Star Wars Ruminations - SPOILERS

[Zennie 0]

Now that I've seen it a second time after the initial "new Star wars movie" euphoria wore off, I think I can place it in my rankings.
1. The Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. Attack Of The Clones
4. The Phantom Menace
5. Return Of The Jedi
It'll be really hard for Lucas to top Empire & ANH. AOTC is an improvement over its two immediate predecessors, but it still suffers from bad dialogue and bland acting (especially Natalie Portman & Samuel L. Jackson). The "Sound of Music" sequence was so laughable I really think Lucas tried to be intentionally cheesy.
I'm glad I watched Empire the night before. The parallels were quite remarkable. Obi-Wan & Dooku basically re-enacting Empire's "temptation" scene. Anakin losing his arm. Anakin leaving to assist a suffering loved one before his training was complete.
Couple of thoughts regarding tie-ins to Luke....
Struggles with the Dark Side obviously run in the Skywalker family and that seems to be a fundamental element of the saga... people who are basically good being tormented by inner demons and starting down the Dark path with the intention of doing good. You even see that a bit with Dooku.
I'm now convinced that Luke was basically a Dark Jedi all throughout ROTJ. Wearing black. Slightly arrogant. using Dark arts (the choke hold on the guards at Jabba's palace). Threatening to "destroy" Jabba. Though still he believed he was good, he was heading well down the Dark path. It's not until the very end that he see's Vader's severed mechanical hand, looks at his own and realizes what he's done.
What he does that Anakin fails to do is turn away.
My guess is in the next sequence we'll see a pivotal moment like that in the next movie where Anakin realizes where he's going but in a moment of weakness continues down the path, possibly because he thinks it's too late to turn back or his anger gets the better of him.
Oh yeah, & Yoda's a badass.
I'll shut up now & let others comment...
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[skymama 37]

Wow, Zennie, you've really analyzed these movies! I've only seen the very first Star Wars, but I saw an interesting piece on the movies the other day. It said that Lucas had always planned on it being like a long 12 hour movie from the very start, and it's all supposed to flow together. And, when asked why the women have such funky hairstyles (you know it's all about the hair!), he said that he always hated it when he saw 1950's gladiator movies, and you could tell by the women's hairstyles what era the movie was made in. So, he has the funky dos in his movies, because no real women would ever wear their hair that way, and so you wouldn't have that image in your head like, "oh, this was the one that was made in the 80's".
Andrea
I'm high as a kite
I just might
Stop and check you out.

[quade 4]

I don't know if you happened to see the special sections on the Phantom Menace DVD, but there is a section where Lucas talks about the entire story arc and his telling of the story as if it's one very large musical composition. He goes on to detail the recurring themes in each of the films from little throw away lines like "I've got a very bad feeling about this" to the larger themes such as cyclical nature of the two stories of Anakin and Luke. A very nice little interview about epic story telling.
In Attack of the Clones, we see the many parallels of not only Empire, but also Luke's story in Hope. He thinks he's being held back, his family dies, he's a whiny little punk.
I'm very, very pleased by the way that Lucas was able to pull this grander scheme off and I think it's a huge point that's over looked by the majority of film reviewers.
I can't wait to see the way everything comes together in Episode 3.
quade
http://futurecam.com

[Zennie 0]

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Wow, Zennie, you've really analyzed these movies!

You have no idea. I've even sucked in Liz. last night we were watching ATOC and in the one scene where Anakin is looking for his mother you see the huge sand crawler and him talking to a little robed guy. Liz goes "Those are Jawas right?" I was seriously impressed.
I got message on my answering machine from my bor-in-law asking "Who was saying 'Anakin! NO!'" in Yoda's meditation.
I'm pretty sure it was Qui Gon.
Yes I'm a geek.
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[jfields 0]

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Yes I'm a geek.

Admitting you have the problem is the first step on the road to recovery.
Justin

[Zennie 0]

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Admitting you have the problem is the first step on the road to recovery.

It.. is.. too late for me.
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[quade 4]

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It.. is.. too late for me.

Yeah, if you're quoting Darth Vader's death scene in your conversations then I'm guess it IS too late.
Then again, how much of a geek does that make me for recognizing it?
quade
http://futurecam.com

[freeflir29 0]

Where can I obtain this sort of free time....
"Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[quade 4]

Where can I obtain a decent severance package?
quade
http://futurecam.com

[freeflir29 0]

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Where can I obtain a decent severance package?

I don't know...mine sucks...but when you're quitting anyway...I say take it....
"Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[quade 4]

Proof that I'm not the biggest geek in the universe.
See THIS.
This is a man that has spent way too much time in the analysis of the Star Wars epic.
quade
http://futurecam.com

[FallingMarc 0]

Proof that I'm at least somewhat of a geek: if anyone played the old PC "TIE Fighter" game as intently as I did, the ideas in that article probably sounded very familiar.
I think this movie totally redeemed Lucas, personally. People have complained about the huge number of characters and little bits of stories all over, but AOTC had so much to set up for episode 3, I don't think it would have been possible to have a small, charismatic cast that you could get to know well (like in episodes 4-6) accomplish the same task. And any movie that can keep me paying close attention for a full 2 hours and 40 minutes has to have some merit.
I also find it hilarious that Jar Jar Binks plays such an integral role in bringing Palpatine to power. Just think, if someone had just shot him in TPM like we all wanted to, there might have been no Empire...
M

[AggieDave 6]

I just saw the movie tonight on DLP, it freak'n rocked!
Another thing I noticed about AotC was the Imperial March (Darth Vader's march) and how it was incorrporated into the movie. As the Dark Side was brought more and more into focus through the characters, the theme became more centralized instead of a fleeting melody line within a different theme. Also, the Imperial March went from a quick trumpet/french horn lick to a more sinister sounding Trombone/Baratone theme as things became "more evil." I thought that was a really neat thing that John Williams did. Add a lot to the mood of the different scenes, that's for sure.
And, yes Zennie, Yoda is a freak'n bad ass! I think I need to go watch it a couple more times now...
Aerials
So up high
When you free your lives (the) eternal prize

[FallingILweenie 0]

Just saw the movie myself, and some observations from it:
If Lucas thinks Digital is better than film, he's out of his freakin mind....I saw a film transfer of somethign that was originally shot digitally...the ranges of the colors and tones and clarity of the picture was not on par with film....the difference between the film and the previews before it was very clear.
As to the movie itself:
What Lucas should do for Episode 3 is give someone a story and tell them to write a screenplay, and then he should hire someone else to direct it. The acting wasn't great, but that was because the lines for most of the film were so flat..the beginning where Amidala and Anakin meet up again for the first time in years was so bland it was brutal...i was thinking "i gotta sit through two and a half hrs of this???"
As a stand alone film, the movie would fall flat.
I had fun watching it though because of the way it started to show the formation of the empire and anakin's fall from grace (personally i thought the way they were forming the empire, with the storm troopers--and yoda leading em into battle no less, and the plans for the death star, was all freaking cool). It set up and explained a lot of things in the original 3 films that did add a lot. Also, seeing how Bobba Fett becomes such a bad-ass is pretty neat.
The thing I loved about the film was the battle sequences. Probably some of the best special effects ever. While i still think CGI can't do live creatures well, explosions and robots work just fine.
All in all i enjoyed it but i know that when i see it on DVD i will probably be bored with it cuz most of that movie is eye candy. Personally i don't like Lucas cuz he sold out his ideas that he held so dear in the first 3 films but i think this is a step in the right direction. I dont think he redeemed himself but i think he has a real good chance to in episode 3.
That's my rant, and my opinions, of course....
Oh, and a friend and i think we know how episode 3 will end...it will be a shot of Palpatine in his Emperor garb looking out a window at the construction of the death star as Anakin comes in decked out as Vader and walks up to his side behind him.
blue skies
Tomas
ps. the sequences in the car chase where anakin and obi wan fall....pretty good standard belly positions.....
"Marge, it takes 2 people to lie. One to lie and one to listen."
-Homer

[AggieDave 6]

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If Lucas thinks Digital is better than film, he's out of his freakin mind....

You're wrong.
I saw it on DLP, Digital Light Projector, how its supposed to be seen and it was like nothing I've seen. Over the past few years I've seen 2 other DLP movies, but for picture quality and color depth this was far beyond anything that I have ever seen before. The difference is absolutely amazing, we're talking the difference between watching an old worn VHS movie and a DVD on a new flat screen TV. No I am not exagerating, it *is* that good.
Personally, I think that TPM had to be how it was, if you look at the 6 films as being a 2 hour film, TPM was like the first 15 minutes of a film. It was character building, AotC is like the next 30 minutes, the declinsion, the beginning of the fall. And that is needed.
Personally I think if you take a step back for a minute and look at the films as a whole, you'll see that Lucas did a pretty good job here, even if he didn't kill off Jar Jar.
Aerials
So up high
When you free your lives (the) eternal prize

[FallingILweenie 0]

Actually, Dave, I'm not wrong on the digital thing. I've heard that the digital projection looks really nice and i'm sure it does (i am going to go into Chicago sometime soon to see it for myself), but the fact is a movie shot on film, and projected on film, looks better than a movie shot digitally and projected digitally. The upside of digital is the movie wont scratch or wear out, and it will be cheaper to make once the equipment is in place (which i think is something like 150,000 per projector). But the range of colors and tones that 35 mm or 70 mm film gives simply isn't there. With Episode 2, the action sequences and special effects were incredible so seeing subtle differences like that while all hell is breaking loose on screen is kinda hard, but it was visible on the darker scenes in the movie. Blacks were more like dark blues or grays, and there were shots where there was a sort of hazyness that almost looked like a TV screen. I'm not the only one that saw this.
On a related note, Roger Ebert has a film festival at U of Illinois every spring. A couple of years ago, the topic of their panel discussion was this very thing: film vs digital. The panel talked about other things but I remember that the biggest thing they talked about, and that htey mostly agreed on, was the lack of quality of digital imagery vs. the film medium.
I'm not saying digital quality can't be better than film. I'm just saying it's not there yet.
"Marge, it takes 2 people to lie. One to lie and one to listen."
-Homer

[flyingferret 0]

I agree. I think this movie was far better than TPM. But....I dont think it measured up to the first three (in the 70s). Chances are after two attempts, the first three episodes never will in my book. I will balance that by saying I am not a HUGE Star Wars fan, and I think LOTR is much better. Yes, I know that will start a flame war. But the truth of the matter is, either due to directing or actors themselves, the portrayal of human emotion just is not there. Or maybe it is too there, almost brutish, clumsy. There were a few moments were I thought man, this is so cliche. Like, the love scenes, the silhuette shot of Boba holding the helmet, Windu saying "we are not soldiers." That being said...the movie did kick ass. And Yoda freaking...well...I am speechless. So yes, I liked it. But I think it was due largely to increased 'aggressive negotiations' To FallingIlWeenie: "While i still think CGI can't do live creatures well, explosions and robots work just fine".. You do know Yoda was all CGI right? I have to say that is the best CGI I have ever seen, with maybe the exception of Final Fantasy. As for the DLP, it kicked ass!! In all practicality it beats film. I am not a huge film buff, so I will not argue specs. But I did say in all practicality. Remember LPs 'technically' have more range than CDs. To actually use that your lps have to be perfect, and you have to have one hell of a turntable with some damn good analog harware attached. Same with DLP, maybe film could by spec hit better results. But you know what? It doesn't, not today's directors on today's screens. Maybe more attention is paid by the people who have shelled out money for the DLP. But that screen last night was AWESOME. It was like watching a DVD on a movie screen. So if film can do that, I don't know why they aren't.
Bottom Line: Yoda rocked like no other, the movie was good, but Lucas has been much better before, light sabre duels sell tickets, and for epic human emotion go see LOTR (if you have read the book, otherwise you probably will not think the first movie is much of an epic start).
Malachi

[AggieDave 6]

You missed what I said. I disputed that you stated that Lucas was wrong for going digital. He is not, that is the future of film, the future is here and becoming more and more available (slowly, albight). I wasn't disputing the fact that converting different mediums between digital and analog disolves quality and clarity, that is widely known.
Go see it on DLP and come back to your argument, I bet you change your mind in quite a few ways.
Aerials
So up high
When you free your lives (the) eternal prize

[indyz 1]

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Go see it on DLP and come back to your argument, I bet you change your mind in quite a few ways.

The Chicagoland area only has 4 locations with DLP projectors, and they are all as far from me as possible. OTH, that probably means that there is one somewhere near Tomas...
--
Brian

[FallingILweenie 0]

OK, to respond to some of what was said....
Yeah, for better of for worse, I agree with you, Dave...cinema will go digital. I just hope it takes long enough so that the technology is able to catch up in terms of quality. I would hate it if in the next 3 years the digital pro jectors became affordable enough for the multiplexes (which i think also help ruin cinema, but that is another story altogether) to be able to equip each theater. I think that then picture quality that we have come to appreciate in film will be lost because people will assume that whatever they currently have is "good enough". Just my opinion, of course.
As far as the CGI stuff...of course i knew Yoda was CG. What i mean by saying that live creatures can't, in my opinion, be animated right but that robots and other things can is that when doing live creatures (like Yoda) the animators tend to overdo it. For example, you will see close-ups of a CGI character in which they will make his face twitch and move in overly exaggerated ways to make them seem more lifelike. I think that until the animators realize they don't have to do it, CGI won't work for lifelike characters. The other part of CGI i don't like is the fact that any CGI work looks too glossy for my taste. The dirt, grit, and grime that you get from having an actual puppet there (in Yoda's case, again) isn't there....the image, even if they add drool or what have you, looks way too shiny. I think that they are improving rapidly as far as the way CGI looks, but I don't thinik it's there yet. One of the friends that saw the movie with me said they liked Yoda better as a puppet. Now, this friend isn't a big film buff or anything and he was able to tell the difference...
Oh, and i was quite blown away by some of the CGI stuff...like the big battle scenes...that stuff was really impressive. I'd say better in some respects than Final Fantasy (which i also saw in the theater---best tech demo ever...shitty story tho). I'm just saying i dont like the way they animate organic creatures.
To more directly refute the point about LP's and CDs....if you take a film shot in digital and one using celluloid and transfer them to DVD, chances are you won't see too much of a difference cuz of the limitations of the consumer equipment (namely the dvd player and the television set). It was mentioned that it would be like watching a DVD on a huge screen....that's just it, it's supposed to be WAY BETTER than that. If you think that the film was just like watching a dvd, with the only difference being a bigger screen, then you didn't notice the letdown in quality. If this was home equipment, i would agree in that digital and film wouldn't matter that much, but when you are watching it a the theater where they have the expensive projectors and big screens, i think i have a valid gripe. And maybe today's director's aren't fully taking advantage of the medium...at least mainstream ones aren't. But i will say this: a few weeks ago i got to see 2001 on the big screen--a 70 mm print of it. I own the film on DVD and have a 27 inch tv (which isn't huge but is still pretty good). There is no comparison. None. I love seeing 2001 at home, but seeing the scope of the vision how it was meant to be seen was unbelievable. I haven;t seen the DVD since and I don't know if i will be able to see it in the same light again.
But, bottom line, the movie was entertaining. Yoda's fight seen was fun, if a bit cheesy. I don't usually get really passionate about many things but film is one of them. I think Hollywood is destroying film as an art and it pains me to see people praising stuff like Episode 2 as the greatest thing ever. Please, don't think i am inferring anything to anyone that has replied...i'm speaking in more generic terms.... It;s just there are films out there that are true works of art that no one sees becaues they are overshadowed by the eye candy films of the summer blockbuster and it's a real shame.
I will see the film on a digital projection soon, i hope, and i really expect that it will change my mind because if nothing else i expect more professionalism from Lucas with Star Wars than what i saw. I'm sure that some things will look better. My main point from before is just that if it had been shot on film and projected on film it would look better than shot digitally and projected digitally because the expensive equipment to project the film is already out there and the technology to make digital look as good as film does not yet exist.
I just hope this response makes sense...i have been flipping back and forth to see what the other responses were and tried to tie everything together into one cohesive argument. Cohesive being the operative word.
Good discussions everyone. The points you bring up are valid. I just disagree. Now, can someone make it nice here so i can skydive?
blue skies
Tomas
ps. saw a preview of the matrix sequels.....oh shit that's gonna be cool.
"Marge, it takes 2 people to lie. One to lie and one to listen."
-Homer

[AggieDave 6]

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Now, can someone make it nice here so i can skydive?

I could, but my big red fix everything button has been broken for about two weeks...You could join us down here in Aggieland, we've got great weather and $13 dollar jumps. Aerials
So up high
When you free your lives (the) eternal prize

[FallingILweenie 0]

I'd love to go down and play with ya...the money for a road trip isn't there right now. But maybe in the fall, when the weather starts to suck up here I'll make my rounds down in the southern US and hit Texas, Florida, AZ, etc.
In the meantime, have that button fixed by next weekend cuz I have a 20 jump weekend planned and I need good weather!
blue skies
Tomas
"Marge, it takes 2 people to lie. One to lie and one to listen."
-Homer

[jtval 0]

ok I saw the movie today...I downloaded it. there is no way for me too see it in the movies while I am in Korea.
Ive had one question since episode 1-- if r2d2 and c3po were anikan's to begin with, what took so long to find out"who's your daddy?"
anyway, the quality of the film I watched was bootleeged so I missed some of the better graphics so I cant comment. but yoda is a little green bad ass. even though some of the story/lines were weak. it looks like the 3rd movie should start right off in to the heat of it and wrap it all up. much like Empire.the thingthat must be hard it to try to pass these movuies along and act as if we dont know the ending...but when everyone is link point A to point C ther is gonna be alot of things left unsiad.the 3rd movie should be good. he better not die before he finishes!
(Quade)
when I was stationed in Ga. alot of ppl I worked with were geeks of the star wars type. they said according to the books Luke does go to the dark side..but basically just to become a stronger jedi. if what they said is true yoda is a pussy compared to luke(not necessarily mark hamill)
Oh yea. natalie is a frekn hottie! isnt that supposed to be mentoined with every Geek post?
Life's a bitch, and I'm her Pimp!
JT
http://community.webshots.com/album/38342922cgxRPs

[Zennie 0]

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if r2d2 and c3po were anikan's to begin with, what took so long to find out"who's your daddy?"

Well, in Episode IV, Uncle Owen talks about getting the droid's memory erased. So my guess is that at least with 3PO something like that will happen. We may come to find that R2 knew all along who Vader & Luke were (thus the loyalty?) but kept it to himself.

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Oh yea. natalie is a frekn hottie! isnt that supposed to be mentoined with every Geek post?

Natlie Portman! Hot grits!
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[Jessica 0]

OK, I just saw it tonight. And all I have to say is if Natalie Portman didn't want Anakin crawling all up on her, she shouldn't have been wearing those hootchie-mamma clothes.
Also, Yoda is one bad motherfucker.