What is patriotism?

[JDBoston 0]

I've got a good one for everybody. Define what patriotism means.
Does it mean supporting "American" ideals as expressed in the founding documents of the country?
Does it mean supporting whatever the current democratically-elected leaders are doing?
Interested to hear people's interpretations.... my personal interpretation is that it means supporting American ideals of freedom of speech, the press, and so on, NOT necessarily supporting the political structure or leaders.
But then again, I probably have a different conception of what the "American" ideals mean than the founding fathers did. For instance, I think they should apply to women and black people too... hmmm..... so maybe these "ideals" can change over time...
Joe

[scottbre 0]

Patriotism doesn't have anything to do with American or democracy. To be patriotic you just have to love your country.
"Yea, I didn't think we'd actually be turning any points..." ~ Goat #4

[JDBoston 0]

Guess I should have stated it more clearly: what does patriotism mean if you're an American?
Joe

[kmcguffee 0]

Whatever the definition, It does not include sitting around and criticizing everything that the government does. There is 'action' and 'sacrifice' in patriotism.
A great meny people think that being a 'critic' of everything they disagree with is 'patriotism'. QUIT WHINING! Get off of your butt and do something about it! It is way too easy to criticize. I can find fault with ANYTHING that ANYONE does if I look hard enough. The person who counts (the patriot) is the one out working for what they believe in. We have too many sniveling cry babies in this country today.
If you are not actively trying to change what you disagree with then support it. That is what being a member of a team is and it applies to being a member of a country too.

[Scratch 0]

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patriotism mean if you're an American?

You nod a lot through any Steven Segal movie
Every day above ground is a good day.

[scottbre 0]

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If you are not actively trying to change what you disagree with then support it.

That doesn't make any logical sense at all. I could give examples of where this statement would lead to some really odd and unsavory conclusions, but I shouldn't need to.

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That is what being a member of a team is and it applies to being a member of a country too.

I disagree with this too. The reason the United States is so great is because so many people in this country work against each other to accomplish their specific goals. If everyone in the US supported their government in a team mentality, then the government could do anything it wanted with impunity, and not be held accountable for it.
"Yea, I didn't think we'd actually be turning any points..." ~ Goat #4

[TheMarshMan1 0]

Well, according to Webster's a patriot is: "one who loves his country and zealously supports its authority and interests."
but Patriotism is simply: "Love or devotion for one's country."
So I think you can be patriotic without being a patriot in the truest sense of the word. In my opinion, being patriotic doesn't mean you have to agree with everything every political leader says. It means you fully support the country as a whole.
"If I could be like that, I would give anything, just to live one day, in those shoes..."

[JDBoston 0]

Good point. But then you should also apply this to people who sit around and cheerlead for everything the government does as opposed to criticizing it, still without taking any action or making any sacrifice. It's much easier to cheerlead than it is to criticize, since usually cheerleaders have more company and support.
In this case, a real patriot would be someone who actively contributes, either for or against the government, based on ideals they identify as "American," or "Canadian," or whatever... right? Assuming, of course, that they aren't hiding behind the word patriot to justify blowing up children, like Tim McVeigh. That's one exception I would make. It can be a pretty tricky word sometimes.
Joe

[kmcguffee 0]

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That doesn't make any logical sense at all. I could give examples of where this statement would lead to some really odd and unsavory conclusions, but I shouldn't need to.

As long as those actions are lawful I don't see why this doesn't make sense. Explain.

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I disagree with this too. The reason the United States is so great is because so many people in this country work against each other to accomplish their specific goals. If everyone in the US supported their government in a team mentality, then the government could do anything it wanted with impunity, and not be held accountable for it.

No, the reason this country is so great is because we are able to put our differences aside when needed and work together to accomplish a common goal. I didn't say blindly support the government, I said to put action behind your words. The action can be in agreement or disagreement with what the government is doing. Quit adding things that I am not saying. I've never seen a successful organization where everyone was working in a different direction. That is ludicrous. BTW.....the government has its own checks and balances also.

[kmcguffee 0]

You are right. It goes both ways. I should have said 'legal' action.

[GrumpySmurf 0]

Is that where a big country beats up on a little country
Imperialism got such a bad rep back at the turn of the century they had to come up with a new term for it, so I think they call it patriotism now?
See if China takes back Taiwan, before that would be called Imperialistic, but now the Chinese would refer to that as being Patriotic in that they are re-uniting thier country.

[scottbre 0]

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If you are not actively trying to change what you disagree with then support it.

Someone can disagree with cloning and not be actively trying to change it, but that doesn't mean that they have to or should support it just because they aren't actively trying to change it.
You can substitute any number of things into the above statement in place of "cloning." Such as:
abortion, affirmative action, religion in schools, seatbelt laws, or scrambled vs. sunny-side-up.
That's the beauty of the US, people have the freedom to have any opinion they want on a given issue, without being torn down by the the government or collective society.

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I didn't say blindly support the government, I said to put action behind your words. The action can be in agreement or disagreement with what the government is doing.

People do this all the time. And if someone in power feels threatened by it, it isn't generally too hard to figure out a way claim that that person is breaking one law or another when they are "backing up their words with actions." What would be more appropriate would be so say that you should actively back up your opinion on something as long as (a) it is non threatening to the government's way of thinking (b) nobody really cares what you are doing or what you think or (c) it is in direct alignment with the way the majority already feels anyway.

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Quit adding things that I am not saying.

Unless I hack into your account and edit your posts, I am not changing what you say. Your post still stands as it is. However, this is a forum setting, and I have every right to offer my interpretation of what you said or disagree with you and tell you that you are wrong, as long as it is done in a manner that is appropriate to the rules of courtesy that are implicit in these forums. If you don't like that I have the ability to do that, then don't post, then I won't have anything of yours to respond to.

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I've never seen a successful organization where everyone was working in a different direction.

I don't think I said that everyone was working in a different direction. Just that everyone isn't working in the same direction. Wouldn't be much of a democracy or free market otherwise.
"Yea, I didn't think we'd actually be turning any points..." ~ Goat #4

[JDBoston 0]

But what if the government said that all dissent from the party line is illegal? Where does that leave the patriots? (not the Patriots, we all know they won the Super Bowl)
Joe

[kmcguffee 0]

Read this:

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Quit adding things that I am not saying.

Now read what you said:

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I am not changing what you say.

The difference would be 'adding' vs 'changing'. I didn't accuse you of changing anything.

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Someone can disagree with cloning and not be actively trying to change it, but that doesn't mean that they have to or should support it just because they aren't actively trying to change it.

We are not discussing what they can or can't do. We are discussing what makes a patriot. You can't actively fight everything you disagree with but you can become involved to change the things that are most important to you. You can take the extreme view on all of my comments to try and make them seem wrong if you like but you are missing my point.

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What would be more appropriate would be so say that you should actively back up your opinion on something as long as (a) it is non threatening to the government's way of thinking (b) nobody really cares what you are doing or what you think or (c) it is in direct alignment with the way the majority already feels anyway.

I have no idea where this came from. Do you live in the same country as me?

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I don't think I said that everyone was working in a different direction. Just that everyone isn't working in the same direction.

OK, now you have really confused me. If everyone isn't working in the same direction then either (1) they are not all working or (2) they are working in different directions.

[Haeloth 0]

Patriotism is what the powers that be use when it wants you to do something unpleasant and dangerous such as traveling to foreign countries to kill people there, or when it wants you to support the unpopular desicion of sending peolple to foreign countries to kill people there.
In short, it is a way of tolerating unpleasant things.
Nobody expects the...um...the Spanish...um...

[AggieDave 6]

Patriotism is the love for your country. That doesn't mean you always agree with it, it doesn't mean that you always disagree with it, it means that you love it. Patriotism is what will drive you to support a different canidate, to write your congressman (women) if you disagree with a policy, to campaign and lobby if something needs to be changed.
Patriotism is also feeling pain when you see someone disrespecting our flag, when someone is burning it, trampling it, for that is the symbol of our fathers past and our childrens future. Yes, the Supreme Court has ruled that it is a freedom of speech, but is it one that should be excersized.
Patriotism is defending your country to the best of your ability to all threats, foriegn AND domestic. A domestic threat isn't just some asshole with a fertilizer bomb, it could be a politician you don't agree with, or a policy you think is wrong. It is your patriotic duty to work to make your voice heard to try to change it.
Patriotism is supporting our troops, even if you don't agree with where they are going. It is not their fault they are are, lobby and campaign against who sent them there. They are fulfilling their oath to fight for their country. Reading about how our troops were treated after Vietnam deeply saddens me, they were doing their job and shouldn't have treated that way by the general public.
A human cannonball, I rise above it all
Up higher then a trapeze, I can fly

[ChromeBoy 0]

...and justice for all.

[AndyMan 7]

Other then love for ones country, I'm not sure what it is.
I do know what it is not.
Patriotism is not blindly supporting your nations leader.
Patriotism is not blindly supporting your nations army.
Patriotism is not blindly supporting your nations laws.
Patriotism is not blindly supporting your nations policies.
Patriotism is not blindly supporting your nations culture.
Patriotism is not necesarly loving the way things were, or the way things are. It could just as easily be loving the way things will be, or the way things SHOULD be.
To me, patriotism is loving the founding principles of my countries, both the one I was born in and the one I live in. I love what these countries ARE SUPOSED to stand for. I'm frustrated because the country I live in seems to wander farther and farther from those principles daily. The country I was born in seems to blindly follow.
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[Lindsey 0]

I think you said that very well, Dave....
some days it's just not worth gnawing through the straps
http://home.earthlink.net/~linzwalley

[kmcguffee 0]

Excellent Dave. Almost brought a tear to my eye.

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[ChromeBoy 0]

Patriotism = Love of the New England Patriots!!!!!!!!!!!

[Muenkel 0]

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Patriotism = Love of the New England Patriots!!!!!!!!!!!

ditto
Such an interesting monster with such an interesting hairdo.
Chris

[scottbre 0]

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The difference would be 'adding' vs 'changing'. I didn't accuse you of changing anything.

Right. Big difference. How can you add to something without changing it?

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OK, now you have really confused me. If everyone isn't working in the same direction. . .

Let me clarify. You made a comment about an organization where everyone is working in a different direction and how that wouldn't work. I was trying to say that I didn't mean that every individual person worked towards a difference goal, but that there are many different groups of people and schools of thought that are working towards different goals, often in opposition to each other.

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We are not discussing what they can or can't do. We are discussing what makes a patriot.

You asked for examples. I had originally said that they were obvious that they didn't really need mentioning, but I indulged your question and gave you examples. And if we are talking about patriotism, and patriotism involves our country, then any issues within our country are at the very least tangentally related.
More valuable information can be communicated in these forums if the people posting on "controversial" threads present there opinion as "their opinion" in the spirit of trying to convince others to see it their way, as opposed to presenting it as "the way it is" with no room for exceptions.
Fact is, some of what you say is biased and wrong, regardless of how strongly you believe it. Same goes for some of the things that I say. If we had all the answers, like we like to pretend that we do, then we would have a lot of things we would be doing that would be more worth our time that posting here.

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What is a patriot?

It's a bad hack movie, that is too long and way too reminescient of Braveheart. "Yea, I didn't think we'd actually be turning any points..." ~ Goat #4

[FallingMarc 0]

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It's a bad hack movie, that is too long and way too reminescient of Braveheart

True, but when the little girl finally broke her silence and cried for Mel Gibson to not leave again is the only scene in any movie that ever made me feel like I might actually cry.
M

[scottbre 0]

Yea, that was sort of touching. But hollywood is good at those kinda scenes.
"Yea, I didn't think we'd actually be turning any points..." ~ Goat #4