GrumpySmurf 0 #26 February 25, 2002 Would have to agree with that opinion. I think the US is coming to realize that it's 'relative' shake-and-bake forgien policy of the recent past needs to be replaced by a policy that doesn't just deal with a crisis at hand, but also considers future ramifications of that policy, especially when deaing with an 'alien' culture. How they are now handling Afganistan appears to be a step in the right direction - if you're gonna blow stuff up, then stick around help clean up the mess afterwards - seems to have worked well with Germany and Japan, over 50 years later. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freefallfreak 0 #27 February 25, 2002 scottbre,Let's not get into a flame war here..you posted your opinion..It's time I posted mine...Human?? Not likely..they live in caves like animals, they kill indiscriminately, they wipe their asses with their left hand (sans toilet tissue). There are a thousand other differences here. Unfortunately, I don't know all the differences. And bottom line is, I don't want to know...but the idiots you are taking up for don't deserve to live on the same planet as me...I am a 100% service-connected disabled veteran (Viet Nam) and proud of serving my country...I am as, if not more, patriotic than most civilians...yes, I would stand and fight against these idiots, to the death, to protect the US way of life. If you can't say the same thing, and mean it from the deepest recesses in your heart, then maybe you don't belong here. I can't speak for you. I don't know what is in your heart. But if you are enjoying the product of the freedom given to each American at birth, and you don't agree with our policies, become a politician and change things...or leave...TripleF "If you have something vital and it's sincere, you can communicate." Butch Trucks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #28 February 25, 2002 I'm with you.. These people would poisen your children if given the chance.. They must be exterminated immediately. In fact that is what Bush is doing.. Cudo's for the Pres...These people are complete idiots. I could give a damn about their beliefs if their beliefs include killing our children and loved ones. Thay asked for this. It didn't have to be this way. But now it is. And they will be dealt with.Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #29 February 25, 2002 jt,You are welcome brother.. I'd do it again and again..I'll keep fighting for my son.. No doubt about that..Blue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #30 February 25, 2002 scottbre,Make no mistake about it.. It is a sacrifice and a way of life that people chose for your benefit.. I entered the Marines to SERVE my country and to protect freedom. That is what I did. You have no clue as to what you are talking about where the military is concerned. Apparently you will never know. Maybe you can learn something from the passion coming from the Vets in here. Everytime I hear the Star Spangled Banner tears well up in my eyes with pride in my country. Everytime I hear God Bless America tears well up in my eyes. I am proud of my country, I am proud of those who have served, and those who are serving. I am proud to be one of them. I know what it is to be one of them so I am qualified to boast my opinion from both sides of the line. Civilian and military although I will never be a civilian completely.My hat goes off to EVERY civilian that takes advantage of the freedom the servicemen provide with the giving of their very lives. Make no mistake about it.. It is a sacrifice..RhinoBlue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottbre 0 #31 February 25, 2002 Note to skybytch: We are not having a flame war, we are having a discussion. QuoteUnfortunately, I don't know all the differences. And bottom line is, I don't want to know...I don't know all the differences either, but no one is born evil. And you can't just simplify the workings of the world down to a paragraph or two. It doesn't work that way. Nothing is that simple. Ignorance or willing ignorance of something is not an excuse to take irrational actions. Quotebut the idiots you are taking up for don't deserve to live on the same planet as me...Please don't twist my words. I am not "taking up" for anyone. I just am open to the fact that there are generally reasons for why people do things. In few instances do people believe what they are doing is bad. (There will always be the exceptions to this) Generally people choose to do something because they believe that it is either right, or that it will benefit them.QuoteI am a 100% service-connected disabled veteran (Viet Nam) and proud of serving my country...I am as, if not more, patriotic than most civilians...yes, I would stand and fight against these idiots, to the death, to protect the US way of life.You have just stated a very good reason for why you believe what you believe. From what I undestand, most people with a military background have a very unerring attitude of discord against anything anti-American. But for all the strong and noble feelings you have for America, those people who hijacked the planes on September 11, 2001 had just as strong or stronger feelings that what they were doing was pure and right as well. That doesn't mean that it was right, and it does mean that I am "standing up" for those people. I'm not. In the same token there are things that happen all the time on American soil that are just as evil and a result of people being misled with a gross twisting and warping of what they are told and convinced is right.Quoteyes, I would stand and fight against these idiots, to the death, to protect the US way of life. If you can't say the same thing, and mean it from the deepest recesses in your heart, then maybe you don't belong here. I can't speak for you.That's right, you can't speak for me. Please try not to interpret for me either. Let others decide for themselves what I am trying to say.As far as "standing and fighting for the US way of life," that is an issue I haven't yet had to deal with. I believe my skills lie elsewhere than fighting, and I think the only way that I would fight is as a last resort. I believe violence should be used only as a last resort. I believe the ideology that you are referring to in the quote is that of national socialism. Where you don't get or deserve rights unless you are totally patriotic and loyal to your country and government regardless. Whether national socialism is good idea is a whole other can of worms that I will attempt to not open by throwing out other countries that have been run under that philosophy. But I have as much right to be here as you do, regardless of whether I choose to see things from multiple points of view or not.QuoteBut if you are enjoying the product of the freedom given to each American at birth, and you don't agree with our policies, become a politician and change things...or leave...More like become a politician and try to change things. Once again, that is another whole ball of wax in itself. If I felt that the average politician ever got half of what they envisioned, before being elected, accomplished that might be a consideration. There is no perfect place to live anywhere, and whereever you live, after living there awhile you start to have similar views on things as the other people around you do, because that is where you life is.But I don't believe that just "killing them" is the best way to handle these types of things."Let the rabbits wear glasses. . . " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottbre 0 #32 February 25, 2002 QuoteYou have no clue as to what you are talking about where the military is concerned. Apparently you will never know. Maybe you can learn something from the passion coming from the Vets in here.You're absolutely right, on both counts. I have no desire to ever become involved in the military, and thus I will never fully understand that viewpoint. Whether that viewpoint is wrong or right is for me to decide for myself, but you can't say that it isn't a strongly biased viewpoint. All viewpoints are biased one way or the other. I'm glad someone else is willing to do that with/to their lives because I am not."Let the rabbits wear glasses. . . " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #33 February 25, 2002 QuoteI'm glad someone else is willing to do that with/to their lives because I am not. Exactly the point we were trying to make at the beginning of this post. Now, tell a few of them thank you and you're done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #34 February 25, 2002 >what is up with these ppl who are saying we need to feel sympathetic for our enemies?(taliban/media kidnappers/etc)I have no sympathy for our enemies, but I do have sympathy for the innocent people in the way when they become casualties of a war that they have no part of. This goes for the people who died in the World Trade Center as well as the noncombatants killed in Afghanistan.That being said, we do have a duty to treat them humanely, treat our POW's (or non-POW enemy captives or whatever) well - both because it is the right thing to do and because their treatment will someday be used as a standard when someone decides how to treat a member of _our_ armed forces who is captured.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kmcguffee 0 #35 February 25, 2002 QuoteThat being said, we do have a duty to treat them humanely, treat our POW's (or non-POW enemy captives or whatever) well - both because it is the right thing to do and because their treatment will someday be used as a standard when someone decides how to treat a member of _our_ armed forces who is captured. Plus, it makes war so much nicer when they all surrender instead of fighting (like most of the Iraqui Army). The US likes to encourage enemies to surrender by treating our POWs humanely. Once the word gets out that we treat them better than their own country they start questioning their loyalty. [Tanks blowing up without them ever seeing the enemy doesn't hurt either.] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #36 February 25, 2002 These animals ARE NOT POW's. Their is a distinct difference. They are detainees.. Or lower for that matter. We don't want them to surrender and claim NOT TO BE TALIBAN any more.. We want them dead. Where they won't surface and kill your children any longer. This is not the same kind of war as Iraq.. No comparison.. These people are sick and the only way to cure their illness is to kill them.. There are no other options.RhinoBlue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #37 February 25, 2002 "their treatment will someday be used as a standard when someone decides how to treat a member of _our_ armed forces who is captured."That certainly hasn't been the record so far....."I only have a C license, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kmcguffee 0 #38 February 25, 2002 Well, not to get clinical or anything but the Taliban are POWs. The members of al Quaeda are 'detainees'. There are alot of differences between this war and the Persian Gulf but how we treat POWs or detainees is not one of them. The only reason al Quaeda members are not considered POWs is because they are not members of the armed forces of a state which is a requirement, under the Geneva Convention, to be statused a POW. We know whether or not they belong to the Taliban. Some lawyers will cry foul, as always, but the military knows. I would like nothing more than to 'kill them all' but in the long run this will cause us more trouble and sacrifice more American lives than that little bit of revenge is worth. The solution to this problem has many components: military, diplomatic, and economic and I'm not even going to pretend to know the answer, but it is more complex than 'kill them all'. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JDBoston 0 #39 February 25, 2002 That's all well and good as long as ya got the right people. Unfortunately when you apply that attitude in a less discriminating manner, you end up giving more support to the people you're trying to "exterminate." People who didn't support them before start thinking, hey, maybe those guys are right and the United States IS bad, etc. The Taliban isn't really the main problem. People in Afghanistan switch sides in wars like it's their job and they always have. The Taliban are by and large pretty ignorant of everything that's happened in the rest of the world in the last 1000 years or so and would never be a threat to anyone outside their immediate reach. The terrorists, on the other hand (mainly non-Afghans, in fact), are dangerous precisely BECAUSE they are hard to distinguish from harmless law-abiding citizens... and that's where things get tricky... and that's why I think we need to spend a lot more money on intelligence ops than on bombing people, unless we know for damn sure the bomb's going to get the right guys, which is tough to do.Joe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bill2 0 #40 February 25, 2002 I was in the Army for 9 years and just got out a year ago. One thing that really surprises me is how little the civilian community understands what the military does and how much their families sacrifice. ____________________________________you're right, the vast majority of the country has no idea what the military is like, how hard they work, the stresses they undergo. most of that is due to how, percentage wise, very few people go into the military these days. with the draft gone, most people don't even personally know someone/related to someone who was or is in the military. in years past, most families had someone who had served or was serving. Congress is now comprised of about 95% non veterans. this doesn't bode well for making astute votes on things that affect the military, and in turn affect us.another comment on the "yes but they're humans too". I agree they are humans, but I do think that in cases like this, just as we were in WWII, we should be absolutely ruthless in going after them and killing them. For all the bombing in Afghanistan, the US has killed very few civilians. And yes, I know that the people who were killed don't care about the accuracy of the bombs. I think Bush's comment about the axis of evil was correct, all three countries do abuse and murder their citizens, and the world would be a better place if all three goverments got taken out. Not the people, but the governments. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freefallfreak 0 #41 February 25, 2002 QuoteNote to skybytch: We are not having a flame war, we are having a discussion.Ditto...lol...Quote I don't know all the differences either, but no one is born evil. And you can't just simplify the workings of the world down to a paragraph or two. It doesn't work that way. Nothing is that simple. Ignorance or willing ignorance of something is not an excuse to take irrational actions.True, no one is born evil...they are taught by their families and peers. And I see no irrational actions being taken except for the irrational acts perpetrated on Sept 11. The US is simply reacting to these actions.Quotethey believe that it is either right, or that it will benefit them.Were the actions perpetrated on Sept. 11 right -- or did it benefit the aggressors?? I think not.QuoteBut for all the strong and noble feelings you have for America, those people who hijacked the planes on September 11, 2001 had just as strong or stronger feelings that what they were doing was pure and right as well.It is my understanding that the hi-jackers were not informed of the plans to crash the planes, with the exception of the pilot of each plane. This could be mis-information on my part, tho.Quote I think the only way that I would fight is as a last resort. I believe violence should be used only as a last resort.Which leads me to my point - if you don't believe in something, why stick with that something? Why not move on?? The "Herding Theory"??QuoteBut I have as much right to be here as you do, regardless of whether I choose to see things from multiple points of view or not.Of course, you do...thanks to millions of normal, everyday guys that have given their very lives for that right..QuoteThere is no perfect place to live anywhere, and whereever you live, after living there awhile you start to have similar views on things as the other people around you do, because that is where you life is.My home is where I chose to leave my heart, not because others feel as my heart feels, but because I will always love my land, no matter where I may reside at the moment. But your quote smells of a Herding instinct. I will never have similar views as others simply because they believe in something...I have a mind..With that being said - I shall retire from this thread...thank you for the "other" point of view...TripleF"If you have something vital and it's sincere, you can communicate." Butch Trucks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #42 February 25, 2002 This is not revenge. This is preventive maintenance. We have to prevent this from happening again. And in the long run other piss ant groups of idiots will think twice before screwing with anyone.. We will get them. Uncle Sam is WAY TO PISSED OFF to let them get away with this again. Uncle Sam has my vote to swing any size stick he needs to to protect my children and yours. We have these freedoms only because of the people that served in the military. Without them you would not have the rights you have today. They gave their lives so that people could stay here and be ungratefull and take their freedom for granted. They died so you can have that right.I am retiring from this thread also.. I have said my short but accurate piece..RhinoBlue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StevieBoy 0 #43 February 26, 2002 Fantistic post jtI read some intresting threads, opened my mind a little to some people's views, all justified in thier own right.One quote springs to mind that "I" think is apt to to what is being said here , imho The speech was made 29 October 1941 to the boys at Churchill's old public school, Harrow - "NEVER GIVE IN""Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.'' nuff said"Skydiving's a source, it'll change your life, swear to God" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GrumpySmurf 0 #44 February 26, 2002 Funny.This is very similar to a discussion that I had with a Muslim friend and a Jewish friend (at seperate times) on St.Patty's day last year (funny how alchohol can bring up these kinds of 'taboo' subjects )- each thought that the others people were a bunch of animals (they put it in a much more vulgar fashion) bent on their destruction. Look where it has gotten them?So destroy Al Quida, the Hezbolah, Hamas, etc, etc - until you correct the under lying problem, someone will always take thier place. The question begs asking, why do these people hate us so much that they are willing to commit suicide to kill us? Is it really a small minority of ex-Afgan fighters with no immediate enemy, so they went hunting for one? Or is it an underlying concern of an entire society about a culture (ours) that they know little about and that they feel is threatening them and thier way of life? The radical groups do need to be taken care of, but the situation and opinions that allows them to garner further support also needs to be addressed, in a way that doesn't rattle the wasps nest even more.On a side note, it was heartening to hear today that some in the Israeli government are considering the Saudi peace proposal. Maybe hope is not just a denial of reality, after all? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Billy 0 #45 February 26, 2002 I noticed some of these folks on the news tonight,, I was wondering why if they're so proud of their fuckin actions why they hide there face under a friggin blanket,, Hay thanks to all you vets,,, including my Dad, Gran Dad,, and friends,,, glad I never had ta live through that shit,,, an I have the right now ta say fuck you ta anyone,, but not you' all,, you're cool,,,,Don't read this shit down here,, it's nonsense,,, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jtval 0 #46 February 26, 2002 good pionts made by everyone. there is probably at least one thing in every post i agree with. some posts spoke my mind for me but those that didnt made thier view pionts understandable and even agreeable. thanks for not flaming here! its pretty cool that you all made your pionts and tolerated those that didnt see exactly on your level!have fun GO SKYDIVE!!! getting high is fun, but coming down is the best partJT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kmcguffee 0 #47 February 26, 2002 Quote"Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.'' Great man, great quote. Led his country through something similar, although larger scale in some ways, to what the US is going through now. Former Mayor Giuliani said he used Churchhill as a rolemodel during the weeks after 9/11. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jtval 0 #48 February 26, 2002 Im from NY and guiliani has done some amazing shit with that place. i say rudy for pres!getting high is fun, but coming down is the best partJT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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billvon 3,120 #34 February 25, 2002 >what is up with these ppl who are saying we need to feel sympathetic for our enemies?(taliban/media kidnappers/etc)I have no sympathy for our enemies, but I do have sympathy for the innocent people in the way when they become casualties of a war that they have no part of. This goes for the people who died in the World Trade Center as well as the noncombatants killed in Afghanistan.That being said, we do have a duty to treat them humanely, treat our POW's (or non-POW enemy captives or whatever) well - both because it is the right thing to do and because their treatment will someday be used as a standard when someone decides how to treat a member of _our_ armed forces who is captured.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #35 February 25, 2002 QuoteThat being said, we do have a duty to treat them humanely, treat our POW's (or non-POW enemy captives or whatever) well - both because it is the right thing to do and because their treatment will someday be used as a standard when someone decides how to treat a member of _our_ armed forces who is captured. Plus, it makes war so much nicer when they all surrender instead of fighting (like most of the Iraqui Army). The US likes to encourage enemies to surrender by treating our POWs humanely. Once the word gets out that we treat them better than their own country they start questioning their loyalty. [Tanks blowing up without them ever seeing the enemy doesn't hurt either.] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #36 February 25, 2002 These animals ARE NOT POW's. Their is a distinct difference. They are detainees.. Or lower for that matter. We don't want them to surrender and claim NOT TO BE TALIBAN any more.. We want them dead. Where they won't surface and kill your children any longer. This is not the same kind of war as Iraq.. No comparison.. These people are sick and the only way to cure their illness is to kill them.. There are no other options.RhinoBlue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #37 February 25, 2002 "their treatment will someday be used as a standard when someone decides how to treat a member of _our_ armed forces who is captured."That certainly hasn't been the record so far....."I only have a C license, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kmcguffee 0 #38 February 25, 2002 Well, not to get clinical or anything but the Taliban are POWs. The members of al Quaeda are 'detainees'. There are alot of differences between this war and the Persian Gulf but how we treat POWs or detainees is not one of them. The only reason al Quaeda members are not considered POWs is because they are not members of the armed forces of a state which is a requirement, under the Geneva Convention, to be statused a POW. We know whether or not they belong to the Taliban. Some lawyers will cry foul, as always, but the military knows. I would like nothing more than to 'kill them all' but in the long run this will cause us more trouble and sacrifice more American lives than that little bit of revenge is worth. The solution to this problem has many components: military, diplomatic, and economic and I'm not even going to pretend to know the answer, but it is more complex than 'kill them all'. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JDBoston 0 #39 February 25, 2002 That's all well and good as long as ya got the right people. Unfortunately when you apply that attitude in a less discriminating manner, you end up giving more support to the people you're trying to "exterminate." People who didn't support them before start thinking, hey, maybe those guys are right and the United States IS bad, etc. The Taliban isn't really the main problem. People in Afghanistan switch sides in wars like it's their job and they always have. The Taliban are by and large pretty ignorant of everything that's happened in the rest of the world in the last 1000 years or so and would never be a threat to anyone outside their immediate reach. The terrorists, on the other hand (mainly non-Afghans, in fact), are dangerous precisely BECAUSE they are hard to distinguish from harmless law-abiding citizens... and that's where things get tricky... and that's why I think we need to spend a lot more money on intelligence ops than on bombing people, unless we know for damn sure the bomb's going to get the right guys, which is tough to do.Joe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bill2 0 #40 February 25, 2002 I was in the Army for 9 years and just got out a year ago. One thing that really surprises me is how little the civilian community understands what the military does and how much their families sacrifice. ____________________________________you're right, the vast majority of the country has no idea what the military is like, how hard they work, the stresses they undergo. most of that is due to how, percentage wise, very few people go into the military these days. with the draft gone, most people don't even personally know someone/related to someone who was or is in the military. in years past, most families had someone who had served or was serving. Congress is now comprised of about 95% non veterans. this doesn't bode well for making astute votes on things that affect the military, and in turn affect us.another comment on the "yes but they're humans too". I agree they are humans, but I do think that in cases like this, just as we were in WWII, we should be absolutely ruthless in going after them and killing them. For all the bombing in Afghanistan, the US has killed very few civilians. And yes, I know that the people who were killed don't care about the accuracy of the bombs. I think Bush's comment about the axis of evil was correct, all three countries do abuse and murder their citizens, and the world would be a better place if all three goverments got taken out. Not the people, but the governments. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freefallfreak 0 #41 February 25, 2002 QuoteNote to skybytch: We are not having a flame war, we are having a discussion.Ditto...lol...Quote I don't know all the differences either, but no one is born evil. And you can't just simplify the workings of the world down to a paragraph or two. It doesn't work that way. Nothing is that simple. Ignorance or willing ignorance of something is not an excuse to take irrational actions.True, no one is born evil...they are taught by their families and peers. And I see no irrational actions being taken except for the irrational acts perpetrated on Sept 11. The US is simply reacting to these actions.Quotethey believe that it is either right, or that it will benefit them.Were the actions perpetrated on Sept. 11 right -- or did it benefit the aggressors?? I think not.QuoteBut for all the strong and noble feelings you have for America, those people who hijacked the planes on September 11, 2001 had just as strong or stronger feelings that what they were doing was pure and right as well.It is my understanding that the hi-jackers were not informed of the plans to crash the planes, with the exception of the pilot of each plane. This could be mis-information on my part, tho.Quote I think the only way that I would fight is as a last resort. I believe violence should be used only as a last resort.Which leads me to my point - if you don't believe in something, why stick with that something? Why not move on?? The "Herding Theory"??QuoteBut I have as much right to be here as you do, regardless of whether I choose to see things from multiple points of view or not.Of course, you do...thanks to millions of normal, everyday guys that have given their very lives for that right..QuoteThere is no perfect place to live anywhere, and whereever you live, after living there awhile you start to have similar views on things as the other people around you do, because that is where you life is.My home is where I chose to leave my heart, not because others feel as my heart feels, but because I will always love my land, no matter where I may reside at the moment. But your quote smells of a Herding instinct. I will never have similar views as others simply because they believe in something...I have a mind..With that being said - I shall retire from this thread...thank you for the "other" point of view...TripleF"If you have something vital and it's sincere, you can communicate." Butch Trucks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhino 0 #42 February 25, 2002 This is not revenge. This is preventive maintenance. We have to prevent this from happening again. And in the long run other piss ant groups of idiots will think twice before screwing with anyone.. We will get them. Uncle Sam is WAY TO PISSED OFF to let them get away with this again. Uncle Sam has my vote to swing any size stick he needs to to protect my children and yours. We have these freedoms only because of the people that served in the military. Without them you would not have the rights you have today. They gave their lives so that people could stay here and be ungratefull and take their freedom for granted. They died so you can have that right.I am retiring from this thread also.. I have said my short but accurate piece..RhinoBlue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StevieBoy 0 #43 February 26, 2002 Fantistic post jtI read some intresting threads, opened my mind a little to some people's views, all justified in thier own right.One quote springs to mind that "I" think is apt to to what is being said here , imho The speech was made 29 October 1941 to the boys at Churchill's old public school, Harrow - "NEVER GIVE IN""Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.'' nuff said"Skydiving's a source, it'll change your life, swear to God" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GrumpySmurf 0 #44 February 26, 2002 Funny.This is very similar to a discussion that I had with a Muslim friend and a Jewish friend (at seperate times) on St.Patty's day last year (funny how alchohol can bring up these kinds of 'taboo' subjects )- each thought that the others people were a bunch of animals (they put it in a much more vulgar fashion) bent on their destruction. Look where it has gotten them?So destroy Al Quida, the Hezbolah, Hamas, etc, etc - until you correct the under lying problem, someone will always take thier place. The question begs asking, why do these people hate us so much that they are willing to commit suicide to kill us? Is it really a small minority of ex-Afgan fighters with no immediate enemy, so they went hunting for one? Or is it an underlying concern of an entire society about a culture (ours) that they know little about and that they feel is threatening them and thier way of life? The radical groups do need to be taken care of, but the situation and opinions that allows them to garner further support also needs to be addressed, in a way that doesn't rattle the wasps nest even more.On a side note, it was heartening to hear today that some in the Israeli government are considering the Saudi peace proposal. Maybe hope is not just a denial of reality, after all? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Billy 0 #45 February 26, 2002 I noticed some of these folks on the news tonight,, I was wondering why if they're so proud of their fuckin actions why they hide there face under a friggin blanket,, Hay thanks to all you vets,,, including my Dad, Gran Dad,, and friends,,, glad I never had ta live through that shit,,, an I have the right now ta say fuck you ta anyone,, but not you' all,, you're cool,,,,Don't read this shit down here,, it's nonsense,,, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jtval 0 #46 February 26, 2002 good pionts made by everyone. there is probably at least one thing in every post i agree with. some posts spoke my mind for me but those that didnt made thier view pionts understandable and even agreeable. thanks for not flaming here! its pretty cool that you all made your pionts and tolerated those that didnt see exactly on your level!have fun GO SKYDIVE!!! getting high is fun, but coming down is the best partJT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kmcguffee 0 #47 February 26, 2002 Quote"Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.'' Great man, great quote. Led his country through something similar, although larger scale in some ways, to what the US is going through now. Former Mayor Giuliani said he used Churchhill as a rolemodel during the weeks after 9/11. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jtval 0 #48 February 26, 2002 Im from NY and guiliani has done some amazing shit with that place. i say rudy for pres!getting high is fun, but coming down is the best partJT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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rhino 0 #36 February 25, 2002 These animals ARE NOT POW's. Their is a distinct difference. They are detainees.. Or lower for that matter. We don't want them to surrender and claim NOT TO BE TALIBAN any more.. We want them dead. Where they won't surface and kill your children any longer. This is not the same kind of war as Iraq.. No comparison.. These people are sick and the only way to cure their illness is to kill them.. There are no other options.RhinoBlue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #37 February 25, 2002 "their treatment will someday be used as a standard when someone decides how to treat a member of _our_ armed forces who is captured."That certainly hasn't been the record so far....."I only have a C license, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #38 February 25, 2002 Well, not to get clinical or anything but the Taliban are POWs. The members of al Quaeda are 'detainees'. There are alot of differences between this war and the Persian Gulf but how we treat POWs or detainees is not one of them. The only reason al Quaeda members are not considered POWs is because they are not members of the armed forces of a state which is a requirement, under the Geneva Convention, to be statused a POW. We know whether or not they belong to the Taliban. Some lawyers will cry foul, as always, but the military knows. I would like nothing more than to 'kill them all' but in the long run this will cause us more trouble and sacrifice more American lives than that little bit of revenge is worth. The solution to this problem has many components: military, diplomatic, and economic and I'm not even going to pretend to know the answer, but it is more complex than 'kill them all'. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JDBoston 0 #39 February 25, 2002 That's all well and good as long as ya got the right people. Unfortunately when you apply that attitude in a less discriminating manner, you end up giving more support to the people you're trying to "exterminate." People who didn't support them before start thinking, hey, maybe those guys are right and the United States IS bad, etc. The Taliban isn't really the main problem. People in Afghanistan switch sides in wars like it's their job and they always have. The Taliban are by and large pretty ignorant of everything that's happened in the rest of the world in the last 1000 years or so and would never be a threat to anyone outside their immediate reach. The terrorists, on the other hand (mainly non-Afghans, in fact), are dangerous precisely BECAUSE they are hard to distinguish from harmless law-abiding citizens... and that's where things get tricky... and that's why I think we need to spend a lot more money on intelligence ops than on bombing people, unless we know for damn sure the bomb's going to get the right guys, which is tough to do.Joe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bill2 0 #40 February 25, 2002 I was in the Army for 9 years and just got out a year ago. One thing that really surprises me is how little the civilian community understands what the military does and how much their families sacrifice. ____________________________________you're right, the vast majority of the country has no idea what the military is like, how hard they work, the stresses they undergo. most of that is due to how, percentage wise, very few people go into the military these days. with the draft gone, most people don't even personally know someone/related to someone who was or is in the military. in years past, most families had someone who had served or was serving. Congress is now comprised of about 95% non veterans. this doesn't bode well for making astute votes on things that affect the military, and in turn affect us.another comment on the "yes but they're humans too". I agree they are humans, but I do think that in cases like this, just as we were in WWII, we should be absolutely ruthless in going after them and killing them. For all the bombing in Afghanistan, the US has killed very few civilians. And yes, I know that the people who were killed don't care about the accuracy of the bombs. I think Bush's comment about the axis of evil was correct, all three countries do abuse and murder their citizens, and the world would be a better place if all three goverments got taken out. Not the people, but the governments. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freefallfreak 0 #41 February 25, 2002 QuoteNote to skybytch: We are not having a flame war, we are having a discussion.Ditto...lol...Quote I don't know all the differences either, but no one is born evil. And you can't just simplify the workings of the world down to a paragraph or two. It doesn't work that way. Nothing is that simple. Ignorance or willing ignorance of something is not an excuse to take irrational actions.True, no one is born evil...they are taught by their families and peers. And I see no irrational actions being taken except for the irrational acts perpetrated on Sept 11. The US is simply reacting to these actions.Quotethey believe that it is either right, or that it will benefit them.Were the actions perpetrated on Sept. 11 right -- or did it benefit the aggressors?? I think not.QuoteBut for all the strong and noble feelings you have for America, those people who hijacked the planes on September 11, 2001 had just as strong or stronger feelings that what they were doing was pure and right as well.It is my understanding that the hi-jackers were not informed of the plans to crash the planes, with the exception of the pilot of each plane. This could be mis-information on my part, tho.Quote I think the only way that I would fight is as a last resort. I believe violence should be used only as a last resort.Which leads me to my point - if you don't believe in something, why stick with that something? Why not move on?? The "Herding Theory"??QuoteBut I have as much right to be here as you do, regardless of whether I choose to see things from multiple points of view or not.Of course, you do...thanks to millions of normal, everyday guys that have given their very lives for that right..QuoteThere is no perfect place to live anywhere, and whereever you live, after living there awhile you start to have similar views on things as the other people around you do, because that is where you life is.My home is where I chose to leave my heart, not because others feel as my heart feels, but because I will always love my land, no matter where I may reside at the moment. But your quote smells of a Herding instinct. I will never have similar views as others simply because they believe in something...I have a mind..With that being said - I shall retire from this thread...thank you for the "other" point of view...TripleF"If you have something vital and it's sincere, you can communicate." Butch Trucks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #42 February 25, 2002 This is not revenge. This is preventive maintenance. We have to prevent this from happening again. And in the long run other piss ant groups of idiots will think twice before screwing with anyone.. We will get them. Uncle Sam is WAY TO PISSED OFF to let them get away with this again. Uncle Sam has my vote to swing any size stick he needs to to protect my children and yours. We have these freedoms only because of the people that served in the military. Without them you would not have the rights you have today. They gave their lives so that people could stay here and be ungratefull and take their freedom for granted. They died so you can have that right.I am retiring from this thread also.. I have said my short but accurate piece..RhinoBlue Skies and Smooth Rides!! http://www.aahit.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StevieBoy 0 #43 February 26, 2002 Fantistic post jtI read some intresting threads, opened my mind a little to some people's views, all justified in thier own right.One quote springs to mind that "I" think is apt to to what is being said here , imho The speech was made 29 October 1941 to the boys at Churchill's old public school, Harrow - "NEVER GIVE IN""Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.'' nuff said"Skydiving's a source, it'll change your life, swear to God" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #44 February 26, 2002 Funny.This is very similar to a discussion that I had with a Muslim friend and a Jewish friend (at seperate times) on St.Patty's day last year (funny how alchohol can bring up these kinds of 'taboo' subjects )- each thought that the others people were a bunch of animals (they put it in a much more vulgar fashion) bent on their destruction. Look where it has gotten them?So destroy Al Quida, the Hezbolah, Hamas, etc, etc - until you correct the under lying problem, someone will always take thier place. The question begs asking, why do these people hate us so much that they are willing to commit suicide to kill us? Is it really a small minority of ex-Afgan fighters with no immediate enemy, so they went hunting for one? Or is it an underlying concern of an entire society about a culture (ours) that they know little about and that they feel is threatening them and thier way of life? The radical groups do need to be taken care of, but the situation and opinions that allows them to garner further support also needs to be addressed, in a way that doesn't rattle the wasps nest even more.On a side note, it was heartening to hear today that some in the Israeli government are considering the Saudi peace proposal. Maybe hope is not just a denial of reality, after all? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Billy 0 #45 February 26, 2002 I noticed some of these folks on the news tonight,, I was wondering why if they're so proud of their fuckin actions why they hide there face under a friggin blanket,, Hay thanks to all you vets,,, including my Dad, Gran Dad,, and friends,,, glad I never had ta live through that shit,,, an I have the right now ta say fuck you ta anyone,, but not you' all,, you're cool,,,,Don't read this shit down here,, it's nonsense,,, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #46 February 26, 2002 good pionts made by everyone. there is probably at least one thing in every post i agree with. some posts spoke my mind for me but those that didnt made thier view pionts understandable and even agreeable. thanks for not flaming here! its pretty cool that you all made your pionts and tolerated those that didnt see exactly on your level!have fun GO SKYDIVE!!! getting high is fun, but coming down is the best partJT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #47 February 26, 2002 Quote"Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.'' Great man, great quote. Led his country through something similar, although larger scale in some ways, to what the US is going through now. Former Mayor Giuliani said he used Churchhill as a rolemodel during the weeks after 9/11. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #48 February 26, 2002 Im from NY and guiliani has done some amazing shit with that place. i say rudy for pres!getting high is fun, but coming down is the best partJT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
