More on Bush and Faith.

[billvon 3,116]

>An extremist is still an extremist whether you agree with him or not. You're still
> trying to compare apples to oranges.
Well, no. Few extremists consider themselves extremists. People who are hard-set atheists see themselves as normal, and see very religious people as extremists - and vice versa. Neither is any more right than the other.
-bill von

[quade 4]

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Few extremists consider themselves extremists.

Further, very few people consider themselves to be evil.
Just a guess on my part, but I'm pretty sure that even Hitler thought he was doing the right thing.
quade
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[james1010 0]

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I'm curious why you feel the need to take my opinion of G.W Bush as a personal attack on yourself?

I didn't realize I was. Honestly, I try not to take anything as a personal attack. I'm quite sure nobody on this forum would do that, even you.
James

[ChromeBoy 0]

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Further, very few people consider themselves to be evil.

Dr. Evil is an exception. He enjoys being evil.

[PLFKING 4]

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I try not to take anything as a personal attack. I'm quite sure nobody on this forum would do that

Well, James, just be patient....I'm sure Richard will show up eventually....
Don

[james1010 0]

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Few extremists consider themselves extremists.

True, but it would depend on who you ask. Some mountain dwelling miltiamen in the US would gladly dawn the title extremist. Myself, I take the Bible so literally that I wouldn't necessarily deny being extreme about it. In any case, I just didn't see the parallel between President Bush and an Infidel exterminator.
James

[james1010 0]

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I'm sure Richard will show up eventually....

That should be interesting, although I'm not sure who he is.

[ChromeBoy 0]

WE ARE THE WORLD
There comes a time when we need a certain call
When the world must come together as one
There are people dying
Oh, and it's time to lend a hand to life
The greatest gift of all
We can't go on pretending day by day
That someone, somehow will soon make a change
We're all a part of God's great big family
And the truth - you know love is all we need
(CHORUS )
We are the world, we are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day
so let's start giving
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day
Just you and me
Well, send'em you your heart
So they know that someone cares
And their lives will be stronger and free
As God has shown us
By turning stone to bread
And so we all must lend a helping hand
( REPEAT CHORUS )
When you're down and out
There seems no hope at all
But if you just believe
There's no way we can fall
Well, well, well, let's realize
That one change can only come
When we stand together as one
( REPEAT CHORUS AND FADE )

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[kmcguffee 0]

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Dr. Evil is an exception. He enjoys being evil.

LOL...I was thinking the exact same thing.

[quade 4]

If I recall correctly, Dr. Evil is a fictional character.
quade
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[ChromeBoy 0]

How dare you call Sangiro fictional...lol

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[Muenkel 0]

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WE ARE THE WORLD
There comes a time when we need a certain call
When the world must come together as one
There are people dying
Oh, and it's time to lend a hand to life
The greatest gift of all
We can't go on pretending day by day
That someone, somehow will soon make a change
We're all a part of God's great big family
And the truth - you know love is all we need
(CHORUS )
We are the world, we are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day
so let's start giving
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day
Just you and me
Well, send'em you your heart
So they know that someone cares
And their lives will be stronger and free
As God has shown us
By turning stone to bread
And so we all must lend a helping hand
( REPEAT CHORUS )
When you're down and out
There seems no hope at all
But if you just believe
There's no way we can fall
Well, well, well, let's realize
That one change can only come
When we stand together as one
( REPEAT CHORUS AND FADE )

Dude, this is just sad. You actually know all the words to this song?
Such an interesting monster with such an interesting hairdo.
Chris

[kmcguffee 0]

SkyDekker,
I agree with what you are saying for the most part. One big difference between the Muslim extremists killing civilians and the coalition forces killing civilians is that we are not targeting them. The Muslim extremists are trying to kill civilians. Our forces do not do that. We take extreme pains to not endanger civilians, even to the point of increasing the risk to our own military forces. I know this for a fact. I spent 9 years as an Army Infantry Officer and I received numerous constraints during missions that increased the danger to my soldiers in order to reduce the possiblity of civilian casualties. There is a difference between terrorism and how we conduct operations period. It also places more pressure on our military when the enemy places civilians in the line of fire in order to drum up propoganda cases against the coalition. Yet, we still receive the blame when this happens. It appalls me that the media and a large part of the world cannot see through this.

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I am trying to get across that a combination of religion and state, in my opinion, is a major factor in why we are currently killing people around the world.

Yet, these two things are a major reason for the prosperity and peace that exist in the world also. Everything can be twisted around and used for personal gain.

[kmcguffee 0]

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If I recall correctly, Dr. Evil is a fictional character.

Uuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhh, yep. That would be correct. [whisper] It was a joke.[/whisper]

[Sinkster 0]

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Well, no. Few extremists consider themselves extremists. People who are hard-set atheists see themselves as normal, and see very religious people as extremists - and vice versa. Neither is any more right than the other.

I agree that extreme is relative, but I do not think you can logically say that "Neighther is any more right than the other." unless you want to take the stance that morality is subjective. If someone says that it is morally right to torture childeren and someone else says that it is morally wrong are both people no more right than the other one? Clearly it would be incoherent for both to be right. So again, it all depends on what the truth about morality and ethics are. Someone is going to be more right than another person if morality is objective or even if what it means to be moral is based on general utility.
Also, for those of you who believe that there is no objective morality and that I should just be tolerant of everyone else I would like to point out that the maxim of "toleration" is an objective statement that cannot be supported if morality is really subjective. Therefore, if I reject toleration as a virtue there is no grounds to say that I am doing wrong, because after all, if morality is subjective and if I believe toleration is wrong who are you to say I should tolerate anyone else's viewpoint?
-Sinkster

[quade 4]

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[whisper] It was a joke.[/whisper]

[whisper] So was mine. [/whisper]
quade
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[kmcguffee 0]

Whoa! You need to knock that down about 5 notches and 'say again'.

[ChromeBoy 0]

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[whisper] So was mine. [/whisper]

[whisper] Mine too. [/whisper]

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[james1010 0]

[whisper] on with the discussion [/whisper]

[kmcguffee 0]

[whisper]Why are we whispering?[/whisper]

[james1010 0]

[whisper] I'm at work, and I don't want to get in trouble. [/whisper]

[billvon 3,116]

>but I do not think you can logically say that "Neighther is any more right than the
> other." unless you want to take the stance that morality is subjective.
Morality _is_ subjective. My morals work only for me, and I wouldn't try to impose most of them on anyone else.
>If someone says that it is morally right to torture childeren and someone else
> says that it is morally wrong are both people no more right than the other one?
No one says it's morally right to torture children. We _do_ say that it's morally OK to sexually mutilate children though (male circumcision) because, in our society, that's considered normal. I can easily imagine that another society would call cutting off the tip of a child's penis torture. Again, a subjective judgement.
>Clearly it would be incoherent for both to be right.
Are democrats or republicans right? Are jews or catholics right? Depends on which you are, generally. It's not all that coherent, but it's the way the world works.
>Also, for those of you who believe that there is no objective morality and that I
> should just be tolerant of everyone else I would like to point out that the maxim
> of "toleration" is an objective statement that cannot be supported if morality is
> really subjective.
No, toleration means that you put up with any old crap that someone else does as long as it doesn't break the law. The law is our bare minimum set of morals, ones that are necessary to live in peace with each other.
>Therefore, if I reject toleration as a virtue there is no grounds to say that I am
> doing wrong, because after all, if morality is subjective and if I believe toleration
> is wrong who are you to say I should tolerate anyone else's viewpoint?
You do not need to accept anyone else's viewpoint. You can reject it if you want. You just can't kill them because you disagree.
-bill von

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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In any case, I just didn't see the parallel between President Bush and an Infidel exterminator.

I did not say there was a parallel. I was wondering if in the case of the Infidel Exterminator you would still agree with the non-seperation of church and state. If you would not, then where do you draw the line. How much interaction then should there be?
Second, I was trying to indicate how dangerous the combination of church and state can be.
I was NOT stating that Bush and the Infidel Exterminator are the same.
SkyDekker
"We cannot do great things, only small things with great love" Mother Theresa

[kmcguffee 0]

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>If someone says that it is morally right to torture childeren and someone else
> says that it is morally wrong are both people no more right than the other one?
No one says it's morally right to torture children. We _do_ say that it's morally OK to sexually mutilate children though (male circumcision) because, in our society, that's considered normal. I can easily imagine that another society would call cutting off the tip of a child's penis torture. Again, a subjective judgement.

I don't think that male circumcision compares with child torture in this argument. Circumcision has some medical proponents even though the consensus is that it is not absolutely required. Whereas torture is inflicting pain upon an individual for the primary purpose of causing pain and usually some type of secondary purpose like gaining information, entertainment, etc.

[quade 4]

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I don't think that male circumcision compares with child torture in this argument.

Ok, how do you feel about the female circumcision issues over in Africa?
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