Sisyphus

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Andyman, I disagree on the Rwanda thing, they were actually practising genocide far more efficiently than Hilter, and hardly anybody gave a flying fuck. Mebbe cos it was a civil war and outside the authority of the UN (not sure about this point tho).
The WTC was still an atrocity though and I don't think you can compare a civil war with an act of outright international aggression.
Cya
D

[skyhawk 2]

well being from australia - a close friend of america - i can honestly say we dont help you because you are the leader, we do it because we are friends, ok take the schoolyard scene, someone hurt you we come and help not because you are in charge but your our friend even though you are bigger etc at the same time we dont expect anything back, we joined the us in vietnam, the gulf, afganistan etc etc not because the US said so but because we felt that we should help out a friend. we always have and most likly always will help but as long as the US sees that is out of friendship not duty, cause you said so etc.
also id like to bring up east timor, the milita (mind you they where also being sponsored by the indonesian government) where killing and controling this country WE went in with our soldiers and liberated the people and the US only sent a couple people to work in darwin in like the information fields or something, mind you the deployment did (still is) drawing a huge amount of money and at the height of it our defence was stretched very thing
i guess im just tired of a.the US people assuming they are the leaders, because the world picked them and always do good in the world without any support and b. ppl in other countrys pulling down the good that they do do to make themselves feel better.
also just remember every single "good dead" the US does is politicly driven it has nothing to do with what is best for the world so dont fool yourself that it is.
however the US isnt alone in this we went to east timor for a variety of reason most good but a minor one was politcal guilt the government new that indonesia was going to invade in the 70s but did nothing. moral ALL decisions made by countrys are one sided to get the best for them regardless off the implications for others
also i saw someone mention that someone had never been out of the country would i also be right in Bush has never been further overseas than a couple of hours across the mexican border , hmm thats could the "leader of the world" has never even experienced anywhere else.
Opinions are like a-holes everyone has one, the only one that does you any good is yours and all that comes out is shit

[skyhawk 2]

also with east timor there where other countrys helping we where just the major players (just thought id add that cause there are so many "conflicts" where other countrys are giving alot of ppl money etc but cause they arnt the major player nobody says anything)
Opinions are like a-holes everyone has one, the only one that does you any good is yours and all that comes out is shit

[billvon 3,114]

>And here I have to disagree with you. Pacifism works fine in theory, until you are
> up against someone with no moral standards or inhibitions. Bin Laden/Hitler,
> people who hate a particular group of people, simply will not stop unless force is
> used against them.
And do you think Al Quaeda has been stopped by our all-out show of military force? I sure hope so, but I tend to doubt it. It didn't work last time in Afghanistan, when the US set up the Taliban and financed the Al-Quaeda network. It has never worked in the Middle East. It didn't work in Viet Nam.
>Britain cared about world opinion; Ghandi made them look bad. But that only
> matters if you care about world opinion. if like Hitler, you plan on running the
> whole planet, you won't give a damn about what other people think, or if they
> suffer, or even if they live.
Here's the fatal flaw in your argument - Hitler has no more power, inherently, than the crazy guy on the corner of the street who shouts about the second coming. His power comes from people, the very people who you claim he doesn't give a damn about.
The reason lunatics succeed is that they convince their followers they are sane. Hitler's greatness was not in his evil - there have been plenty of more evil people trying to do far more evil things. His greatness came from his charisma, his political skills, and his perfect timing.
Often, trying to blow such people to bits does no more than convince the people who obey the evil leader that he is right - the US _is_ bent on murder, and they must stand loyally with the one force of good they know.
And that's why pacifism works. It's easy to train an army to go and shoot up another army. It's much harder to train them to kill civilians, unless they have a much stronger belief - and such a belief is only maintainable if the other side is really justifiably going after them. In Germany, it was the crippling post-WWI sanctions by the victors. For Arabs, it is the constant killing of their kind by US built and purchased gunships. Bin Laden didn't need to lie about the US to recruit his followers - he just had to turn on CNN.
I believe that people are basically decent, and even the most hardened soldier or most fanatical terrorist is going to have trouble doing something that they know is wrong - and to 99% of the population, killing people who do not fight back is wrong.
>Pacifists, for all their courage in doing what they do, ultimately still need
>someone who will stand up for them. If not, they will be slaughtered. Just ask
>descendents/relatives of all the Jews who went to the ovens in such a
>cooperative fashion in WWII.
I agree that pacifism doesn't work all the time. However, we should be glad that it does work a lot of the time, or we'd have already had a few race wars here in the US. Force should be an absolute last resort, instead of the international standard of diplomacy it seems to have become.
-bill von

[Engovatov 0]

>And do you think Al Quaeda has been stopped by our all-out show of military force?
To quote one guy who taught russian spetsnaz in Afganistan: "the only effective weapon here is money"
U.S. is doing well in Afganistan, as it has a carrot for North Alliance ($200 a month and a parka for grunts, nice handouts for the big wigs), while nobody is willing to bankroll Taliban now (like U.S. did when Stingers atrted arriving in 1983.. U.S taxpayers like $3B on this fuckers you fight now..)
Suicide bombing is so popular in part for $25 from Suddam for families.
If U.S. will pay big bucks for those who give them up, and bankroll job creation n West Bank - it may have some effect.
Will be cheaper in the end..

[scottbre 0]

Quote

At first I thought this was going to be about some sort of VD.

Boy, that is soo clever. Never thought that would get brought up.
What have we learned kids? Never overestimate...
"Yea, I didn't think we'd actually be turning any points..." ~ Goat #4

[ChromeBoy 0]

Quote

Boy, that is soo clever. Never thought that would get brought up.
What have we learned kids? Never overestimate...

I am so sorry I hit on such a nerve Scott. What is it the Clap? Crabs? I hear most of it is curable. Start having some sort of integrity before you go that direction though!

[AggieDave 6]

Chill Winston!
Guys, relax, ok? Lets get back to our debate/discussion, its going good so far and is fairly interesting. A human cannonball, I rise above it all
Up higher then a trapieze, I can fly

[ChromeBoy 0]

Dave...I do not know if Scottbre was serious or kidding but I will go in any direction! I am not paid as a stand up comic on the weekends for nothing!

[skreamer 1]

You are right bill, the US needs to stop the terrorism, however I think sending tanks into a refugee camp is terrorism too. What Sharon is doing is wrong, but remember he is military and this is the only way he knows how to deal with problems. I don't think he is a suitable diplomat or leader for Israel (IMHO). If only Rabin was still alive (hmmm, and he was killed by who again???).
The terrorism in Palestine and Israel is two way traffic - if you think that Israel is the innocent victim then you are seriously deluding yourself.
Will
"Look before you jump, don't die until you're dead"

[skreamer 1]

Quote

Ghandi, Martin Luther King, and Mandela than Roosevelt, Churchill or Stalin

And when the shit hits the fan again and the next Bin-Laden or Hitler comes along I know which of those I'd rather have in charge...
Will
"Look before you jump, don't die until you're dead"

[Scratch 0]

Just not Stalin. I wanna have a real gun when I charge the facist invader. A pitchfork just does not give me the same sence of security
Every day above ground is a good day.

[skreamer 1]

Ja, I'm not so sure I'm happy with Pretzel Boy anywhere near the red telephone either come to think of it....
Having Ghandi in charge would be kind of like an English Bobby (cop) : 'Stop!! or I'll say Stop again!!!!!'
"Look before you jump, don't die until you're dead"

[Scratch 0]

Quote

The US is a leader in the world on many levels and with out the US the history of the past century would have been very different. Hell, our friends across the pond would probably be speaking German.

Ummmmm Dave.
While the world recognises the significant contributions by the USA during the two world wars please do not belittle the heavy sacrifices of others by saying the USA won the war/s.
Here are a few rough stats.
WW2
Soviet Union 20,000,000 casualties civilian and military
China 15,000,000.
Germany 4,500,000 including 1,000,000 civilians.
Japan 2,000,000 casualties.
Bengal 1,500,000 died of war-related famine in 1943 in Yugoslavia 1,300,000 including 1,000,000 civilians
Italy 500,000 casualties.
France 500,000 casualties half of them civilians.
Britain 500,000
British Empire. 120,000 (Incl Canadians)
United States 300,000
Hungary, Poland, Rom 3-400,000 losses in each army of Hungary, Poland and Romania.
East & CentralEurope 5,800,000 Jews
WW1
Germany 1,808,000
Austria-Hungary 1,200,000
Russia 1,700,000
France 1,385,000
England 947,000
Italy 460,000
Poland (civilians) 500,000
Turkey 350,000
Romania 350,000
USA 115,000
As for the middel east.
That figure of 5 800 000 Jews. You realise that, that happend primeraly because the Jews were a stateless nation.
It is what drives the conflict there and to be honest it will always drive the conflict.
Every day above ground is a good day.

[skreamer 1]

Yep, scratch, and to put it in even better perspective take a look at the populations of those countries at the time and then look at the proportion of people they lost in the war. Interesting fact that after Britain, New Zealand proportionately lost the most of that generation of men.
And tell me, how would America's space programme have done without Von Braun? And how would their nuclear programme have developed without Einstein and friends? While America was experiencing their boom in the '50s, Europe was rebuilding from absolute rubble (assisted of course by some very *generous* loans from Uncle Sam).
Sorry if I'm not entirely overcome with gratitude to America for 'winning the war' for us...
Will
"Look before you jump, don't die until you're dead"

[Scratch 0]

Yo Skreamer
*high five*
Another interesting tit bit of info.
The armies of Canada were sacrificed on the beaches of Dieppe so that the Allies would know how to handle D-Day two years later.
No dead Canuks, No "Saving Private Ryan"
Every day above ground is a good day.

[skreamer 1]

Yeah buddy!!! And they done real good when they cracked the Enigma cypher for us!!! Now lets drink a beer and talk about our high school football injuries (loudly).

"Look before you jump, don't die until you're dead"

[Scratch 0]

Buuurpppp!!!!
My shoulder hurts in winter. Broke it playing against Paarl Gym.
Like that?
Every day above ground is a good day.

[skreamer 1]

I've got a sprained wrist from playing netball against the ACVV tannies - does that count?

(popped my shoulder in a mountain-bike race - tore the ligaments, now it has a 'knop' on it..)
"Look before you jump, don't die until you're dead"

[Scratch 0]

Just so long as you did not sprain that wrist while watching netball
Every day above ground is a good day.

[scottbre 0]

Quote

I am so sorry I hit on such a nerve Scott.

You didn't hit a nerve. I just thought it was funny (in a sort of sad way) that this was brought up at all, since it had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Quote

What is it the Clap? Crabs? I hear most of it is curable. Start having some sort of integrity before you go that direction though!

Not entirely sure what this is supposed to mean. But nothing personal against you, I would have made fun of that "joke" regardless of who had posted it, since it is a very low form of humor. But I digress.
Hey have you noticed that on posts sometimes the poster's name is capitalized and sometimes it isn't? Wonder why that is. "Yea, I didn't think we'd actually be turning any points..." ~ Goat #4

[billvon 3,114]

>>Ghandi, Martin Luther King, and Mandela than Roosevelt, Churchill or Stalin
>And when the shit hits the fan again and the next Bin-Laden or Hitler comes
> along I know which of those I'd rather have in charge...
You should thank your favorite deity that the leader of the black equality movement in the US was MLK and not someone like a Stalin or even Milosevic equivalent.
And when the next Bin Laden comes along, and we do exactly the same thing (i.e. blow a few thousand innocent people to bits but miss all the terrorists we were trying to find) will we be better off? Will the images of destruction that make people feel so patriotic disguise the fact that we've failed again?
-bill von

[billvon 3,114]

>You are right bill, the US needs to stop the terrorism, however I think sending
> tanks into a refugee camp is terrorism too.
Careful there! If that's terrorism, what is bombing a country and killing three thousand innocent civilians? What is developing new bombs designed specifically to kill people who try to hide?
It is very, very difficult to construct a definition of terrorism that includes Israel but does not include the US, which is one reason, I think, that no one is trying very hard to define it.
-bill von

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Bear in mind Mandela was jailed for terrorism.......Food for thought anyone?
Cya
D

[bill2 0]

Here's the fatal flaw in your argument - Hitler has no more power, inherently, than the crazy guy on the corner of the street who shouts about the second coming. His power comes from people, the very people who you claim he doesn't give a damn about.
__________________________________________
That's not a fatal flaw in my arguement, I meant that Hitler did not care about people who were not "pure" Germans. He wanted to kill Jews, gypsies, gays, anyone he called a "mongrel" race. He cared about those "pure Germans, as long as they did what he wanted. But he simply did not care about anyone else, and would kill them as easily as you or I take a breath. Lethal force did work, and worked well. I'm not saying that it's the only way, but when it is needed there simply is no substitute. As I stated earlier, people like him see talking/negotiating as a sign of weakness. Remember, the Allied powers destroyed Germany and Japan. Then we went in and helped rebuild both societies. Remember the Marshall plan?
The reason lunatics succeed is that they convince their followers they are sane. Hitler's greatness was not in his evil - there have been plenty of more evil people trying to do far more evil things. His greatness came from his charisma, his political skills, and his perfect timing.
________________________________
I agree, but however you want to define his greatness or his evil, the only way to stop him was through violence. Sad but true.
Often, trying to blow such people to bits does no more than convince the people who obey the evil leader that he is right - the US _is_ bent on murder, and they must stand loyally with the one force of good they know.
________________________________
Germany and Japan are our allies now. We should have taken out Sadam and the Republican guard back in the gulf war, we wouldn't be having so much trouble now. Remember, that Sadam is paying suicide bombers' families a reward for what they are doing in Israel.
And that's why pacifism works. It's easy to train an army to go and shoot up another army. It's much harder to train them to kill civilians, unless they have a much stronger belief - and such a belief is only maintainable if the other side is really justifiably going after them. In Germany, it was the crippling post-WWI sanctions by the victors. For Arabs, it is the constant killing of their kind by US built and purchased gunships. Bin Laden didn't need to lie about the US to recruit his followers - he just had to turn on CNN.
___________________________________
How about the constant killing of Jews by Arabs? Remember, it's the Arabs who have stated again and again for decades that they want to exterminate all Jews. How many Jews do you think would be alive if the military situation were reversed, i.e., if the Arabs had the military competence and the Jews did not? And how often do Arab countries get open news casts. Their societies are very controlled, and information to them has been greatly massaged before they hear it. The vast majority of Muslim and Arab countries are not democracies, and their governments are quite happy to focus their people's anger on the US and Israel. It keeps them from thinking about why they are doing so poorly.