Canopy Nazi Rant!

[billvon 3,112]

>I didn't say I can't control it.. You know what I meant.. It is
>easier "for me" to land a canopy loaded at 1.0 than .07.

No problem, but just because you can't land a large canopy well (or have more difficulty doing so) does not mean they are more difficult to land. We have several AFF-JM's who jump student rigs when they have back to back loads. They can land a Manta on a dime, spin it in midair with almost no altitude loss, turn 180 at 20 feet and land with no problem etc. I suspect you would be able to as well if you were willing to put in the time to learn to fly them. As with anything, competence requires practice.

The big issue for students is that, if you make a mistake, there is less chance of injury under a larger parachute.

>Don't you think the flare is less forgiving "precise" on a canopy
> loaded at .7 than a canopt at 1.2 for example??

Absolutely not. A Tri at .7 has a far more forgiving flare than a Tri at 1.2.

>Personally I think it is dangerous to load a canopy too lightly..

If you go below the canopy manufacturer's recommendations then I would agree. Most people do not.

> And I agree, you shouldn't be jumping in high winds anyways but
> people do anyways. So ignorance should be considered..

I agree.

[billvon 3,112]

>That is the most useful piece of information I've seen in this thread.
> I'm pretty sure that the canopy design is far more important than >the size, or even the material (F111 or ZP).

I disagree. A Stiletto 190 is considerably slower/easier to handle/easier to land than a Triathalon 120.

>I typically jump canopies loaded around .6-.75. I'm pretty sure that
> if I could get high performance canopy at that loading, it'd still fly a
> whole lot faster and "swoopier" than my canopies.

Give it a try; I think you'd be suprised. The ultimate test would be a Silhouette 170 (a canopy _designed_ for higher performance at larger sizes) vs something like a Sabre-I 135. I think you will find that the Sabre is still the faster and less forgiving canopy.

Design certainly has something to do with performance. Size, though, is generally more significant.

[quade 4]

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Size, though, is generally more significant.

Any ladies care to comment on this?

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Zenister 0]

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Is this crazy?

I feel just as confident flying and landing the original Sabre 170 as I do the Skymaster 290s and 230s that I learned on. I don't feel as confident on the Sabre2.

So where the hell was I going with this? At a 1.1:1 wingloading, it depends on the canopy, at least for me. I probably wouldn't buy a Sabre2 170 right now but I am seriously considering a used Sabre 170. It's plenty fast and responsive enough for me, but I am completely comfortable flying and landing it.

Err, this post sucks. Distill whatever usefull information you can.

actually that is the EXACT question i've been wondering
i've been jumping a SabreII 190 (rental) and will be jumping a Sabre 190 (mine horray) what differences could you say you've noticed, flight/landing wise?
(i'm told the opennings could smack me on occasion)

more docile isnt a bad thing for me right now
I've stood up most (but not all) of my landings but still have much to learn

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[indyz 1]

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actually that is the EXACT question i've been wondering
i've been jumping a SabreII 190 (rental) and will be jumping a Sabre 190 (mine horray) what differences could you say you've noticed, flight/landing wise?
(i'm told the opennings could smack me on occasion)

Not a lot of time to answer, I'm late for work.

With only 2 jumps on each: Sabre2 definately turns and flies faster. Openings are quite a bit softer on the Sabre2. Sabre2 requires a two stage flare, while the Sabre that I jumped didn't plane out at all.

It is important to note that the Sabre I jumped was made in the early to mid 90s, while the Sabre2 was just bought this season.

[Michele 1]

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Any ladies care to comment on this?

I, for one, am very happy with it's size. It's large enough to penetrate, yet is still nice enough for me to play with as long as I want. It lets me try all sorts of things I never would with a smaller one (for fear of it's faster response time), and, at least for me, experimentation is the key. While occasionally I want a hard, fast one, mostly I am content to let it take it's time, with minimal input from me, as it gently takes me to the heavens. It is sturdy enough to take me through the most intense turbulence I have dared, and sets me back on my feet with care after the ride is over. It is not in a hurry for everything to be over, and takes a long time to package up after it's laying, exhausted, at my feet. And it is ready to go again as soon as I massage and manipulate it into the proper position, sweating and working and earning my ride...

Yesh, size matters.....

(oh, BTW, rhino? I appreciate all the advice you've given. I am learning all the things NOT to do...)

Ciels and Pinks-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[quade 4]

Ok, THAT was funny as hell. Thanks.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Scoby 0]

I'm curious about how I should progress on rental gear before purchasing. I've decided that I'd like a 190 for my first canopy, which is just under 1:1 for me. I am currently jumping PD260s. I should complete the requirements for my A license tomorrow, so I'll finally get to go to other DZs. My dropzone rents by the jump instead of the day, so it's expensive. I'm going to take a canopy class right away and then spend some time at DZs that rent by the day so I can get my experience level up without breaking the bank. How should I go about transitioning from 260 F111 to 190 ZP? Should I go straight to a big ZP chute and then downsize? Or jump F111 canopies until I get to 190, then switch? Should I stick to square, or is semi-elliptical OK? How many jumps should I do on each size, or should I just jump until I'm comfortable? I've seen billvons canopy control recommendations and they look good, but I'd like a ballpark figure. Sorry, I know I have a lot of questions. It's not that I'm in a hurry to downsize. Once I get my first canopy, I won't be downsizing for a long, long time. I just want to have my own gear, in as short a timeframe as possible.

[PhillyKev 0]

I'm in no way an expert on this (yes, it's a freakin' disclaimer), but I'm the only one left at work and bored as hell so I'm responding to anything.

Anyway, my personal opinion and what I did off student status was basically limit changes to one at a time. In other words, you're on a 260 F111 now. So next go one smaller, or go zp, but not both (if possible). Don't downsize and switch to semi-elliptical. Downsize on a familiar planform first, then try out a different design after you're comfortable with that. In other words, as long as you take baby steps in terms of the changes you are making, the exact path you take probably doesn't matter much.

[DENGOPHER 0]

hi lisa,
first off i want to say i love you for all the help and advice you have given me.. thank you !!! it helped me make better choices on gear.. i think it is great that you try to help out the newbies.. i hope that when you give them the low down on certain things they start comparing notes do their home work and check things out and make an educated choice.. it may save their life!!! again thanks lisa you rock girl!!!
just jump!!!!
gopher

[billvon 3,112]

>basically limit changes to one at a time.

Good advice. I'd also add that you make sure that you can do all the basic canopy manuevers (stalls, flat/flare turns, rear riser landings, crosswind landings, front riser HP landings and of course 100% standups) before you go on to the next step, whether the next step is a ZP, or smaller canopy, or an elliptical.

[CanopyNazi 0]

lol

Can I take a hint?? Sure..
Sangiro said get back in if I could find a way. I see plenty of ways. It is kind of fun actually..

He invited me to take a crack at it so here I am..

Rhino

[nws01 0]

Rhino,

You call yourself a skydiver. Part of this sport is respect for the sport and for the people involved. You do not have this so you have pissed a lot of people off. Please grow up and undserstand this. You find enjoyment in coming to this site and doing what people have asked you kindly not to do.

You also take great pride in your military background. Did you get released because of your actions? If so did you follow the Colonel home and annoy the hell out of him all the time?

HH is the "President" of this website. If you do not do what he says you are not welcomed in "our country." If you are a "terrorist" we will in fact find a way to discontinue your existence. Please follow his wishes and stop. Or, we will hunt you down and smoke you out of your cave and eliminate you!

Understand?

[CanopyNazi 0]

Anytime you feel man enough Nathan.. I'll show you what being a Marine is all about.. Big guy...

You dare insult my military background.. do you have any? I did nothing on this site other than have a backbone and not kiss ass like yourself. The people for the most part that don't like me "not that I care" are spineless jerks anyways.. I won't lose sleep trust me..

If you feel like hunting me down I RELISH the opportunity to make a fool of you.. Idiot..

Understand??

Peace,,,

Rhino

[VectorBoy 0]

Sorry Lisa its really tough balancing sales with giving advice to someone you don't know or have seen fly, over the phone. You are doing the right thing.
The reality of this situation is that this individual needs to rent various non-ellipptical lightly loaded canopies and or get MORE canopy coaching until he is stand up landing a much higher percentage of his landings BEFORE he ever calls you. And its tough convincing this guy of that with tact.
I have an issue with even semi- elliptical canopies be marketed as entry level. And I have only heard of one other person who is a dealer second that. I couldn't answer that without watching someone's flare in person.

[bbarnhouse 0]

"Jane you ignorant slut".........oh no that's not it!
Ummmmmm ummmm "Go ahead make my day!" nooo that's not it........ how about DONE?
Yeah That's it!!!!!

[Michele 1]

Hey, Rhino?

You're an asshole. Yeah, personal attack, so what? Whatcha gonna do to me?

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Anytime you feel man enough Nathan.. I'll show you what being a Marine is all about.. Big guy...

You wouldn't know what a man was, let alone a Marine. Your attitude sucks, your behavior is atrocious, and you think you impress people with your paltry little salad bar and uniform? Get real. A real man wouldn't be responding in the manner you did. Only a threatened little boy, scared of his shadow, desperate for control because his life is lacking any. You are a child.

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I did nothing on this site other than have a backbone and not kiss ass like yourself.

I'm willing to bet a dollar that Nathan is a far better jumper than you will ever be. Why? Because he doesn't let his overinflated ego get in the way of his safety. Nor does he let his pride and "manhood" get in the way of canopy selection and use. Your concept of "backbone" is dictatorial and idiotic, not to mention dangerous to yourself and to others. You have a serious problem with listening to people who have far more experience than you - not just in skydiving but in life, as well. You have a serious problem with respect - both self and otherwise - and it shows. In your braggadocio you hide, not able nor willing to listen to your betters...and that is most people here. As for kissing ass, how is showing respect ass kissing? 'Tis far better to kiss a little ass and learn from other people than the route you're going.

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The people for the most part that don't like me "not that I care" are spineless jerks anyways.. I won't lose sleep trust me..

Most egocentric assholes like yourself express the same sentiments. Obviously you don't care. Furthermore, some of the people who don't "like" you don't like you for a hugely valid reason - your ego, your arrogance, your know-it-all behavior. Not because they are spineless jerks, let me tell you. I know some of these people, and they are some of the strongest people around. You, "sir", are the spineless jerk, which is why your ego is so fucking overlarge. Or are you compensating for something which is far smaller than your ego? Flying skills, perhaps???

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If you feel like hunting me down I RELISH the opportunity to make a fool of you.. Idiot..

You are doing well of making a fool of yourself, jackass. Nathan did nothing more than say what a lot of us are thinking. Let me tell you something: you ever show up near me, I won't share airtime with you - not even getting on the same plane as you. Jump karma. You are a dangerous idiot, an accident waiting to happen. You are a whining brat, unwilling and unable to listen to your betters - and, as stated, most are your betters. You dispense advice to people who are too new to know better, and I sincerely hope that the bones you may break are your own, and not someone who's read your bullshit and taken it seriously.

You know nothing - nothing about being a man, a skydiver, or a father. As you have been asked to stay away from the forums, show a little respect for the person who runs this place, and go away - far away, never to show your trolling little wart-infested obsessive face around here again. And if you e-mail me or pm me, it will become public, immediately. "Understand??"

Threatening both HH and Nathan is the wrong thing to do. Unimpressive, laughable, and beyond pity - you are an asshole.

[sangiro 26]

Rhino,

Smart people know when they've overstayed their welcome. Stupid ones keep on bashing their heads against the wall. We all believe you're a smart guy. Do yourself a favor and stop trying to get back in. You are just going to continue to look more and more silly and desperate... if that's at all possible! It takes me one click every time to get rid of you.

When I said, try to get back in, I meant see if you can mend the fences, not try to patronize me even more with silly little games.

Safe swoops
Sangiro