MarkM 0 #51 February 25, 2002 QuoteRemember -- the foreign policy of the American government -- screwing around in Afghanistan 20 years ago, not to help the people who live there, but rather to manipulate the region solely for the benefit of American interests, had lot's to do with how things have ended up.I love how everyone outside of America is an expert on the American constitution/foreign policy/space program/bathing habits/etc/etc.We drink, we smoke, we own guns, we don't give a crap about our leaders, we love cars, we have low taxes, our women shave their armpits, we screw with other countries to fight against communism and we'll give the shirt off our backs to anybody that asks.Don't like it? Fucking deal with it. You don't see us bitching about Quebec. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JDBoston 0 #52 February 25, 2002 Let's not shoot the messenger. There is some truth to that statement. And the more countries we allow to remain unstable, the more places terrorism can flourish. We don't need to walk around whipping ourselves, but it's narrow-minded and dangerous to think that the US can do no wrong and everyone else is just bitching about us cause they're jealous. Joe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #53 February 25, 2002 The statement does leave out the fact that there was another large country (USSR) involved in Afghanistan that didn't do anything either. If you go back a few years before that you can even throw some blame on another large country (UK). We shouldn't have to apologize for looking after our interests. That is what countries do, every country, not just the US. There is no 'excuse' for terrorism. The 'blame America first' crowd is getting old. It is time for people to start taking responsibility for their own actions. It is actually kind of egotistical to think that the US is responsible for all of the problems in the Middle East. We're good but not that good. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #54 February 25, 2002 QuoteThe 'blame America first' crowd is getting old.It goes way beyond that. Try having an intelligent conversation with a European about America and guns. Won't happen. Not only that, but most are damn pleased to point out how "horrible" a country we are for having so many firearms in our households.Do you see American's getting all up in arms about the British government's ban on guns? How about the restrictions in Germany on certain forms of speech you'd be constitutionally protected for in America? Never comes up because we don't give a damn.If you don't like the laws or attitude, don't live there.Yeah, we screw around in the affairs of other countries. We have a foreign policy that forces us to interfere with the spread of communism. We supported the Afghan freedom fighters against the USSR back in the 80's and it blew up on us.We're supporting the Columbian government right now against 2 socialist factions there and that might blow up on us.We fought against it in Vietnam and it blew up on us. Anyone remember Korea? Why'd we get involved there? It sure as hell wasn't for oil, maybe it was the cuisine. Cuba? Maybe we wanted to corner the cigar market.It's pretty f'ing easy to never have problems when you're sitting on your butt doing nada. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Iflyme 0 #55 February 26, 2002 QuoteTry having an intelligent conversation with a European about America and guns. Won't happenWell, Mark, you opened up this can of worms, not me... but tell me this -- if you are at war with Afghanistan because someone killed 3000 people in your country, what the hell do you say about the 40,000 Americans who were killed by other Americans with guns last year??? Huh?????? And what about that little 6 year old girl who was shot dead in Detroit today??? What do you tell her family? Do you really believe that people who support strong gun controls can't maintain an intelligent conversation? Is it an your perspective that only you can be right about this issue??? If you had a different approach to gun control, maybe you wouldn't have 40,000 Americans dieing each year at the hand of other Americans. Now save your flames everyone, because I know lots of people in the US love their guns and carry them everywhere and sleep with them. It just seems crazy to declare a war over the murder of 3000 people when ten times that number are murdered by your own citizens.Nothing personal... just my observations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skymedic 0 #56 February 26, 2002 hmmm.....I gotta think......marcBSBD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cloud9 0 #57 February 26, 2002 Quote what the hell do you say about the 40,000 Americans who were killed by other Americans with guns last year BULL SHIT! you listen to the likes of hand gun control, way inflated figure! Quote And what about that little 6 year old girl who was shot dead in Detroit today??? What do you tell her family? I'd tell them that we're going to catch the murdering bastard and execute him. But of course you'd tell them that would be a horrible thing to do, maybe we should just yell at him a little, give him a time out to think about what he's done.The beauty of a free society is you don't have to need something it doesn't have to be a neccessity. If your law abiding and you want something you can have it. Even guns. Now for those of you that don't live in a free society. Its because you let your government take your guns!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #58 February 26, 2002 I'm not sure if you were aware of this or not, but gun violence in America was lower in 2001 then it was from 1903 till then.Just a little FYI. Now, kitty porn has risen to an all time high, please, please, please, write your Congressman(women) to address the outright abuse of all those poor cats..."And who are you?""I'm...Batman..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skymedic 0 #59 February 26, 2002 Ya know......since when did that poor gun get a mind to pick it up and kill someone.....we need to take care of the source of the problem......not the instrument in the problem....gun control does not work...when I worked in NZ where they dont have guns......I picked people off the street who got beat to death with bats...Now i have seen far more people dead on the street from base ball bat injuries than GSW's....now lets ban them fricken bats....I dont play baseball/softball...so fuck em...lets get rid of em....marcBSBD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites scottbre 0 #60 February 26, 2002 QuoteIt is actually kind of egotistical to think that the US is responsible for all of the problems in the Middle East.It is just as egotistical to think that the US isn't responsible for any of the problems in the Middle East."Let the rabbits wear glasses. . . " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #61 February 26, 2002 QuoteIt is just as egotistical to think that the US isn't responsible for any of the problems in the Middle East.Not really, since the problems in the Middle East date back thousands of years. Also, with something like 8 major religions converging in the same little space, shit is going to fly..."And who are you?""I'm...Batman..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bbarnhouse 0 #62 February 26, 2002 Hummmmm I might be wrong here but......I think that flying planes into buildings is a bit different than the hand gun issue. Furthermore, the violence rate in 2001 was the lowest it has been since the early 1900's. There is no doubt that we have a real crime problem here in the U.S. no one disputes that. But I find it more than just a little insulting to categorize the death of over 3,000 of our American citizens as "merely inflaming". All of us were touched in some way by this horrific event. perhaps if you don't live here, you may not understand how we feel. Again I would say that I am proud to be an American where at least I know I'm free.Freedom of speech,press, religion, the right to bear arms, to choose, with liberty and justice for all......Oh sheesh not the cathouse...............LOLIt only takes a little pixie dust...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skymedic 0 #63 February 26, 2002 This is one place where we are guilty in my opinon...the middle east is somewhere we have made far too many enemies due to our relationship with israel being so chummy as it is....marcBSBD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #64 February 26, 2002 It goes back before that though, we're chummy with Isreal because of a guilty feeling we have due to our belatedness in dealing with Hitler and the millions of Jews he was responsible for killing."And who are you?""I'm...Batman..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skymedic 0 #65 February 26, 2002 Exactly...you are right that this goes way back....but not there hatred towards us...they hated the israelis...and the "crusaders"....well we go over there with big guns beating up iraq....we look like the new crusadersmarcBSBD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #66 February 26, 2002 Quotewell we go over there with big guns beating up iraq....we look like the new crusadersThat depends on how you look at it, some of the atrocities that the Iraqi government commits makes Machavelli look like a saint..."And who are you?""I'm...Batman..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skymedic 0 #67 February 26, 2002 Very true my friend...very very true...marcBSBD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Iflyme 0 #68 February 26, 2002 Quote All of us were touched in some way by this horrific event. perhaps if you don't live here, you may not understand how we feel. That's not true at all. I was on the phone with my good friend who used to work in the financial district, and had spent alot of time in those buildings as soon as I got home from work... in fact his sister had an appointment in one of the buildings at 2pm that afternoon. As a tv news producer, I spent countless hours over the next days and weeks making sure my viewers were informed about what had happened. I wept when my country held 3 minutes of silence for the victims of that attack. Perhaps because it all happened in a very brief period of time it had more impact on us... but the fact is Americans used guns to kill 10 times as many Americans last year as terrorists did. That's bad. And yes Marc, people can use any weapon to committ a crime -- why, there are people here on these forums who brag they can kill a man with their bare hands in seconds! But a gun is a weapon designed for one purpose, and one purpose only -- killing. Baseball bats are made for baseball. Anyway, enough said. Terrorists, murders, they are all scum of the earth.QuoteBut of course you'd tell them that would be a horrible thing to do, Yes, cloud9, that's right. I don't believe in murder. By anyone.QuoteAgain I would say that I am proud to be an American Me too.. except substitute "Canadian" for American... and we're better at hockey! Men's and women[trophy]! nya nya, na nya nya! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bbarnhouse 0 #69 February 26, 2002 notice I did say "perhaps.......and may" therfore not saying that one does or does not.Agreed you are better at hockey this time, and more shall be revealed.........Did you know that Jaimaca has a bobsled team? LMAOIt only takes a little pixie dust...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Iflyme 0 #70 February 26, 2002 QuoteDid you know that Jaimaca has a bobsled team? LMAOYa! I saw that in the movie -- John Candy is their coach! Wait a sec ... he's Canadian, too! Or was... oh, how I miss him... I liked "Eddie the Eagle" ... remember him? British Ski Jumper. Lotsa guts, no talent ... but he represented his country, and did his best! Kinda like Screamer going head down! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Billy 0 #71 February 26, 2002 I read this thread an think,, good point,, then the next and it's,, hmm,, good point,, then the next and again,, good point,, so another 2 cents,, ya'll are titilating conversationalists,, as far as the killings in America,, think many are drug related as are most other crimes,, an maybe it's about time we revamped our drug laws,, starting with weed,, it's not like prohibition worked either,, Like what I've read a the Senator(?) from New Mexico and his thoughts on the issue and how it relates to the courts and jails and on down the road,, ya the middle east is a friggin mess,, and I don't believe in a God that thinks killing is the way to solve anything especially in his name,, whatever ya call him,, Ok maybe that was a nickles worth.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jtval 0 #72 February 26, 2002 QuoteNow save your flames everyone, because I know lots of people in the US love their guns and carry them everywhere and sleep with them. It just seems crazy to declare a war over the murder of 3000 people when ten times that number are murdered by your own citizens.no flaming here but what ever the actual number is the fact is that is not one group attacking another, in the situation you presented. it is one fukt up citizen killing another. i do believe that the laws should be stronger against those who commit serious crimes though. it almost seems that selling a bag of weed will send you to the clink for years but murder with good behavior will get you months! fujkn crazy if you ask me! getting high is fun, but coming down is the best partJT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #73 February 26, 2002 Christ, not again...gun debates...we could save a lot of time if instead of drudging through it again, everyone just reads the other very long threads dealing with it."And who are you?""I'm...Batman..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jtval 0 #74 February 26, 2002 haha dave, i know whatcha mean!getting high is fun, but coming down is the best partJT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kmcguffee 0 #75 February 26, 2002 Quotewhat the hell do you say about the 40,000 Americans who were killed by other Americans with guns last year??? I really don't get your point here. Are you trying to say that because we had 40k murders in the US last year we shouldn't do anything about a group of terrorists flying planes into three buildings and killing 3k people? Should we outlaw all guns because of these murders? Should we outlaw all planes because of the terrorist attacks? I don't get the connection.It looks like to me some on this thread are advocating that the US should take complete responsibility for a group of terrorists killing 3,000 innocent US civilians. Maybe we should tell Al Quaeda and the countries that support them "Ahhh, don't worry about it. We've done some things that made you mad in the past so it's alright". Then we should restructure our foreign policy so as not to piss anybody off ever again. Am I getting close?Using this logic, let's go a little further. Since most of the hard drugs used in the US are from foreign countries and most of the murders in the US are drug related, you still with me?, isn't it actually the foreign countries fault that we had 40k murders last year. Shouldn't this allow us to form up some terrorist groups and kill at least a couple thousand innocent civilians in retaliation? I'm hearing alot of people criticizing the way the US is conducting this war but I'm not hearing many alternative courses of action. I'm all ears. Let's hear them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
MarkM 0 #54 February 25, 2002 QuoteThe 'blame America first' crowd is getting old.It goes way beyond that. Try having an intelligent conversation with a European about America and guns. Won't happen. Not only that, but most are damn pleased to point out how "horrible" a country we are for having so many firearms in our households.Do you see American's getting all up in arms about the British government's ban on guns? How about the restrictions in Germany on certain forms of speech you'd be constitutionally protected for in America? Never comes up because we don't give a damn.If you don't like the laws or attitude, don't live there.Yeah, we screw around in the affairs of other countries. We have a foreign policy that forces us to interfere with the spread of communism. We supported the Afghan freedom fighters against the USSR back in the 80's and it blew up on us.We're supporting the Columbian government right now against 2 socialist factions there and that might blow up on us.We fought against it in Vietnam and it blew up on us. Anyone remember Korea? Why'd we get involved there? It sure as hell wasn't for oil, maybe it was the cuisine. Cuba? Maybe we wanted to corner the cigar market.It's pretty f'ing easy to never have problems when you're sitting on your butt doing nada. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #55 February 26, 2002 QuoteTry having an intelligent conversation with a European about America and guns. Won't happenWell, Mark, you opened up this can of worms, not me... but tell me this -- if you are at war with Afghanistan because someone killed 3000 people in your country, what the hell do you say about the 40,000 Americans who were killed by other Americans with guns last year??? Huh?????? And what about that little 6 year old girl who was shot dead in Detroit today??? What do you tell her family? Do you really believe that people who support strong gun controls can't maintain an intelligent conversation? Is it an your perspective that only you can be right about this issue??? If you had a different approach to gun control, maybe you wouldn't have 40,000 Americans dieing each year at the hand of other Americans. Now save your flames everyone, because I know lots of people in the US love their guns and carry them everywhere and sleep with them. It just seems crazy to declare a war over the murder of 3000 people when ten times that number are murdered by your own citizens.Nothing personal... just my observations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #56 February 26, 2002 hmmm.....I gotta think......marcBSBD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloud9 0 #57 February 26, 2002 Quote what the hell do you say about the 40,000 Americans who were killed by other Americans with guns last year BULL SHIT! you listen to the likes of hand gun control, way inflated figure! Quote And what about that little 6 year old girl who was shot dead in Detroit today??? What do you tell her family? I'd tell them that we're going to catch the murdering bastard and execute him. But of course you'd tell them that would be a horrible thing to do, maybe we should just yell at him a little, give him a time out to think about what he's done.The beauty of a free society is you don't have to need something it doesn't have to be a neccessity. If your law abiding and you want something you can have it. Even guns. Now for those of you that don't live in a free society. Its because you let your government take your guns!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #58 February 26, 2002 I'm not sure if you were aware of this or not, but gun violence in America was lower in 2001 then it was from 1903 till then.Just a little FYI. Now, kitty porn has risen to an all time high, please, please, please, write your Congressman(women) to address the outright abuse of all those poor cats..."And who are you?""I'm...Batman..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #59 February 26, 2002 Ya know......since when did that poor gun get a mind to pick it up and kill someone.....we need to take care of the source of the problem......not the instrument in the problem....gun control does not work...when I worked in NZ where they dont have guns......I picked people off the street who got beat to death with bats...Now i have seen far more people dead on the street from base ball bat injuries than GSW's....now lets ban them fricken bats....I dont play baseball/softball...so fuck em...lets get rid of em....marcBSBD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottbre 0 #60 February 26, 2002 QuoteIt is actually kind of egotistical to think that the US is responsible for all of the problems in the Middle East.It is just as egotistical to think that the US isn't responsible for any of the problems in the Middle East."Let the rabbits wear glasses. . . " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #61 February 26, 2002 QuoteIt is just as egotistical to think that the US isn't responsible for any of the problems in the Middle East.Not really, since the problems in the Middle East date back thousands of years. Also, with something like 8 major religions converging in the same little space, shit is going to fly..."And who are you?""I'm...Batman..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #62 February 26, 2002 Hummmmm I might be wrong here but......I think that flying planes into buildings is a bit different than the hand gun issue. Furthermore, the violence rate in 2001 was the lowest it has been since the early 1900's. There is no doubt that we have a real crime problem here in the U.S. no one disputes that. But I find it more than just a little insulting to categorize the death of over 3,000 of our American citizens as "merely inflaming". All of us were touched in some way by this horrific event. perhaps if you don't live here, you may not understand how we feel. Again I would say that I am proud to be an American where at least I know I'm free.Freedom of speech,press, religion, the right to bear arms, to choose, with liberty and justice for all......Oh sheesh not the cathouse...............LOLIt only takes a little pixie dust...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #63 February 26, 2002 This is one place where we are guilty in my opinon...the middle east is somewhere we have made far too many enemies due to our relationship with israel being so chummy as it is....marcBSBD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #64 February 26, 2002 It goes back before that though, we're chummy with Isreal because of a guilty feeling we have due to our belatedness in dealing with Hitler and the millions of Jews he was responsible for killing."And who are you?""I'm...Batman..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #65 February 26, 2002 Exactly...you are right that this goes way back....but not there hatred towards us...they hated the israelis...and the "crusaders"....well we go over there with big guns beating up iraq....we look like the new crusadersmarcBSBD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #66 February 26, 2002 Quotewell we go over there with big guns beating up iraq....we look like the new crusadersThat depends on how you look at it, some of the atrocities that the Iraqi government commits makes Machavelli look like a saint..."And who are you?""I'm...Batman..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #67 February 26, 2002 Very true my friend...very very true...marcBSBD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #68 February 26, 2002 Quote All of us were touched in some way by this horrific event. perhaps if you don't live here, you may not understand how we feel. That's not true at all. I was on the phone with my good friend who used to work in the financial district, and had spent alot of time in those buildings as soon as I got home from work... in fact his sister had an appointment in one of the buildings at 2pm that afternoon. As a tv news producer, I spent countless hours over the next days and weeks making sure my viewers were informed about what had happened. I wept when my country held 3 minutes of silence for the victims of that attack. Perhaps because it all happened in a very brief period of time it had more impact on us... but the fact is Americans used guns to kill 10 times as many Americans last year as terrorists did. That's bad. And yes Marc, people can use any weapon to committ a crime -- why, there are people here on these forums who brag they can kill a man with their bare hands in seconds! But a gun is a weapon designed for one purpose, and one purpose only -- killing. Baseball bats are made for baseball. Anyway, enough said. Terrorists, murders, they are all scum of the earth.QuoteBut of course you'd tell them that would be a horrible thing to do, Yes, cloud9, that's right. I don't believe in murder. By anyone.QuoteAgain I would say that I am proud to be an American Me too.. except substitute "Canadian" for American... and we're better at hockey! Men's and women[trophy]! nya nya, na nya nya! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #69 February 26, 2002 notice I did say "perhaps.......and may" therfore not saying that one does or does not.Agreed you are better at hockey this time, and more shall be revealed.........Did you know that Jaimaca has a bobsled team? LMAOIt only takes a little pixie dust...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #70 February 26, 2002 QuoteDid you know that Jaimaca has a bobsled team? LMAOYa! I saw that in the movie -- John Candy is their coach! Wait a sec ... he's Canadian, too! Or was... oh, how I miss him... I liked "Eddie the Eagle" ... remember him? British Ski Jumper. Lotsa guts, no talent ... but he represented his country, and did his best! Kinda like Screamer going head down! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Billy 0 #71 February 26, 2002 I read this thread an think,, good point,, then the next and it's,, hmm,, good point,, then the next and again,, good point,, so another 2 cents,, ya'll are titilating conversationalists,, as far as the killings in America,, think many are drug related as are most other crimes,, an maybe it's about time we revamped our drug laws,, starting with weed,, it's not like prohibition worked either,, Like what I've read a the Senator(?) from New Mexico and his thoughts on the issue and how it relates to the courts and jails and on down the road,, ya the middle east is a friggin mess,, and I don't believe in a God that thinks killing is the way to solve anything especially in his name,, whatever ya call him,, Ok maybe that was a nickles worth.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #72 February 26, 2002 QuoteNow save your flames everyone, because I know lots of people in the US love their guns and carry them everywhere and sleep with them. It just seems crazy to declare a war over the murder of 3000 people when ten times that number are murdered by your own citizens.no flaming here but what ever the actual number is the fact is that is not one group attacking another, in the situation you presented. it is one fukt up citizen killing another. i do believe that the laws should be stronger against those who commit serious crimes though. it almost seems that selling a bag of weed will send you to the clink for years but murder with good behavior will get you months! fujkn crazy if you ask me! getting high is fun, but coming down is the best partJT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #73 February 26, 2002 Christ, not again...gun debates...we could save a lot of time if instead of drudging through it again, everyone just reads the other very long threads dealing with it."And who are you?""I'm...Batman..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #74 February 26, 2002 haha dave, i know whatcha mean!getting high is fun, but coming down is the best partJT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #75 February 26, 2002 Quotewhat the hell do you say about the 40,000 Americans who were killed by other Americans with guns last year??? I really don't get your point here. Are you trying to say that because we had 40k murders in the US last year we shouldn't do anything about a group of terrorists flying planes into three buildings and killing 3k people? Should we outlaw all guns because of these murders? Should we outlaw all planes because of the terrorist attacks? I don't get the connection.It looks like to me some on this thread are advocating that the US should take complete responsibility for a group of terrorists killing 3,000 innocent US civilians. Maybe we should tell Al Quaeda and the countries that support them "Ahhh, don't worry about it. We've done some things that made you mad in the past so it's alright". Then we should restructure our foreign policy so as not to piss anybody off ever again. Am I getting close?Using this logic, let's go a little further. Since most of the hard drugs used in the US are from foreign countries and most of the murders in the US are drug related, you still with me?, isn't it actually the foreign countries fault that we had 40k murders last year. Shouldn't this allow us to form up some terrorist groups and kill at least a couple thousand innocent civilians in retaliation? I'm hearing alot of people criticizing the way the US is conducting this war but I'm not hearing many alternative courses of action. I'm all ears. Let's hear them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
