Rdutch 0 #1 July 11, 2002 Ok heres the Question: Are team videographers Team members? If they are paid by the team or if they pay their own way does that make a difference? Or what about the coaches, packers ect. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #2 July 11, 2002 1 it is really easy so the 4 way team actually uses more skill, however missing points because video guy screwed up or exited early/late screws the whole team. 2. If local teams are serious (going to nationals) they usually pay the vieographers slot. and that videographer is expected to have back up gear in case of failure (cameras, rigs). 3. fun teams...anything goes. 4. freefly teams (3 way) usually the vidoegrapher has so much work to do as far as fall rate and artisitc camera angles that they are actual team members. RW video guys are easy to pick up, you can find them sitting around at nationals looking for teams "Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hottamaly 1 #3 July 11, 2002 Skydiving gave me a reason to live I'm not afraid of what I'll miss when I die...I'm afraid of what I'll miss as I live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymama 37 #4 July 11, 2002 I think what Ray wants your opinion on, is do you think the videographer should get any or equal recognition that the team gets? And, would your answer make a difference if he was paid or not? Also, if the videographers are recognized for their hard work, should the coaches and the packers of the teams be recognized too? He was talking to me about this before he went offline, so I'm just trying to clarify it for your answers.She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man, because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #5 July 11, 2002 You mean its not a guy in the plane filming the jump? hehe--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stacy 0 #6 July 11, 2002 i like to try and make the videographer feel as integrated to the team as possible. Video is not as easy as it may seem, it's just as easy to get a vid bust as it is to get a bust on a block move or missed grip. When a team has a steady video person for an entire season, it's easier to feel like 5 teammates, as you do spend a lot of time with each other. When a team is using different people for each meet this is harder. Videographers get medals too at meets for their work, should travel with the team, participate in phone ocnferences, even pop in teh tunnel a bit if they like. it's only fair, they are sacrificing thier time too. Last season the team I jumped with picked up slots and pack jobs for our videographer. We were a fairly low key team, out to learn about 4way and have fun. Our videographer was new to video and 4way video. Everyone was learning, he didn't want anything beyond the jumps/packs. If a bust was his fault he picked up the slack for it. This season we pay our videographer, as well as slots and packs. the camera fliers are more experienced, and the goals of my group this year are a little higher than last season. ie- i think it depends on the level of the videographer and team's goals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #7 July 11, 2002 SCM 5-1.3: TEAM COMPOSITION A. 4-Way: Each team may consist of up to six members, including a videographer, but is eliminated from competition if, for any reason, it is cut to three or fewer members and a videographer. IMO, the videographer is a member of the team. You can't compete without them, and if you want consistantly judgable video you need to use the same one regularly... the same cannot be said for coaches and packers, although they are definitely a benifit to training and competing well. You can pick up video people (and other jumpers for that matter) @ nationals, but there will be issues if you don't get in some jumps before hand (exits will be the most noticable), and unless you know the videographer, you don't know what you are going to get... As for the pay issue, there is a lot of $$$ in those helmets and suits, and not everyone is willing or able to fly camera (its not just falling straight down)... Bottom line for me is... if you don't want to consider them a team member, or pay them, find one that you don't need to, and take what you get... but remember their not part of your team so don't expect them to show up on time, show up when its raining, and don't yell at them for screwing up, because they were just doing you a favor. If you treat them as part of the team, you should be able to expect the same things you expect out any other team member... be there on time, do their part, etc... Just my opinion. JoshAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #8 July 12, 2002 Quote . . . it is really easy so . . . Don't jump a lot of 4-way camera? Check out THIS THREAD. There might be a bit more to it than you realize.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ditch9276 0 #9 July 12, 2002 Yep they´re Teammembers without them you´ll always have 0 points!!!!The only rings that are worth wearing, are those of my 3-ring-system!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #10 July 12, 2002 First of all the camera flyer is the guy thay can make or break a team. He/she is an equal and intergral part of the team, not a wheel, and deserving of greater respect (IMHO) Here is an example of what not to do.(names omitted) A team ranking first in their home country was practicing at a DZ other than their own. They "let go" their camera flyer from their own country and picked up a new one........one month later they "let go" this new camera flyer , he was too expensive and begged around for another, and another. Rather than taking responsibility and working with the new ones, they kept changing their camera flyer. They went to compete in their own Nationals and guess what? Camera bust! They came in second. I think there is a lesson here. There is no me or I in team My camera flyer is an equal contributing partner. Man am I lucky.....he can even make me look good Cheers!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #11 July 15, 2002 The reason I asked this is I had an Email conversation with Kurt Gabel for the FSL. And he expressed to me that any camera person that doesnt cover his slot expenses isnt a team member but a paid employee. And no different than a packer or a coach. I disagree, I wanted to get other feedback and input. I have to put my life on hold for a team and be there for practice and also camera's arent cheap as well as camera suits. Also you cant fun jump when your training and its hard work to pack and dub in a 20 minute call. Anyway just checking the overall input Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #12 July 15, 2002 Kurt is an interesting guy and he has some interesting ideas about 4-way. That said, I think he's totally wrong about a number of issues regarding 4-way, this being one of them. Just look at the recent application for the 4-way world record put up by Maubeuge -- they clearly list the camera flyer as a part of the team and the record. Pretty cool. You rarely see that type of recognition for the camera flyers.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #13 July 15, 2002 Back when I was competing 4-way on a regular basis, I was also shooting video for other teams at meets just to keep busy and sometimes defray the cost of my competition fees. Back then (late 80's- early 90's) every video guy I knew was doing the same thing. The video guy was TRULY an alternate; not in just name. He or she was expected to have equal skills to the others on the team. Back then, in the VHS-C days, teams would often split the cost of one camera rig and rotate jobs to maintain currency in all positions. This made for a more well rounded team that wasn't sucking bad if they had an injury or a member that couldn't make a meet. I, unfortunately, can never wear a camera helmet again due to the neck injuries I sustained from jumping my Sabers and Monarch's. Today's teams are far more specialized and clinical in their training regimen. Odd, though, that team averages aren't really any different at the recreational/semi-serious level than they were over a decade ago. I still see some teams with FS skilled video men, but more and more all I see are hired guns wearing the camera. Not that I think that is bad at all, just different than it used to be. Anyway, to answer the original question, I say that the video guy is most certainly a member of the team, so long as he is either a true video/alternate, or a full-time vidiot for the team. chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #14 July 15, 2002 IMO, The videographer is an integral part of 4-way, at the same time, though, I do not consider them to be part of the 4-way team. That is why the competition is called "4-way" and "8-way", not "5-way" and "9-way". Flying camera is not simple, and takes practice. It helps tremendously when a team can pick up a videographer for a season, rather than one here and one there. The importance of the videographer cannot be discounted, but to say that they are a memeber of the team, in my opinion, is not entirely accurate. In RW, the team is on one plane, and ideally, should not consider the video, just interacting and flying with their teammates. Freeflying is different, though, because there is actual interaction and movement specifically in relation to the videoflier. As far as not holding the videoflier accountable for mistakes if he is not considered part of the team, Josh, I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. A video person has a job to do, regardless of how many jumps they have done with a team, they need to be able to go out and perform. When I am hired to do something and I miss a shot, I expect to get shit for it...because I have put myself in a position where I am saying that I can do the job and whether I am being paid or not, I feel a responsibility to live up to that promise. Something that I have always been curious about is why camera people get in on the practice exit count in the plane, and especially participating in the eye contact exercise. I have always considered that preparation for the jump itsself...as the camera person, I am not going to be touching anyone on exit, and not leaving at the same time as the team...I use the count to watch and invision my exit, just as I will be when I am outside of the plane. With the eye contact, seems to me that the point is to get into the zone of interacting with and knowing the 3 other people with whom you are turning points...there will be no eye contact with the camera person at any point in the skydive. I dunno, I think I just approach the whole thing differently than most other camera people. I'm going to shut up now. :-) Steve_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamsville 0 #15 July 15, 2002 With regards to exit timing of the video flyer in 4-way, I changed my exit last year to leaving WITH the team rather than slightly before. It's also true that some people leave slightly afterwards. In any case, since I changed my exit a bit I am able to get a better view of the exit for the tape (the wing suit helps keep you from hitting the group, unless we should miss the count (oops!)). This is especially important during practice if an exit should funnel. For this reason, it is also good to be used to the exit cadence of your group.I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane. Harry, FB #4143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #16 July 15, 2002 I fully understand this, as I do have a good number of 4-way video jumps. Understanding and knowing the cadence of the count is important, but at the same time, the 4-way team is going to be using a number of cues that you will not have as a video flier, hearing a count, feeling a count, and seeing a count. As the video person, you get one and only thing, seeing the count. As these rituals are done in preparation for the skydive, I believe that it is best that they reflect the skydive itsself. Steve_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #17 July 15, 2002 I believe what I said (or at least meant to say) was that they cannot reasonably be held acceptable for bad camera flying if they were NOT being paid or NOT having the slot covered... if they ARE being paid or the slot is covered, feel free to debrief their work... The pick-up guy that is doing it for free is really just doing a favor, and unless he/she jeopardizes the safety or interferes with the skydive the most you should do is say "thanks for the effort but we'll find someone else." If it is the unusual case where the video guy is doing it for free as a team member then their work should be debriefed as well. As for the video guy/gal partaking in the pre-jump rituals, I think it is appropriate... to do good video you need to be in sync w/ the team... the rhythm of the practice count should be identical to the rhythm of the actual count... having that is critical to leaving at the right time... btw, many videographers do touch the team and leave at the same time... with many teams you can feel the count as well as you can see it. Just my opinion... JoshAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #18 July 15, 2002 QuoteSomething that I have always been curious about is why camera people get in on the practice exit count in the plane, and especially participating in the eye contact exercise. Ah, that's an advanced camera flyer technique that was taught to me by "The Dark Lord of the Sith". It has to do with reading their minds so that you can have a clue as to what their exit timing might actually be.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #19 July 15, 2002 >many videographers do touch the team and leave at the same time... As far as I know.... touching the team is the only way to really time the exits on a tailgate like a Casa or Skyvan since you are leaving in a weird spot and angle for video.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #20 July 15, 2002 I believe what I said (or at least meant to say) was that they cannot reasonably be held acceptable for bad camera flying if they were NOT being paid or NOT having the slot covered... if they ARE being paid or the slot is covered, feel free to debrief their work... ---------------- And that is what I was replying to. I don't personally think it matters if someone is being paid or not, or is jumping with a pick up team, etc., I think that when someone is jumping camera, they are always subject to constructive criticism. -------------- The pick-up guy that is doing it for free is really just doing a favor, and unless he/she jeopardizes the safety or interferes with the skydive the most you should do is say "thanks for the effort but we'll find someone else." ------------------- Monetary compensation is not what motivates me to do a good job, and is not what I think gives someone the right to critique my work. For me it's a matter of taking pride in my work and wanting to improve. I think that anyone, doing a favor or not, needs to be able to take a little bit of constructive criticism if it is thrown his/her way, because it will provide better video for the team which is being filmed, as well as help that person to improve in the future. If a team picks up a guy who has 150 jumps and takes him/her to nationals, that's one thing, where the person can't be expected to do a perfect job, but had I gone to nationals last year as a pick up video, which I did, and shoot bad video, which I did not, I would expect to be criticized for it. Should I have a friend say, "Hey, our video guy has to miss a couple of loads, would you mind jumping with us a couple of times?", even if I were doing it as a favor and not getting paid, I think it would be wrong to take offense to them saying between jumps, "Hey, do you think you could leave a little later?" or "Do you think you could leave a little earlier?" ----------------------- As for the video guy/gal partaking in the pre-jump rituals, I think it is appropriate... to do good video you need to be in sync w/ the team... the rhythm of the practice count should be identical to the rhythm of the actual count...having that is critical to leaving at the right time... btw, many videographers do touch the team and leave at the same time... with many teams you can feel the count as well as you can see it. ---------------------- I will restate a little differently... I think that the ritual should reflect the skydive. If you touch the team on exit, then I think you should touch the team on the count. If you do not, though, I think you should watch it without touching it, because when you are actually exiting with the team, you do not have the benefit of the feeling of touch. I completely agree that someone needs to be familiar with the rhythm of a team's count, but just as the team will do a shake, down, out, count if that is what they do in the door, I think that it is ideal for the videographer to do just what he/she will do in the door, and take the visual cues off of the practice count. Steve_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #21 July 15, 2002 As far as I know.... touching the team is the only way to really time the exits on a tailgate like a Casa or Skyvan since you are leaving in a weird spot and angle for video. --------------- It is not completely necessary, but I do do that. What we were talking about, though, is 4-way teams, who do not leave out of a skyvan or CASA except on extremely rare occasions when nothing else is available. Other than in tailgate aircraft, I actually, personally, don't believe I know any videographers who touch the team that they are filming. It might be a good poll. Steve_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #22 July 15, 2002 Tailgate aircraft come into play for RW every 4 years at alternating World Championships. A couple of years ago, I saw Maubeuge training almost exclusively from the Skyvan. I assume that the GKs and AA guys also do this when the time comes. David van Greuningen, formerly of PD Blue, but currently on my team, says that at DeLand it was not an uncommon situation for them to have trained out of a tailgate even during "normal" twin otter years.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #23 July 15, 2002 huh, I hadn't heard of that, I have always seen exactly the opposite. Paul, what have you seen as far as people touching teams on exit?_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #24 July 15, 2002 Accourding to the FAI... the only planes that can be used in competition are Twin Otters, Casa's and Skyvans. One of the DZ's in our area ran into a situation with this last weekend. They are flying a Westwind Beech 18 and were planning on using it to fly a NSL meet since they don't have an Otter. Well... some people raised the issue that if they jumped a non-regualtion plane then none of the rounds could count for any official scores. This DZ had to lease an Otter and pay the shuttle fees and all so they could have a regulation plane to jump for one weekend. I'm sure the DZ had to lose big bucks for the otter...Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #25 July 15, 2002 For a Twin Otter exit, it would not be to anyone's advantage for the camera flyer to touch the team at any point after climb-out. As a matter of fact, assuming a leading exit for a 4-way team, you'd do a lot better if you got as far back on the step and away from the rest of the team as possible. Revisiting the tailgate aircraft issue, again, that's only important for actual competition once every four years (and even then only for world class teams). However, circumstances at a particular DZ may dictate otherwise depending on what aircraft they might be able to put up on any given day. That's where my discussion with DvG came into play as that was the case during one of our training camps.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
