourself. However, there is also a chance that you could have a heart attack on your couch at age 35 having spent the majority of the free time in your life there.
Yes, skydiving is less safe than being an avid walker, but you can still get hurt or killed just walking. It is fair to say that skydiving is a dangerous activity, but it is also fair to say that you can be a "safe skydiver." The possibility of something happening is still there but that is a risk vs. reward decision that every person has to make in all the choices that they are presented with or present themselves with in life.
Cars can be very unsafe and very dangerous, but a person can still be a "safe driver." That person has acknowledged the risks of driving a car, and has chosen to take those risks and attempt to mitigate them by taking certain precautions to help reduce the risks, making the act of driving a car as safe as possible. Same thing goes for skydiving.
"Let the rabbits wear glasses. . . "

[MarkM 0]

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"If you jump out of airplanes you're bound to get hurt eventually; it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when and how bad."
I'm sorry, I have to disagree w/ this one. Why do i have to eventually get hurt? I accept that yes it is possible, but not inevitable

I'd have to agree with Hook on this one. I don't look at my instructor who has 1600 jumps and think she's on borrowed time, that eventually jumping will catch up with her and she'll go in because it's inevitable for all skydivers to burn in.

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What the hell about this sport is safe?

Part of this arguement is everyone here is going to have a different definition of "safe".
I wouldn't consider skydiving safe if there was an eventual fatal or extreme injury outcome of jumping, likely to happen to every diver, that simply could not be avoided.
Putting a student under a lightly loaded canopy is safe. Putting one under a VX 78 is unsafe. Why? The student is likely to screw up a landing sometime in the future. Under the lightly loaded canopy that will probably result in a broken bone, under a heavily loaded canopy it'll kill them.

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If you jump a lot, eventually something's going to happen.

Right. But that doesn't mean it has to kill or maim you.

[Muenkel 0]

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You wouldn't see people spending lots of time and money at AFF pre-courses.

There are AFF pre-courses? I am scheduled to begin AFF on May 2nd. My DZ never told me there were AFF pre-courses. All I was told was to show up with tennis shoes and a good attitude...literally.
I am very excited about entering this sport. My intention is to enjoy it by being safe and smart. Being a skiier, I can't tell you how many people I have seen being taken down the mountain on a board because they were showing off and got way too aggressive for their ability. Pursuing sports is about living and enjoying life to the fullest. This is pretty hard to do from a wheelchair. Yes, accidents do happen to the smartest and most talented of people (there is always risk involved), but using your head is the best defense.
"I am a victim of my environment."
Chris