I hope history does not repeat

[billvon 3,107]

In 1979, the USSR marched into Afghanistan. We decided we wanted them out, so we began supporting opposition groups. From an article on the matter:
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The war in Afghanistan was the stage for one of the last major stand-offs between the two superpowers, the United States and the Soviet Union. The Americans at that time had the same goals as bin Ladin’s mujahedin--the ousting of Soviet troops from Afghanistan. In what was hailed at the time as one of its most successful covert operations, America’s Central Intelligence Agency launched a $500 million-per-year campaign to arm and train the impoverished and outgunned mujahedin guerrillas to fight the Soviet Union. The most promising guerilla leaders were sought out and “sponsored” by the CIA. . . .
Bin Ladin’s group was one of seven main mujahedin factions. It is estimated that a significant quantity of high tech American weapons, including “stinger” anti-aircraft missiles, made their way into his arsenal. The majority of them are reported to be still there.
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It was therefore with some dismay that I read this on the LAtimes site today:
---------------
Key congressional leaders expressed support Sunday for President Bush's bid to oust Saddam Hussein, backing an administration plan that gives the CIA authority to remove the Iraqi leader from power. . . .
Details of the plan were contained in a Washington Post story Sunday that said Bush authorized the CIA last winter to expand its intelligence efforts within Iraq and to provide money, weapons and training to Iraqi opposition forces.
------------------
I hope we are not watching history repeat itself.
-bill von

[freeflir29 0]

Uuummm....while the Russians aren't all warm and cozy to us. I think circumstances are very differen't now. The Russians face more of a threat from the Islamic world than the west does. Apartment bombing that killed 300 in Moscow, Chechnya, etc.......Very differen't from 20 years ago.
"Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[jfields 0]

Clay,
I agree with you that things have changed a lot in the world, but I also think it is true that collectively, we haven't learned a damned thing.
Justin

[lummy 4]

I think the point Bill was trying to make was that we supplied and trained Bin Laden and his forces. further, it is hoped that whomever steps up to the plate to accept the training and arms in Iraq doesn't do the same thingas Bin Laden 20 years later
the INTERNET comes in any color you'd like

[billvon 3,107]

>I think circumstances are very differen't now.
I agree; and they will be very different in 20 years, too. I hope that we are not giving the best arms and training that money can buy to the Iraqi version of Al Quaeda. Because, even if they are friendly to us now, things change.
-bill von

[freeflir29 0]

We are just picking the lesser of two evils. Can't afford to let him stay but we are gambling on the future if we do take him out. There is no good answer.......
"Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[nacmacfeegle 0]

I believe he needs to be 'removed' by his own people.
Otherwise it will a long and bitter campaign whch will be ulimately very costly in terms of human life, and resources.
I actually agree with the CIA's actions on this one, rare for me, I know. But I do share the concern that the resources being applied may bite you back.
But where are the options?
Cya
D
GR# 37
"I don't believe that kindness is a weakness"

[billvon 3,107]

>We are just picking the lesser of two evils. Can't afford to let him stay but we
>are gambling on the future if we do take him out. There is no good answer.......
I agree, but so far, we have not had Hussein attack the US. We have lost ~2000 Americans to an attack by a fanatic terrorist organization that we set up and funded. I hope we bear that in mind as we start supporting a _new_ Arab terrorist organization.
-bill von

[freeflir29 0]

Quote

I agree, but so far, we have not had Hussein attack the US

Uuuummm...so you DON'T think he provides safe harbour and funding for terrorism?
"Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[nws01 0]

Hussein is Insane in the Membrane...Insane in the Brain!
Blue Dreams,
Nathan

[billvon 3,107]

>Uuuummm...so you DON'T think he provides safe harbour and funding for
> terrorism?
I have no doubt that he does - just as we did in Afghanistan twenty years ago, and just as we are now proposing to do (fund terrorists that will drive him from power.) Hard to condemn him for doing the same.
It's all well and good to claim that Palestinian rebels are terrorists, but the US is simply going to use its money to support 'freedom fighters' in Iraq. But keep in mind that this money will be used to kill other Arabs and destroy parts of Iraq; no matter what sort of spin gets put on that, the primary result will be to instill more terror, fear and hatred in that part of the world. And while we seem to be good at that, I think there are better uses of our money and time.
-bill von

[Iflyme 0]

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we haven't learned a damned thing.

I couldn't agree more, Justin.
"There's nothing new under the sun"

[freeflir29 0]

Bill.....I'm still of the mind that peaceful coexistance is impossible...so....I don't think it matters. When we do something we are Imperialist Pigs....when we don't do anything we don't care because they are Muslims. Whatever.....I say make it a Glass parking lot and be done with it. I'm a little on the militaristic side though. "Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[billvon 3,107]

>Bill.....I'm still of the mind that peaceful coexistance is impossible...
I don't think so. We are gradually growing up; our history has, in general, tended towards longer periods of peace. We now have the ability to destroy entire countries halfway around the globe; we haven't used that ability yet, which I see as a very good sign. We're gradually learning not to wreck the environment, not to kill people for no good reason, and to spend our energies behind negotiating tables instead of machine guns. All we have to do is get through adolescence intact.
>When we do something we are Imperialist Pigs....when we don't do anything
>we don't care because they are Muslims.
Who would you rather blow to bits? A country who supplies the rebels that killed your family and destroyed your culture, or a country that doesn't care? Are you currently more annoyed at the Taliban or the government of Togo? I don't think Togo cares much about us, but I don't hate them for that.
-bill von

[freeflir29 0]

Quote

but I don't hate them for that.

I don't either...but tell the Chechens your thoughts..."Here I come to save the BOOBIES!"

[bill2 0]

I don't think so. We are gradually growing up; our history has, in general, tended towards longer periods of peace. We now have the ability to destroy entire countries halfway around the globe; we haven't used that ability yet, which I see as a very good sign. We're gradually learning not to wreck the environment, not to kill people for no good reason, and to spend our energies behind negotiating tables instead of machine guns. All we have to do is get through adolescence intact.
___________________________________________
You're assuming that negotiating with Sadam or any other terrorists will produce beneficial results. Sadam considers negotiating as a form of weakness, he will negotiate to save time in order to build up his forces and weapons not because he really wants peace. I agree with you that the war in Iraq might produce unintended results down the line, but simply going to the negotiating table every time out of the hope that Sadam will change is a waste of time. Unfortunately, people, especially Sadam, respect power above all. Remember all the talk in the press about the "Arab street" and how they were going to explode when we went to war in Afghanastan? And all the media pundits talking about the hardened Taliban and how we would get wiped out in a war over there? the US started slowly, but when it defeated the Taliban/Al Queda so quickly the "Arab street" did not explode and all of a sudden you had nations all over the planet falling over themselves to declare to the US that they were not terrorists. Quite a big change from the beginning when so many Muslims wanted to volunteer to go fight in Afghanstan.
Maybe one day the human race will get out of adolescence, but right now we respect power and it's a mistake to always negotiate. We negotiated after completely defeating Japan and Germany and WWII, and they are our allies now. If we had negotiated partway through the war, we'd still be dealing with Hitler and the emperor.

[billvon 3,107]

>You're assuming that negotiating with Sadam or any other terrorists will produce
> beneficial results.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If it does, great. If not - that's what the UN is for. We should support them; they are the best arbiters for cases like this (and, if it comes to it, enforcers.)
>I agree with you that the war in Iraq might produce unintended results down the
> line, but simply going to the negotiating table every time out of the hope that
> Sadam will change is a waste of time.
While it usually is, it has to be tried first. In many cases, it works - look at the recent success in the Pakistan/Indian dispute. It is not over by any means, but both sides are finally backing down from what could have become a nuclear war.
> the US started slowly, but when it defeated the Taliban/Al Queda so quickly . . .
What??? We defeated Al Quaeda?
"The leadership is still at large. Only six or seven of the 30 senior leaders have been eliminated," says Dr Magnus Ranstorp, deputy director of the Centre for the Study of Terrorism and Political Violence at St Andrews University in Scotland. (BBC)
"Hundreds of Al Qaeda terrorist operatives are hiding in Pakistan's cities after forming or renewing alliances with local Muslim extremist networks that have helped provide safe houses for communications, training and logistics, U.S. officials say. The result, they fear, is that America's closest ally in Central Asia has in effect replaced Afghanistan as a command-and-control center for at least some of Osama bin Laden's terrorist army." (LAtimes, 6/16/02)
Bush has warned us that we will be at war for another several years - in fact, he's said that the war till now "is just the beginning." While we seemed to be very successful at getting Al Quaeda to move, we did not get most of them or even its leader (Bin Laden.) Hard to claim a victory given that.
> . . .all of a sudden you had nations all over the planet falling over themselves to
>declare to the US that they were not terrorists.
Including Pakistan, which seems to be the new Al Quaeda base (unfortunately.) I would think that, in the future, we should model our response more along the lines of how we dealt with Pakistan than how we dealt with Afghanistan.
-bill von

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

Why does Bush announce his plans to "get" people on TV before they actually do it. They want to look for Bin Laden - they put it all over TV - they give him a nice bit of time to hide. The want Saddam - they put it all over TV - they give him a nice chance to hide. Don't mean to flame anyone, it just seems stupid that's all.
Adrenaline Junkie Skydive Monkey

[kallend 2,146]

Quote

Bush has warned us that we will be at war for another several years - in fact, he's said that the war till now "is just the
beginning."

And why not? The "war" is the best thing that happened to his presidency. Until 9/11/01 there was no discernable US foreign policy.

[billvon 3,107]

>Don't mean to flame anyone, it just seems stupid that's all.
Well, this is the same guy who promised to reduce carbon dioxide but meant carbon monoxide, who thought Mexican was a language, and who asked the president of Brazil about blacks: "so you have them here, too?"
No one's perfect; every president we've had has had their drawbacks. Nixon had a problem with obeying the law, Clinton had lots of problems with ethics, Bush isn't quite a rocket scientist. We can't complain too much since we chose him ourselves.
-bill von

[billvon 3,107]

> the US started slowly, but when it defeated the Taliban/Al Queda so quickly . . .
A quote from this Sunday's New York Times that I just came across:
Classified investigations of the Al Qaeda threat now under way at the F.B.I.
and C.I.A. have concluded that the war in Afghanistan failed to diminish the
threat to the United States, the officials said. Instead, the war might have
complicated counterterrorism efforts by dispersing potential attackers
across a wider geographic area.
-bill von

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

We can't complain too much since we chose him ourselves.

Don't look at me.
cielos azules y cerveza fría
-Kevin

[kallend 2,146]

<<>>>
I thought he was chosen by The Supremes.

[FallRate 0]

Quote

I thought he was chosen by The Supremes.

Now what in the hell does Diana Ross have to do with the election!?
FallRate

[FallRate 0]

I don't know what you're getting all worked up about Bill. There's nothing to fear from it, really. Watch...
History (speaking): "Itself, Itself, Itself, Itself, Itself, Itself, Itself"
That wasn't so bad, now was it?
FallRate