What Will It Take......

[rgoper 0]

........to stop the injuries, and death in our sport. i've seen quite a bit about downsizing, and swooping here in the last few weeks, and have held my tongue. now a friend of mine from the houston area is lying up fighting for his life because of this very thing. i refer to it as "hot-dogging" i know of about four people who do it, and do it so well that there is no doubt in my mind that they will pull out. but this young man didn't have the jump numbers, nor the experience. i'm not wanting to rant here, i'm just concerned for "our family" please think twice before you downsize, please think two more times before you try "hook turns, and turf surfing/swooping, etc" LOW GROUND TURNS KILL. my heart goes out to this young man's wife, i wish him well, i hope she holds up.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

It's never a good thing. I hope they pull through ok. People should learn from this.
You shouldn't put a knife in the toaster - but you're an adult now !!!

[freeflir29 0]

BSBD......
"I only have 131 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[lazerq3 0]

I think a little of the problem is the " this cant/wnot happen to me" attitude! Unfortunatly it CAN. and I'm sure people who have had tramitising experiances be it jumping or anything have had that saying go through there head. I know I have. I done stupid things in my life were I've said "oh I'll be ok , its not going to happen to me." Luckliy nothing has yet but it only takes that one time. A little respect for what your are doing/trying will go a long way. However accidents will happen and the beast we can do is learn from them.!!
jason

[MarkM 0]

Quote

but this young man didn't have the jump numbers, nor the experience.

Date Location Category Age # Jumps
4/13/01 DeLand, FL LAND 30 4700+
6/9/01 Pepperell, MA LOWT 41 900+
6/17/01 Buckeye, AZ LAND ?? Lots
8/2/01 Monroe, GA LOWT 40+? experienced
8/26/01 Gardiner, NY LOWT 41 3100
The ground doesn't care how many jumps you have or how experienced you are.
I'd say more, but since I'm a student my opinion doesn't merit much.

[freeflir29 0]

Good point Mark....I have seen a lot of deaths lately when jump numbers are pretty high.
"I only have 131 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

There's an attitude there that if you have a lot of jumps, you know you're shit so you won't get hurt. You need to treat your canopy with respect, especially with today's pocket rockets.
You shouldn't put a knife in the toaster - but you're an adult now !!!

[freeflir29 0]

"You need to treat your canopy with respect, especially with today's pocket rockets."
I'm pretty sure my PD 190 will go fast enough to kill me.....pretty sure.....
"I only have 131 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[rgoper 0]

mark:
i'll agree with that theory on the jump numbers/age/experience, but on the other hand what i was trying to get at is the number of people who want to downsize and swoop with 50-100 jumps. i know some "catch on" faster than others, BUT we have to remember "what kind of example are we setting?" for the newbies in our sport. let's face it sky diving is more mainstream now, thus the numbers are increasing in our sport dramatically, i'm concerned about these people, and my desire is to not have them added to barry's page. my question still remains the same "what will it take?"
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[Sebazz1 2]

What can you really do? There is nothing about approaching the ground at high speeds that is safe.........
It's going to take a ban on high speed approaches (though people will still get hurt on landing, some people just turn low to the ground without the intent of swooping - had a close friend die doing that - he was very conservative just made a mistake) And I know that I certainly don't want someone telling me how to land, but can you think of anything else?
Lisa (skybytch0 mentioned in a seperate post that she did not want skydiving to be mainsteram and that it overall would be bad for the sport because it is dangerous. Maybe it's just a fact and people should be aware??? It's getting late I can't write anymore............
I hope your friend our skydiving family member heals.........
Seb

[Hooknswoop 19]

some people w/ a lot of jumps can handle hooking a small x-brace, most can't. I don't know of any low-time jumper that can handle hooking a small x-brace. 4000 jumps does not make you a great canopy pilot. I watch very experienced people toggle hook and bust their asses all the time.
Most people overestimate their abilities. Take the AFF course for example, a 49% pass rate. No one spends over $1000 to try and get their AFF rating thinking they will fail. They look at AFFI's at their DZ and say to themselves "Hey, I am as good as they are.....I can pass the AFF course if they did." The reality is they are not as good as they think they are and are pissed when they fail the course and have to face the reality of their level of skill. they blame the evaulators, the weather, the pilot, anyone but themselves.
Derek

[Zennie 0]

I was debating whether to post the specifics of this incident a second time, but I think it's appropriate here. This is basically a cut & paste of my post under the Canopy Advice thread. I'm posting it again to maybe get the message out to some other people.
I presume he is still in intensive care, and if he's made it this far, chances are probably decent that he'll live. However, the day after the incident he had a cardiac arrest that they were fortunately able to revive him from.
This jumper, for reasons that are unknown to all the jumpers I talked to, decided to try a 180 hook turn for the first time at somewhere between 100-200 feet on a canopy loaded around 1.4. He impacted still in a double-front riser dive. The result? Both legs broken in several places (including both femurs), a ruptured spleen, a damaged kidney (which may never function again), a damaged liver and a ruptured aorta (that he didn't bleed to death is nothing short of a miracle). And those are only the injuries I know of.
I went out to where he hit and there were literally impact marks several inches deep in the ground. It was easy to figure out which divot belonged to his feet, knees elbows and face. Made all of us sick. I'm glad I wasn't there for the actual incident.
People like Derek, Lisa, Chuck and other people with thousands more jumps are valuable resources who possess information which can literally save our lives... if we put our egos on the shelf, be patient and heed their advice.
Please people be careful and don't try any new radical maneuvers close to the ground. Try them up high and then work gradually downward.
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[rgoper 0]

i'm in complete agreement of everything you say. but it would seem as long as DZ'S and DZO'S are willing to let someone of a low, or questionable skill level do aff, tm, camera, etc....my belief is that the numbers will continue to rise. this particular young man was flying camera, filming a tandem, and hooked in his sabre 120 with a wing of about 1.58, which isn't a factor in my mind. my question is "should he have been there to begin with?" all of this doesn't matter, and obviously the "self police" doesn't work worth a damn. so what do we do? i'm just under 300 jumps, and 1 1/2 years in the sport, i was entertaining the idea of taking aff coaching classes, i think i just re-thought that. like my very first tm told me before we ever exited the aircraft "it's all about living" you know who you are! he's one of the people i refer to when i say i don't know but a few people qualified to hook/swoop (personally) take care everybody.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[rgoper 0]

**People like Derek, Lisa, Chuck and other people with thousands more jumps are valuable resources who possess information which can literally save our lives... if we put our egos on the shelf, be patient and heed their advice.**
Zenmeister:
BINGO.......this is what i was hoping to get out. i hope everyone is paying attention to this very wise statement from a very wise individual. this is the only way to keep barry's numbers down.
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[MarkM 0]

I don't have a problem with people wanting to swoop, because really it's their life and they're not hurting anyone. But I don't understand how it can really be done safely, no matter how many jumps you have.
Before people slam me, let me try to explain(have patience, because I probably won't do it well). I own a sportsbike. I will crash that sportsbike someday. There's too many unknowables for me to protect against to not crash that bike sometime in the future.
So I wear a helmet and armored jacket/gloves as my out. If I crash, it'll give me a chance to walk away. I think skydiving is safe for that same reason. If I leave the plane and break my right arm, I can't deploy. I'm screwed right? No, because my left arm can get my silver. Skydiving safety is all about those outs, those second chances when an unknowable comes your way and takes out your primary. Yeah, sometimes people die because there really is no out, but most of the fatality reports IMHO are when people fail to use their out or fail to execute the out properly.
Back to my bike. I got these sweet turns not too far from my house, the only ones for about 100 miles around(I live in Florida), problem is the turns have walls on the end of them. If I wipe out, I slam into a wall doing 70 mph.
My body armor won't do crap in that situation. Do I go there sometimes? Yeah, but pretty rarely and I don't push it. My friends carve that place up a lot and that's their busines. One has about 10 years riding experience and wiped out at 15mph turning onto a road leaving from there last month. His rear wheel just "gave out", slid, caught and the bike threw him. Broke his wrist. He would've died if that had happened in one of those corners they carve.
Last year one of the skygods at Skydive America had his canopy collapse at 100 feet. Totally freak thing, it put him in a coma. I don't know anything about flying, but I can't help but believe that the air is going to be full of just as many unknowables to a canopy as the street is to racebike.
So I don't think hook turns are generally a safe thing to do, no matter what the experience level, because if you get hit by one of those unknowables I don't see where your out is.

[PhreeZone 20]

Quote

Last year one of the skygods at Skydive America had his canopy collapse at 100 feet.

Skygod? John was the furthest thing from a skygod that I've ever known. I had talked to him about coming down for coaching, but did'nt want to waste my money doing just intro stuff with him. He told me tricks and tips that I'm yet to be see on here. John is one of the coolest people around and I hope he fully recovers one day soon because I never did get to jump with him. Before you judge someone, get to know that person....
Political Correctness - At least one person at any one time will be offended by something

[freeflir29 0]

I think it was a general term Phree. Only meaning that the guy had lots of jumps...not derogatory....
"I only have 131 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[billvon 3,109]

Quote

Most people overestimate their abilities. Take the AFF course for example, a 49% pass rate. No one spends over $1000 to try and get their AFF rating thinking they will fail. They look at AFFI's at their DZ and say to themselves "Hey, I am as good as they are.....I can pass the AFF course if they did." The reality is they are not as good as they think they are and are pissed when they fail the course and have to face the reality of their level of skill. they blame the evaulators, the weather, the pilot, anyone but themselves.

I went into the AFF JCC knowing I had about a 50/50 shot. I had made about 40 practice jumps, had hired an evaluator to practice with, and had the proficiency card filled out. I still wasn't sure I would pass, and was even less sure after I got a zero on one dive from misreading an altimeter. I ended up passing by the skin of my teeth.
I don't think most skydivers think they are infallible. If they did, you wouldn't see people using AAD's, RSL's and helmets. You wouldn't see people spending lots of time and money at AFF pre-courses.
-bill von

[Hooknswoop 19]

On the bike analogy:
What if you drove you motorcycle in a huge parking lot where you could see everyone else. There is a concrete wall on one end of the lot. The only other people that are even close to you are on mopeds. Maybe on or two other big bikes like yours in the parking lot, and they are easy to keep track of. You have a lot of time riding the bike and even more time thinking about riding the bike and preparing for what-ifs. You started on a moped and worked you way up to the ZX-11. You have studied other canoies and discussed techniques and ideas for hours at a time with other big-bike riders. You pick your days to ride and only when you are really focused and ready for it. For fun you will get up to speed and drive towards the wall, turning to parallel it with a couple of feet, similar to race car drivers as the come out of a turn, except w/o the cars around them. You always start the turn early enough that even if you are a little late, you can easily turn harder to avoid hittig the wall. You do this 1-10 times in a day and have done it thousands of times. But you NEVER get complacent, you focus, prepare, visualize, and stay situationally aware each time. You de-brief each run in your mind afterwords, picking it apart. Always striving to make it smoother, closer to perfection. Think you could safely ride?
Derek

[freeflir29 0]

"Think you could safely ride?"
Most of the time...yes......"I only have 131 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[MarkM 0]

Quote

think it was a general term Phree. Only meaning that the guy had lots of jumps...not derogatory....

I totally didn't mean that to sound derogatory. I've never met anyone at Skydive American who looked down on me when I was up there for the first time last weekend and I plan on making that my home DZ.
It has a lot of "skygods", meaning that there are extremely skilled people there that I hope I can learn something from.
I'm from smaller DZs, Cessna shops with barely a runway. So when I see the kind of skill I see down here, yes I consider it skygodhood. But I don't mean that in any negative way.

[Hooknswoop 19]

I don't think that most skydivers think they are infallible, I think they overestimate their abilities. People wouldn't downsize to a canopy they couldn't handle if they didn't think they could handle it. The guy that femured under his VX-74 after a dozen or so jumps on it didn't think he could never possibly get hurt, but he did think he could handle the canopy.
Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

From the SIM's
As with all phases of skydiving, night jumping is made safe through:
a. special training
b. suitable equipment
c. pre-planning
d. good judgement
Are hook turns "safe"? No. Is jumping out of an airplane "safe"? No. They are both more dangerous than sitting on the couch watching the Flinstones, eatin Captain Crunch. But you can reduce the risk of both activities using a-d. I have about 2000 hooks turns the majority on an FX-70 loaded at 2.6 and a VX-60 loaded at 3.1 and I have never hit the ground. the closest I have gotten is on two occasions afterr my swoop I lost my footing and slipped and fell down. No femurs, no hip-checks, no tumbling through my lines. They aren't a lot of jumpers that can say they haven't ever eaten it in 2700 jumps even w/o hook turns and small canopies. Can I drive an Indy car at 200mph around a race track. Heck no, I am pretty sure I would die. Hook turns are not for everyone and either is skydiving.
I don't advocate hook turns, buy I do scoff at people that can't fly a canopy like I do tell me that hook turns are dangerous. No different than how skydivers scoff at people that have never jumped that tell them that skydiving is dangerous and they are going to get injured or killed.
Derek

[MarkM 0]

Quote

Think you could safely ride?

There's certainly a skill element. I personally think swooping should be taught, so you don't have moped skill riders riding at the wall on a R1. Which is where a lot of accidents are going to happen.
You have more skill, you can ride the wall more safely.
There's a new race track opening up in north Florida my friends are excited about. It's designed specifically for bikes, no cars are allowed on it.
It doesn't have walls on the turn ends. The bike tracks in Europe also don't have walls, they have run offs you can slide on.
I totally support your right to swoop Hook. And I agree approaching it a certain way greatly reduces the risk, but I'd never call it safe just because of that lack of an out when things go bad.
Racing a motorcyle on a track designed for cars(walled up), isn't something I'd call safe even if you were Matt Maladin.

[freeflir29 0]

Well said Derek.....
"I only have 131 jumps, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay