Suggestion for swooping issue

[billvon 3,085]

> The last double fatality at Eloy was two non-swoopers both under large canopies.

Right. And the immediate cause of the death was not flying a pattern. The military jumper was, the canadian student was doing 360's in the pattern. It doesn't take a swooper to cause a fatality by not flying a standard pattern. As I mentioned before, the problem is not swoopers, the problem is swoopers who refuse to fly a pattern with everyone else.

[ozzy13 0]

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It's not a swooping issue. It's a skydiving issue. Remember, the last incident in Eloy did not involve swoopers.

It may not be possible to memorize everybody's canopy colors, even at your home dz, but it is possible to learn to visually recognize the differences between a crossbraced canopy (very likely to fly a high performance pattern), a non-crossbraced "elliptical" canopy (likely to fly a high performance pattern) and a less aggressive canopy (likely to fly a traditional pattern). If you can do this, you can pretty much tell who's going to be doing what without knowing that Bob's canopy is black and green and he's a swooper or that Joe's canopy is all red and he does a traditional pattern.

How can you learn this? By spending some time in the landing area watching loads land while you aren't jumping.

Thats great for the expriened but what about the new jumper that might not know that

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[yardhippie 0]

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It's not a swooping issue. It's a skydiving issue. Remember, the last incident in Eloy did not involve swoopers.

It may not be possible to memorize everybody's canopy colors, even at your home dz, but it is possible to learn to visually recognize the differences between a crossbraced canopy (very likely to fly a high performance pattern), a non-crossbraced "elliptical" canopy (likely to fly a high performance pattern) and a less aggressive canopy (likely to fly a traditional pattern). If you can do this, you can pretty much tell who's going to be doing what without knowing that Bob's canopy is black and green and he's a swooper or that Joe's canopy is all red and he does a traditional pattern.

How can you learn this? By spending some time in the landing area watching loads land while you aren't jumping.

Thats great for the expriened but what about the new jumper that might not know that

Then it is up to US to teach that new jumper. Just because its not in the FJC, it doesnt mean its not valid life saving info.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[Andy9o8 2]

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I stand by the fact that I believe education is the most important part of any decision we make here.

I know of DZ's that offered Scotts class for FREE to instructors but instructors didn't take them because 'they didn't need them'. I've seen 'experienced' skydivers say the same thing. To me, it's pretty clear where a LARGE part of the problem lies, and it's those (regardless of what wings they jump), that don't dedicate time to learning the one part of the skydive that we ALL share, regardless of discipline.

I agree 100%. I submit that we can separate landing areas for swoopers and non-swoopers but until every skydiver is educated the carnage will continue.

The only way to be sure that every skydiver gets educated is to change the culture of skydiving so that it's cool to take a canopy control course. The fastest way to do that, imho, is to make it a requirement, not just for pre-A licensed jumpers, not just for swoopers, but for all of us.

Agreed. By example, there are many professions (and not just medicine or law) in which a minimum number of hours per year of continuing education are required to maintain one's privilege to practice.

[riggerrob 643]

You are now at 300 feet. What do you do?

1) Continue your approach into the landing area.

2) Check left and right, flat turn away, and land out crosswind to avoid him.

3) Sashay hard to keep him in sight and land short.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

1) is the safest option

2) and 3) are worse. They are worse because you are not longer flying a predictable pattern.
The swooper above you should clear the air before starting his 270(?), then aim for an open part of the field (ideally the swoop lane).
If you change your approach below 300, you make it more difficult for the swooper to understand your landing pattern and more difficult to avoid you.

[marks2065 0]

maybe it will continue - every other kind of proble has continued - but maybe the totals will drop a good amount everybody seems to be pissed at each other that the other persons idea won't fix the problem but it would help - maybe instead of 9 deaths as in 2006 2008 may only have 2 - problem isn't fixed but got alot better - headed in the right direction - just like all the other catagories - not fixed but alot better

[brianfry713 0]

A lot of people are posting referring to the Eloy incident. They weren't swooping, but one of them was flying a canopy that was difficult to see, and one of them was a student. So it seems like the best solution would be to have separate landing and pattern areas for normal patterns, high performance approaches, students, and military. I think that is great if the DZ layout would allow for it, but at some DZs, there is only a limited amount of space available for landing.

So IMHO the best solution isn't for the FAA or USPA to mandate anything regarding landing policies, it's up to each DZ to have a policy that works best for their LZ, aircraft, and jumpers. If you don't like what the DZ is doing talk to the DZO or S&TA. If you still don't like it, either land somewhere else or jump at a different DZ.

Some large airports do this by having a small runway(s) for small aircraft, and the large runway(s) for jets. Of course, the large airports also have a control tower, and they can revoke your pilot's license if you don't follow the rules. A lot of the times there will also be different patterns for large airplanes, small airplanes, helicopters, and gliders. The right of way also goes to the least maneuverable aircraft.

[billvon 3,085]

>So it seems like the best solution would be to have separate landing
>and pattern areas for normal patterns, high performance approaches,
>students, and military. I think that is great if the DZ layout would allow for
>it, but at some DZs, there is only a limited amount of space available for
>landing.

Normal and HP patterns - agreed.

Students - This often happens anyway because the 'main' landing area is too small for students. If the main area is big enough. then I don't see any problem with combining students and normal patterns. "See and avoid" works well if everyone is flying the same pattern.

Military - military operations are a completely different issue, since their requirements are often far different than sport skydivers.

>the best solution isn't for the FAA or USPA to mandate anything
>regarding landing policies, it's up to each DZ to have a policy that works
>best for their LZ, aircraft, and jumpers. If you don't like what the DZ is
>doing talk to the DZO or S&TA. If you still don't like it, either land
>somewhere else or jump at a different DZ.

This is exactly what we have now. So if you are OK with the current fatality rate, it would make sense to keep the current system. Personally I do not think the current fatality rate (and especially the number of jumpers killed by other jumpers) is OK - so I think we need to make some changes.

[yardhippie 0]

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>So it seems like the best solution would be to have separate landing
>and pattern areas for normal patterns, high performance approaches,
>students, and military. I think that is great if the DZ layout would allow for
>it, but at some DZs, there is only a limited amount of space available for
>landing.

Normal and HP patterns - agreed.

Yea! Bill and I agree!

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Students - This often happens anyway because the 'main' landing area is too small for students. If the main area is big enough. then I don't see any problem with combining students and normal patterns. "See and avoid" works well if everyone is flying the same pattern.
***

Again! 2 for 2.

>the best solution isn't for the FAA or USPA to mandate anything
>regarding landing policies, it's up to each DZ to have a policy that works
>best for their LZ, aircraft, and jumpers. If you don't like what the DZ is
>doing talk to the DZO or S&TA. If you still don't like it, either land
>somewhere else or jump at a different DZ.

This is exactly what we have now. So if you are OK with the current fatality rate, it would make sense to keep the current system. Personally I do not think the current fatality rate (and especially the number of jumpers killed by other jumpers) is OK - so I think we need to make some changes.

Darn it. I though we might have a 3 for 3.
I know Ive never seen, at the DZ I call home, the number of people willing to "talk" to other jumpers b/c of their canopy flight. Never have I seen our S&TA so vigilant to ground those that make grievous mistakes. Never have I seen our DZO spend the entire day listening, talking, evaluating ALL those that who came to speak with him.

I contend that we do have the ability, and everything I've seen this past weekend suggests that we're taking the correct steps in the right direction.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[billvon 3,085]

>I know Ive never seen, at the DZ I call home, the number of people
>willing to "talk" to other jumpers b/c of their canopy flight. Never have I
> seen our S&TA so vigilant to ground those that make grievous mistakes.
>Never have I seen our DZO spend the entire day listening, talking,
>evaluating ALL those that who came to speak with him.

I've seen it before. It happened right after the Roger Nelson incident, I think because there was no obvious reason for the fatality. It will happen again, and for a few months everyone will be talking about it.

Then someone will go in because of a freefall collision, and they will talk about that. And that guy who does the 270's in the pattern will go back to doing them, because he's always done them, he's never caused a collision and "the heat is off." One need only to read the threads on this forum to know that these people exist.

And two years from now there will be another collision, and people will say "We must educate people and become more aware!" And we will - for another few months.

We need something written down in the most permanent history of skydiving mistakes we have - the BSR's. That way, six months from now, a jumper who gets cut off by a swooper can go to the DZO and tell him "would you please tell that guy to cut it out?" And he won't be told "well, he's the head of the student program, so he's sort of making the rules" or whatever it is DZO's say when they don't feel like they want to be assholes to their best employees/customers.

>I contend that we do have the ability, and everything I've seen this past
>weekend suggests that we're taking the correct steps in the right direction.

We absolutely do have the ability. We won't use it. We never have, not without something to back it up when people start forgetting about the past. Heck, why should a new swooper who starts doing 270's next weekend care about these two "old fossils" who killed each other? They have nothing to do with _him._ And it's not like it's a BSR.

[yardhippie 0]

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Heck, why should a new swooper who starts doing 270's next weekend care about these two "old fossils" who killed each other? They have nothing to do with _him._ And it's not like it's a BSR.

Sadly, I cant really say why.
Other than, I expect more out of our community that we are apparently able to give.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[skr 1]

> Other than, I expect more out of our community
> than we are apparently able to give.

Eeeeeee .. The anguish of that statement!

I know that feeling really, really well.


I'm with billvon on this one:

> We absolutely do have the ability. We won't use it. We never have

I was talking to a friend of mine a few years ago
about hook turns in traffic, and spiraling, and mindless
downsizing, and lack of basic canopy training, and ...

He's a well known, well respected guy who
picks up the bodies at a major DZ and has
tried to change and educate for years.

He said he had finally concluded that (in terms of
effort required) that it's easier to keep putting
people in body bags than it is to change people's
minds and behaviour.

[toronto_bill 0]

Sigh. Your buddy is probably right on the effort scale.

My two cents is ...

Designate a swooping area. With a good access for ambulances and a heli pad.
maybe..All swoopers land last, after pulling high (if they can) and sit in brakes.

The best advice I got was from Scott Miller. Try to count all the canopies from your load. If you can't find them all then you should be thinking of defense not offense or apathy to the fact.

But there is no solution to people who aren't paying attention.

[superstu 0]

Edited to remove duplicate post.

The points you make are valid ones, but you've posted the same thing three times in three different threads. Best to just make one post at a time.

Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down

[pimpD 0]

I never post here but here it goes one time. Ian is the most correct here. EDUCATE! no matter what you do with the landing ares or the degree of turns there will always be accidents. The more people know right from the begining ie student status harp on canopy piloting. I have so many people that come to my seminars and have no clue of what a pattern is what there control inputs do how to hold in brakes and most of all fly with your head on a swivel. People please no matter what get educated on the sport of canopy piloting no matter if your jumping a safire 190 to a extreme 79 the sport is evolving stay up with your skills. Thanks

Dusty Smith Icarus Canopies Mirage Sys
Cookie Composite Sonic Flywear

[dharma1976 0]

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I never post here but here it goes one time. Ian is the most correct here. EDUCATE! no matter what you do with the landing ares or the degree of turns there will always be accidents. The more people know right from the begining ie student status harp on canopy piloting. I have so many people that come to my seminars and have no clue of what a pattern is what there control inputs do how to hold in brakes and most of all fly with your head on a swivel. People please no matter what get educated on the sport of canopy piloting no matter if your jumping a safire 190 to a extreme 79 the sport is evolving stay up with your skills. Thanks

Thus there is talk of canopy coach rating and people focusing more on it during student status

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[diablopilot 2]

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I never post here but here it goes one time. Ian is the most correct here. EDUCATE! no matter what you do with the landing ares or the degree of turns there will always be accidents. The more people know right from the begining ie student status harp on canopy piloting. I have so many people that come to my seminars and have no clue of what a pattern is what there control inputs do how to hold in brakes and most of all fly with your head on a swivel. People please no matter what get educated on the sport of canopy piloting no matter if your jumping a safire 190 to a extreme 79 the sport is evolving stay up with your skills. Thanks

Thus there is talk of canopy coach rating and people focusing more on it during student status

Cheers

Dave

I thought there was one already? It's called "AFF instructor"

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[pimpD 0]

I have seen people with 400 jumps with a AFF rating nuf said! You should know that JP. But I agree with you yo!

Dusty Smith Icarus Canopies Mirage Sys
Cookie Composite Sonic Flywear

[dharma1976 0]

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I never post here but here it goes one time. Ian is the most correct here. EDUCATE! no matter what you do with the landing ares or the degree of turns there will always be accidents. The more people know right from the begining ie student status harp on canopy piloting. I have so many people that come to my seminars and have no clue of what a pattern is what there control inputs do how to hold in brakes and most of all fly with your head on a swivel. People please no matter what get educated on the sport of canopy piloting no matter if your jumping a safire 190 to a extreme 79 the sport is evolving stay up with your skills. Thanks

Thus there is talk of canopy coach rating and people focusing more on it during student status

Cheers

Dave

I thought there was one already? It's called "AFF instructor"

that being said do you really think that enough time is spent on canopy JP?

I guess we could just leave that one to aftermarket coaching being lets see one of the more important aspects of it I mean it does get us to the ground and keeps us from killing one another (and that being said we are all human and may just in fact just make mistakes every once in a while)

but you get where I am going with that...

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[diablopilot 2]

There is another thread around here that kinda sums up my feelings about the newer generation and state of AFF instruction in general.

I know my AFF instructors took the time to cover WAY more than freefall.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[dharma1976 0]

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There is another thread around here that kinda sums up my feelings about the newer generation and state of AFF instruction in general.

I know my AFF instructore took the time to cover WAY more than freefall.

maybe you are saying I should become an AFF Instructor


Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.