LawnDart21 0 #1 July 10, 2002 At 523 jumps, I made my first demo jump on Saturday July 6th into the Pepperell 4th of July Town Day celebration. There was only a crowd of about 200 people, but from 1000ft, they looked like a huge crowd....lol.....I flew in right over the top of the crowd, then at about 400 ft, grabbed my left riser, cranked a 180, planed out just as I passed over the plastic retaining fence for the crowd and landed the sickest surf I have made to date, carving it along the fence line. I stood there when I finished and thought to myself "so much for sinking it in....lol" as I had planned to while at 3000ft, but I got caught up in the power of the moment. What a jump, I'll never forget that one. At one point, while I was swung out and about 200ft above the fence line, I thought "Uh oh, I may have to dig this one out.....", but then I said to myself, "nope, your on, trust the canopy, don't panic, just fly the canopy" and I did, and it was as close to perfection as I have ever come with my swooping. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pop 0 #2 July 10, 2002 BEER!!!7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #3 July 10, 2002 Quote"so much for sinking it in....lol" as I had planned to while at 3000ft Glad it went well. Just keep in mind that this sort of thinking has killed more than one Demo jumper over the years. Be careful.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hobbes4star 0 #4 July 10, 2002 congratsif fun were easy it wouldn't be worth having, right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #5 July 10, 2002 I did my FIRST on the 4th... (bought beer, and still buyin') Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #6 July 10, 2002 I hear ya, the thought was there from the beginning. Originally I was gonna put my old Sabre 150 back in my container and jump that, but I reasoned I had like 50+ jumps in a row on the Cobalt 135 I have in there now, and I was dialed in on the Cobalt. Atleast I could predict how it would react better than the Sabre, which I hadn't jumped in 200+ jumps. The landing area was two outfields from two opposing baseball diamonds, so I had plenty of room to surf it out. I have spent the last 40 consecutive jumps on the Cobalt, applying harness turns to my hooks, both positive and negative turns, to feel out the canopy, so if nothing else, atleast when I was coming out of the dive I was confident that I was going to be able to place the canopy where I wanted it. GOD I LOVE THIS SPORT! -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,119 #7 July 10, 2002 >At one point, while I was swung out and about 200ft above the fence > line, I thought "Uh oh, I may have to dig this one out.....", but then > I said to myself, "nope, your on, trust the canopy, don't panic, just > fly the canopy" and I did, and it was as close to perfection as I have > ever come with my swooping. >I stood there when I finished and thought to myself "so much for > sinking it in . . ." I'm glad it worked out. However, doing a hook turn over a crowd of people not only puts yourself at risk, it puts spectators at risk - and they cannot be put at risk. They didn't sign up for risking their lives for a cool landing. You could have killed people if you screwed up. Heck, you could have killed people if something as minor as a broken or dropped toggle happened - and that has killed spectators during demos. Even in a demo setting hook turns can be done safely - if they are practiced at the site ahead of time, the outs are such that you can bail at any time and not come near anyone, and there's enough leeway that you will not take out a spectator if you break a toggle, line or riser. If that was the case, great, but it sounds like it wasn't. Sorry to sound like a wet blanket, but demos are not like any other skydive. They are a place where the general public and skydiving meet, and must be approached with both caution and a great deal of planning. They can be safe if planned well and executed carefully; they can be disasters if sites are not surveyed, crowds are not controlled, plans are changed midway through, and flight paths not planned and carefully adhered to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #8 July 10, 2002 Quote Sorry to sound like a wet blanket, but demos are not like any other skydive. They are a place where the general public and skydiving meet, and must be approached with both caution and a great deal of planning. They can be safe if planned well and executed carefully; they can be disasters if sites are not surveyed, crowds are not controlled, plans are changed midway through, and flight paths not planned and carefully adhered to. I agree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #9 July 10, 2002 Wet Blanket! Just kidding Bill. Signal recieved, zero distortion. I get the message. To be honest though, it's hard to explain without a picture of the site, but had a toggle broke, etc, yes I would have put a big ole dent in teh ground, but where I came down there was fence, but no people in that one area under me, so had I crashed or got cought in the corner, I wouldn't have hit anyone. Again, I hear what your saying. I ain't arguing with your logic. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #10 July 10, 2002 I just think back to that guy in the fatality reports. He was on downwind doing a beach demo and yelled for everyone to get out of the way. At which time he promptly hooked himself into the ground and died on the spot. That kinda puts a damper on demos. Or another guy that was doing a demo on Ft Bragg. He didn't die but he did kinda look like an ass when he plowed into a bunch of (luckily unoccupied) folding chairs and broke his wrist. Or the great Skymonkeyone (Sorry to dog you dude) that was demoing and broke his ass under his wife's Stilletto. Just saying...be cautious. It's a hell of a lot more cool to make a nice easy landing and walk away with your dignity and bones intact. Anyway...enough doom and gloom....Hope you bought good beer and drank many!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sebazz1 2 #11 July 10, 2002 Congratulations on your demo!! They are a blast. Just be safe and remember that the general public has no idea what is a cool landing or not. For all they know you just exited an aircraft and landed. So inn general it is better to jump a large canopy and keep things uneventful. After all we need to give whuffos the right impression so they don't come trying to shut our sport down. Again.......Super congrats!! Demos are definately a rush Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnnyD 0 #12 July 10, 2002 This seems to be an issue of control to me. You went on a demo with a specific landing plan that included sinking a straight in approach. You did not exhibit enough control over yourself to stick to the plan and ended up doing a 180 hook over the crowd. If I did that on a demo, I would reasonably expect to never do another demo in this lifetime. If you can't control yourself due to the "power of the moment", you should not ever do another demo. If an AFF student could not control himself acceptably, he would never be cleared for self supervision. We are all students all over again on our first demo jump, but we don't have the luxury or the expectation of substandard performance. We will all pay the price for the stupid actions of those who have been deemed worthy to represent us in a public arena. This time we were all lucky. We should not have to rely on luck in these situations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LawnDart21 0 #13 July 10, 2002 Re: JohnnyD I was the preselected 1st one down, and was given the go ahead to land however I wanted by the organizer. The others on the jump, all experienced demo jumpers, 2 with 4000+ jumps each and 30 years of demo experience, one is a former Golden Knight demo jumper, they all congratulated me on the landing and said it was fine. I would take their word over your 600+ jump experience every day and twice on Sunday. So you don't agree with my landing or with my thought process, fine, but don't go flaming me like a holier than though jumper. This sport is about self expression, swoop or no swoop, I put no one at risk, but myself, no different than any other landing. My "sink it in" thought was a personal decision, that I changed as I came in, no big deal. Go preach elsewhere. Take a lesson from BillVon, if you have practical criticism, give in a constructive manner, if it;s just bitching to sound like your the man, then by all means, eat me. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Iflyme 0 #14 July 10, 2002 ya, for sure a demo is different. I know a *former* jumper who burned in on his last demo, rather than go into the crowd. Got busted up good, and doesn't jump anymore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #15 July 10, 2002 Quoteya, for sure a demo is different. I know a *former* jumper who burned in on his last demo, rather than go into the crowd. Got busted up good, and doesn't jump anymore. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few; or the one." Spock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #16 July 10, 2002 QuoteSo you don't agree with my landing or with my thought process, fine, but don't go flaming me like a holier than though jumper. Go preach elsewhere. Take a lesson from BillVon, if you have practical criticism, give in a constructive manner, if it;s just bitching to sound like your the man, then by all means, eat me. I don't see that post as flaming you; I saw it as his opinion on what you said you did. OTOH, telling someone to "eat me" could very well be considered a flame and/or a personal attack. Perhaps your last post would have been better as a private message. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #17 July 10, 2002 >I put no one at risk Actually, by flying over the crowd you did. Setting up a hook increased the risk to the crowd. Had you came up high in your approach did you have enough outs to make a stand up landing in complete view of the spectators while not flying at them or over them? If you had came up short in the hook would you have had the same outs? A good demo jumper knows when to chose the right equipment for the job. I was talking to a demo team about a stadium jump they just did and learned a lot from them. I've done enough ground crew to know that on 99% of demos with a crowd the bigger the canopy, the better the demo will go. The crowd could care less if you jump a 88 VX into a staduim if you stumble and can't land on the dime that you need to. Also you stand to make the rest of the team look bad if they sink it in and hit the disk and you were able to swoop all the way across a football field, tag the dics on the way by and they could'nt do the same under their Startracs. Granted the people I'm learning from only have 15000 jumps, 42 years jumping 40 years of demo jumps, 3500 jumps, 7 years jumping and 1000 jumps 5 years jumping. A demo jump is'nt just another Jump at the DZ, its a whole mind frame difference... if you can't do the switch, I'd stop doing demos until you can.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #18 July 10, 2002 Geez...give the guy a break. He has a few jumps and made a decision. He probably knows it wasn't "The smartest" one he could have made. People made their criticisms. Leave it at that. No need to flame. 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JohnnyD 0 #12 July 10, 2002 This seems to be an issue of control to me. You went on a demo with a specific landing plan that included sinking a straight in approach. You did not exhibit enough control over yourself to stick to the plan and ended up doing a 180 hook over the crowd. If I did that on a demo, I would reasonably expect to never do another demo in this lifetime. If you can't control yourself due to the "power of the moment", you should not ever do another demo. If an AFF student could not control himself acceptably, he would never be cleared for self supervision. We are all students all over again on our first demo jump, but we don't have the luxury or the expectation of substandard performance. We will all pay the price for the stupid actions of those who have been deemed worthy to represent us in a public arena. This time we were all lucky. We should not have to rely on luck in these situations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #13 July 10, 2002 Re: JohnnyD I was the preselected 1st one down, and was given the go ahead to land however I wanted by the organizer. The others on the jump, all experienced demo jumpers, 2 with 4000+ jumps each and 30 years of demo experience, one is a former Golden Knight demo jumper, they all congratulated me on the landing and said it was fine. I would take their word over your 600+ jump experience every day and twice on Sunday. So you don't agree with my landing or with my thought process, fine, but don't go flaming me like a holier than though jumper. This sport is about self expression, swoop or no swoop, I put no one at risk, but myself, no different than any other landing. My "sink it in" thought was a personal decision, that I changed as I came in, no big deal. Go preach elsewhere. Take a lesson from BillVon, if you have practical criticism, give in a constructive manner, if it;s just bitching to sound like your the man, then by all means, eat me. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #14 July 10, 2002 ya, for sure a demo is different. I know a *former* jumper who burned in on his last demo, rather than go into the crowd. Got busted up good, and doesn't jump anymore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #15 July 10, 2002 Quoteya, for sure a demo is different. I know a *former* jumper who burned in on his last demo, rather than go into the crowd. Got busted up good, and doesn't jump anymore. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few; or the one." Spock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #16 July 10, 2002 QuoteSo you don't agree with my landing or with my thought process, fine, but don't go flaming me like a holier than though jumper. Go preach elsewhere. Take a lesson from BillVon, if you have practical criticism, give in a constructive manner, if it;s just bitching to sound like your the man, then by all means, eat me. I don't see that post as flaming you; I saw it as his opinion on what you said you did. OTOH, telling someone to "eat me" could very well be considered a flame and/or a personal attack. Perhaps your last post would have been better as a private message. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #17 July 10, 2002 >I put no one at risk Actually, by flying over the crowd you did. Setting up a hook increased the risk to the crowd. Had you came up high in your approach did you have enough outs to make a stand up landing in complete view of the spectators while not flying at them or over them? If you had came up short in the hook would you have had the same outs? A good demo jumper knows when to chose the right equipment for the job. I was talking to a demo team about a stadium jump they just did and learned a lot from them. I've done enough ground crew to know that on 99% of demos with a crowd the bigger the canopy, the better the demo will go. The crowd could care less if you jump a 88 VX into a staduim if you stumble and can't land on the dime that you need to. Also you stand to make the rest of the team look bad if they sink it in and hit the disk and you were able to swoop all the way across a football field, tag the dics on the way by and they could'nt do the same under their Startracs. Granted the people I'm learning from only have 15000 jumps, 42 years jumping 40 years of demo jumps, 3500 jumps, 7 years jumping and 1000 jumps 5 years jumping. A demo jump is'nt just another Jump at the DZ, its a whole mind frame difference... if you can't do the switch, I'd stop doing demos until you can.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #18 July 10, 2002 Geez...give the guy a break. He has a few jumps and made a decision. He probably knows it wasn't "The smartest" one he could have made. People made their criticisms. Leave it at that. No need to flame. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
