bmcd308 0 #26 June 11, 2002 >>I mean, a year ago it would have been inconceivable that some crazies could hijack a bunch of airliners in unison and crash them into our cities<<No it wasn't.If people want to kill us, you or me badly enough, they will do it no matter what. Preemptive law enforcement is only marginally effective at best. It is a crappy realization, but ever since the dawn of man, if one individual or group wants to harm another, they will likely have some measure of success. Sad but true.BMcD...BMcD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #27 June 11, 2002 Wow, good morning, KallendQuoteThe arguments you make are the arguments Hitler and Stalin made.Coming on a little strong about my opinions, don't you think? Equating my thoughts to that of Hitler and Stalin is ludicrous, but since that's your opinion, you're welcome to them. For someone who doesn't know me, my background, my experience, and my thought pattern, you're rather quick to judge me in a manner which is designed to provoke an angry response, etiher via me or others reading this. As I can only speak for myself, I shall say that my referencing the common good is more specifically this: there are about 3000 dead people from 9/11, who died because of a madman named Usama bin Ladin. You may think that your rights supercede those victims, but they don't. And yes, personal happiness and safety is YOUR responsibility; the government is charged with the safety of the nation. You are not the nation. The nation is made up of many individuals, and it is their collective good (welfare) which must be protected. Not the egoism of some in power, not your particular issues, needs and wants; the common welfare the general health and wellbeing of the overall populace. The question is not "what's good for Kallend", but rather "what's good for the protection of the nation as a whole...but that is simply my opinion, and you can think it's Stalinism or Hitlerism if you choose. QuoteMost? How many other countries have you visited Actually, the phrase "diasppeared" comes from the incredible situations in Columbia, Argentina, and other south American nations which literally fight an on-going battle with people who oppose the thought of the government on that particular day (note I didn't stake a position on the right nor wrongness of the government or rebels/terrorists). Furthermore, that was something which was common in the former Soviet Union (which encompasses a huge chunk of the globe). Let's not even talk about China, o.k.? And we won't talk about Iraq's Saddam Hussein who recently killed a bunch of his top military personnel because he was a little scared of some sort of overthrow. That was my reference point, not Germany, nor France (we can discuss those thoughts at another time.) And no, I haven't "visited" those countries per se; that shouldn't invalidate my position, however. You ahve the absolute right to state whatever your opinions are on me, my thought patterns, education, experience, and/or whatever else you so choose. But remember, they are your opinions, and may in fact be utterly wrong. Have a most excellent day, Kallend. And big white puffies for you to fly through!Ciels and Pinks-MicheleLife is what you make it; always was, always will be.~Grandma Moses~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #28 June 11, 2002 Quotethe phrase "diasppeared" comes from the incredible situations in Columbia, Argentina, and other south American nationsUUuuummm.....really you could broaden that a bit to include Everything from Mexico to the tip of South America. The situations change but every country except the US and Canada have had some pretty large insurgency problems at one time or another over the past 40 years. Debateably, you could even include the US in that. The 60 and 70's saw some crazy things going on here. "Here I come to save the BOOBIES!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #29 June 11, 2002 >Coming on a little strong about my opinions, don't you think?No... if you look at the rationale that Hitler and Stalin used to rule with fear in the citizens minds are close to the ones that you were saying. >You may think that your rights supercede those victims, but they don't.I think that all people, citizens or not, have the same rights and when you die, no matter how you die, you give up most those rights.>madman named Usama bin LadinYour version of a "madman" could be the same as some one elses hero. Perception is so key here. I'm not supporting him, but history shows the US could have worked on defusing the situation years ago... but did'nt.If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #30 June 11, 2002 "Perception is so key here"In agreement with Phree, but biting lip, Promised myself, I must not get into this again.........CyaDGR# 37Remember how lucky you are to see and touch the sky; the blind may only dream. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #31 June 11, 2002 QuoteThe arguments you make are the arguments Hitler and Stalin made.WooHoo! Goodwins law at last!See here: http://members.tripod.com/~goodwin_2/law.html_AmICQ: 5578907MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com AIM: andrewdmetcalfeYahoo IM: ametcalf_1999 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #32 June 11, 2002 QuoteWooHoo! Goodwins law at last!OK....thats funny!!! "Here I come to save the BOOBIES!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #33 June 11, 2002 Without getting into the depths of this debate other than to say I lean towards Bill's viewpoint, one thing struck me as very strange about this particular event.Why was it necessary to call an emergency press conference in Moscow to announce that an American citizen was arrested a month ago? Seems to me that there is an agenda here that has absolutely nothing to do with protecting our citizenry and more about protecting the reputations and jobs of certain government officials.Saw an interesting news clip the other day where they interviewed a sporting goods store owner. The FBI requested that he report the names of anyone who buys a kodiak boat. Seems like we're getting closer and closer to the "bad old times" of the late 40's and 50's.Then there's the fact that Bush made statements regarding our new foreign policy and how we plan to occupy any territory that has a contingency of suspected terrorists and root them out before they have a chance to act (a policy that doesn't appear to be working well for Israel and which we've condemned). Subsequently several NATO and UN allies have stated that if we proceed in such a manner, they will condemn our actions. Bush's response was basically that he doesn't care and he'll do what he wants. Ok...I said this would be short so I'll stop my rant now.cielos azules y cerveza fría-Kevin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #34 June 11, 2002 "Bush's response was basically that he doesn't care and he'll do what he wants"Hmmm......having bitten through lip, tongue is next to go......Bleeding on keyboard, agreeing with Billvon and Phillykev.....CyaDGR# 37Remember how lucky you are to see and touch the sky; the blind may only dream. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #35 June 11, 2002 QuoteThen there's the fact that Bush made statements regarding our new foreign policy and how we plan to occupy any territory that has a contingency of suspected terrorists and root them out before they have a chance to actI'm sure that if you come up with a better plan everyone will listen...."Here I come to save the BOOBIES!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #36 June 11, 2002 Wolf Grulkey just sent this to me.... See attachmentYa' know Smack-water Jack he bought a shotgun'cause he was in the mood for a little con-fron-ta-tion Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #37 June 11, 2002 >I'm sure that if you come up with a better plan everyone will listen....Stay out of other people's politics. Stop selling arms to Israel. Stop fighting wars to protect our oil. Deal with other nations through the UN, rather than through F-14's. Stop giving tons of weapons and millions of dollars to people like Bin Laden. Stop setting up puppet governments, and supporting rebellions in other countries. Let people fight their own wars, and make peace on their own terms. Use our military force to defend our country, not set foreign policy.-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #38 June 11, 2002 >contingency of suspected terrorists and root them out before they have a chance to actWe better ship troops out to Ireland, Sudan, Algeria, Cambodia, Korea, France, Egypt, the entire Middle East, most the Pac-Asia region, most of South America, Africa, Russia, and finally the entire United States.If someone tries to overthrow the government, to the government they are terrorists, to the supporters... they are freedom fighters. Does this mean in countries where US funded "groups" are we will be occupying too? Or are we only going to invade if its thought that only US intrests are at risk currently, how about in the future?I'm suddenly remembering a quote that is kinda fitting here... Who's the more foolish... the fool or the fool who follows him? ~ Obi Wan Kenobi If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallRate 0 #39 June 11, 2002 QuoteThere are Al Quaeda prisoners in Germany right now that the Germans won't extradite because they haven't been assured that the USA will treat them properly.Speaking of the Germans, my girlfriends brother was on leave from the Army last month--he's been stationed in Germany--and he was describing how violent the German police are when dealing with unruly club crowds. Basically, if you are within arm's reach of them you can expect to be beaten bloody with an electric baton then zip-tied to the nearest tree, street sign, car bumper or whatever else they find handy and hope you don't bleed to death. He made the point that if the police are called in Germany, you really need to start running and get the hell our of their way.FallRate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #40 June 11, 2002 Wow Bill.....I'm glad you weren't in charge during the Cold War. We would be all safe and snug under communist rule about now after it crept right up to our borders through South and Central America. In fact....I would be willing to bet that the entire world would be living under dictatorial rule with an isolationist policy like that. I think America tried that already. Look where it got us in World War I and II. You go ahead and negotiate with a T-64 as it plows through your house. Impossible you say? "Here I come to save the BOOBIES!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #41 June 11, 2002 >Wow Bill.....I'm glad you weren't in charge during the Cold War. We would be> all safe and snug under communist rule about now . . .Hmm . . . you will have to remind me which epic battle turned the tide and won us the cold war, and what the terms of the USSR's surrender were.>Look where it got us in World War I and II.We won. Do you dislike that outcome?>You go ahead and negotiate with a T-64 as it plows through your house.> Impossible you say? Not at all impossible, and that's why we need a strong military - to stop said T-64. Why do you think we need to do the same to other people (plow through houses with M-1's, or sell other people M-1's to do that) to defend the US?-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #42 June 11, 2002 Also bear in mind the Munich Olympic bombings, the Baader Meinhoff, and Black September groups......Not to mention The Red Brigades, the Basque separatists ETA. and that old chestnut the IRA.Terrorism is nothing new in Europe, ergo we have a less than tolerant attitude towards bad guys..The German Police do a good job, they are used to running street battles with soccer hooligans, and severe civil disorder during 'Political' marches.They can manage effectively large peace loving crowds, the Love parade in Germany last summer was kicking, and probably the largest ever dance festival in Europe. No riots, no riot police.I seem to recall seeing old footage of some unpleasant police action in Americas deep south during the Martin Luther King era......And does the name Rodney King mean anything to you guys......Oh and everything Billvon said, I've been burned for mentioning here before......Dayumm, I swore I would stay out of this......Why can't we all just get along with each other?CyaDGR# 37Remember how lucky you are to see and touch the sky; the blind may only dream. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #43 June 11, 2002 QuoteAnd does the name Rodney King mean anything to you guys......If I ran from the Police at speeds in excess of 120MPH and then failed to do anything the Cops asked when they finally did catch me......I would pretty much expect an ass whoopin .... "Here I come to save the BOOBIES!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #44 June 11, 2002 point taken.CyaDGR# 37Remember how lucky you are to see and touch the sky; the blind may only dream. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallRate 0 #45 June 11, 2002 QuoteAnd does the name Rodney King mean anything to you guys......Glad you mentioned him. The interesting thing about the Rodney King case was that the vast majority of the country believed that it was excessive and unwarranted violence. So much so that the Federal government indicted the officers after they had already been tried in a court of law and found to be not guilty, which was a violation of the officers' rights to avoid double jeopardy. Point being, we do as a society take very seriously the rights of individuals.In the current case we do have individuals (ACLU) challenging the governments decision to detain a US citizen without filing a formal charge. The government will always abuse its power if allowed to do so. Luckily we live in a country that allows us the opportunity to challenge the government's actions.FallRate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #46 June 11, 2002 Isolationism is not the answer, but neither is manipulating foreign governments purely for our own best interest. Theres a balance that needs to be sought, and right now we're on the other extreme of isolationism. For instance, we support monarchs in the middle east. It's one thing when we get involved to help support the freedom and civil rights of the people in another nation and to prevent the spread of denial of those rights from approaching our borders. It's quite another matter to prop up a dictator or monarch so that they promise to give us cheap oil.cielos azules y cerveza fría-Kevin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #47 June 11, 2002 Aha, you see in civilsed countries like Scotland, we can return a verdict of not proven, which means we can retry bad guys later on regardless......CyaDGR# 37Remember how lucky you are to see and touch the sky; the blind may only dream. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallRate 0 #48 June 11, 2002 Ahh, we have much the same in the States. A hung jury (a variation of not proven) can result in a retrial. But in this case the jury returned a unanimous verdict of not-guilty in the first trial. It's not entirely the same, but it does allow for the fact that if every member of a jury believes that the case has not been proven, which is what a jury does--they do not rule on innocence, innocence is assumed--then it is believed that it would put an innocent person at undue risk to face the charge again with a new group of jurors.FallRate Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #49 June 11, 2002 We can deliver the 'not proven' verdict, and then revisit the trial at some stage in the future, its kinda "we know you did it, we think your guilty, we just can't prove it" thingCyaDGR# 37Remember how lucky you are to see and touch the sky; the blind may only dream. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #50 June 11, 2002 QuoteWe can deliver the 'not proven' verdict, and then revisit the trial at some stage in the future, its kinda "we know you did it, we think your guilty, we just can't prove it" thingThat sounds scary. What you're describing sounds like double jeopardy. Here, if there's not enough evidence that a judge thinks a conviction is plausible, there's no trial. If more evidence is found, then authorities can re-arrest that sucker and haul him into court. Look at that Cherry dude who bombed the church in the '60s; look at the Kennedy cousin who bludgeoned that girl. It happens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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