Friends don't let friends . . .

[quade 4]

Check out this CRIMINAL case HERE.

Please note that this is NOT a civil case and simply lawyers trying to sue anyone for money, but this is a CRIMINAL case in which the prosecutors are going after somebody for manslaughter.

If this sets a precedent, then friends won't let friends . . . do anything!

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jfields 0]

There are two sides to this one Quade.

I was recently involved in a real discussion about this, as someone's child sat in jail. If the single parent signed the (over 18) child out and they did anything, the parent was legally responsible, including abandoning the $25,000 bond. In this case, the parent had no choice but to leave the child there, to get treatment for some psychological issues before being released into the care of a psychiatrist.

If this was a friend, not a child, where does the duty lie? If you accept someone into your care, don't you owe it to both them and yourself to make sure they are... cared for? I'd have to say that I'd do one of two things. First, if they had pulled a dumb-ass stunt, leave them there. Second, if I got them out, I'd damned near duct-tape them down until their hearing, so they couldn't get themselves or me in any more trouble.

[pop 0]

That's absolute bullshit. How can you hold the man reponsible whne he wasnt there and he didnt provide the alcohol. American justice system is full of shit sometimes. Always trying to find someone to blame. Well, how about blaming the people who were actually driving

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[SudsyFist 0]

*ugh*

this one reeks of political strong-arming from annapolis (or their alumni-ringknockers).

i mean, do you see the da's office actually pursuing this if the victim was, say, a noname aff instructor from crosskeys?

steve

[Meathorse 0]

Yes. I agree. Absolute bullshit. Sure, he probably should not have left his friend behind after bailin' him out. But he sure as shit shouldn't have to spend 15 years in prison because of it.

And the driver's father wants a guilty verdict to "send a message"? What message? That no one is responsible for their own actions anymore? Perhaps he just has a hard time accepting the fact that his own son could have done something so stupid.

*sigh*... all that crap asside though, it's always a shame when something like that happens.

[SudsyFist 0]

Quote

And the driver's father wants a guilty verdict to "send a message"? What message? That no one is responsible for their own actions anymore? Perhaps he just has a hard time accepting the fact that his own son could have done something so stupid.

i think the article was referring to the victim's father, not the driver's.

steve

[jfields 0]

Meathorse,

Read the article again. The father (Elliott) isn't in denial that his son did anything stupid. It was someone else (Pangle) that hit is son after being bailed out by the guy being charged (Powell). If I was the father that just lost their kid, I'd be pissed too.

Powell kind of opened himself up for problems that he didn't have to. No law said he had to pick the other guy up from jail. If he did, he didn't have to leave him. The drunk could have been left to suck up and deal with his own responsibility.

[quade 4]

So going back to what you said before.

If a friend calls you up to bail him out of jail, what do you do? Just let him sit there? Ahh forget that one, you've already answered it.

What about this;

A guy tells you he's going BASE jumping and dies doing so. Are you liable for not stopping him?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[FliegendeWolf 0]

Well, may I suggest drawing a parallel to something a bit closer to home? I read all the time in these forums that people should not succumb to peer pressure, foresaking safety for looking cool, whether this is in wingloading, pond swooping, or jumping out of the plane in bad conditions rather than riding down. I think the same judgments should be made here: do you have the safety of your friend and others in mind when you bail him out? Or are you succumbing to peer pressure?

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[jfields 0]

Quote

If a friend calls you up to bail him out of jail, what do you do? Just let him sit there?

Depends on what his problem was. If I voluntarily accept the responsibility by bailing him out, I make his problems mine. If they are beyond my ability to deal with, I might do the best thing for my friend by leaving him there until he can get treatment/counseling/detox or whatever. I can visit and give support without putting my ass in the sling for something they might not be able to control.

All I'm saying is that I have the choice of whether or not to take on my buddy's problems. If I do so, I am acknowledging the additional legal liability. It is a decision that shouldn't be taken lightly. If someone accepts the responsibility, they damned well better follow through.

[jfields 0]

Quote

A guy tells you he's going BASE jumping and dies doing so. Are you liable for not stopping him?

Quade,

Inexact analogy. If my friend wants to base jump, does he put others at risk of death? Probably not. And his calling me to tell me isn't like me going to the jail and signing on the dotted line for him. Not at all the same.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I will and have bailed plenty of friends out of jail. Some of those same friends have repaid me in kind when I got out of hand. That being said, whenever it was drinking related, I would get them out (assuming I had the cash), then take them straight home, to their hotel, or to my house until morning. No way would I ever drop someone who had just been released for drunk driving back off at their car. I know for a fact that the authorities will sit near such cars and wait to see who comes and fetches them, so it's stupid to do that. Worried that your car will get stolen or looted? Better just make sure your insurance is paid up and then not sweat it. Anyway, you can stop by there and police up all your jump gear or other expensive items before you secure it for the evening.

Chuck

"been there and done that on several occasions"

[Deuce 1]

Good article. The key issue is what "duty" we owe each other. This stretching of the concept is why I dropped out of law school. These intellectual concepts are interesting, but they get proven by ruining people. I just didn't have it in me.

You say you'll take your freind home from jail, and the cops release him to you. You attempt to take him home, but he does not choose to remain in your custody. He walks away. Should the freind have restrained the bailee? Should he have used force? Should he have used deadly force to prevent the possible death of the Ensign?

That brings up the other issue of forseeability. Was is forseeable that the bailee would go drunk driving ad put others in mortal danger?

This decision will affect us.

Is it forseeable that teaching someone to swoop will result in their attempting to swoop and killing themself or someone else?

This is what is sickening about lawyers. It is an interesting question, but it will be answered by ruining a person, or several people.

[jfields 0]

Although I never have been asked to bail someone out, I agree with Chuck. If you do it, do it right. Doing it half-assed only makes it more likely that the friend will continue doing whatever got them in the lockup to begin with, and maybe you with them.

[TequilaGirl 0]

This is bullshit......and even if they get a conviction it will most likely be overturned on appeal.......so really they aren't sending out much of a message.......just that they are stupid and are wasting tax payers money.

[Sebazz1 2]

I agree that the defendant should have taken his friend home or to a hotel but not back to his car or bar. That's just not looking out for a friend.

But to be charged with anything else than just being a poor friend I don't think this man is responsible for 15 years in jail. That is absurd! Sounds like some political strong arming is keeping this case afloat...........

Just my $.02.........

[fudd 0]

To charge the friend for manslaughter is a bit far, but at least he's got a moral responsibility.
I you see a drunk friend grab his carkeys to go for a drive, you should try and stop him/her. That's what friends do.
As for the BASE scenario. If someone says to you they are going to do a basejump, and just need to know how to pull because he never jumped a parachute before. Would you show him how to operate the hand deploy, or tell the persone to get proper training?
We are all 100% responsible for our actions, but we also have a responsibility to stop other from doing stupid things.
-Fudd

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[Meathorse 0]

Quote

Read the article again. The father (Elliott) isn't in denial that his son did anything stupid. It was someone else (Pangle) that hit is son after being bailed out by the guy being charged (Powell). If I was the father that just lost their kid, I'd be pissed too.

Ah, oops, I can't read. My bad, had my fathers crossed :). I still believe his actions are not justified. If the driver (Pangle) were still alive do you think the father of Elliot would still be blaming Powell? Would Powell even be accused of anything right now?

[TequilaGirl 0]

....and regarding bailing people out of jail - atleast in Texas if you have ever read the paperwork - you (the third party) are only responsible for making sure the person you bailed out of jail shows up for his/her court dates......if you have ever bailed anyone out of jail you should be copied on all upcoming court dates. In Texas you are referred to as a Custodian.

[Deuce 1]

Sebazz, this has already happened. Cop pulls guy over, guy is drunk. Cop drives guy home, cause it's right around the corner. Guy's wife says thanks, guy goes inside, cop goes back on patrol.

Guy drinks some more, gets in wife's car, drives it into another car killing himself and the other occupants. Everybody sues the cop and his department, he loses job, City pays out millions. All cops lose the ability to use discrection in cases like this. You SHALL book.

It just occurred to me that maybe the municipality is going for the criminal conviction to avoid the civil liability for releasing the drunk guy in this case to his friend.

Answer me this: how much force would it be reasonable for you to use on your freind to keep him from driving? Could you break his legs? Could you kill him?

[SBS 0]

If a friend calls you up to bail him out of jail, what do you do?

--------------

From what it said, it sounded more to me like he was "released", not bailed out. Bailing someone out, I think comes with responsibilities, but if the person was mearly picking him up cause he didn't have a ride, to hold him responsible for ANY actions made by the person is completely rediculous...at what point would he not be responsible? The article said specifically that since he did not take the man home, he was responsible...what does home have to do with it?

I agree with the people saying that our society is always looking for someone to blame.

-S

_____________
I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[Sebazz1 2]

Duece it may be hard for me to hold a conversation of this caliber with you but I will try.

Cop should have told the wife to hide her keys Silly silly silly.......... One dumb ass f*cks it up for everyone.

I have had too many friends die in automobile accidents involving alchohol. I have been in two very serious accidents myself involving hospital time. And received a DUI four years ago this past June. I have toned it down tremendously.

If need be I will fight a drunk friend to keep him from driving. I will fight him. Punchin wrestlin whatever. And I have had friends do the same for me. A real good friend will do that. A so so friend will just say don't do it then not hold you back. Just depends how good of a friend you are I guess.......

Nice point about the municipality avoiding liability too

[Deuce 1]

Cool. Not enough people are willing to put their skin on the line for a principal.

There's no way the prosecutor could have filed against the friend in this case if the friend had used force to try to keep him from driving. If the friend had shown up the next day with a black eye from trying to keep idiot boy from driving, there would be no question that he had met the burden of his duty to attempt to keep the knucklehead from driving.

We gotta party Sebazz. When you comin up north again?

[Sebazz1 2]

Soon you hairless meeker monkey

[Enrique 0]

What message? That no one is responsible for their own actions anymore? ***

Just when you thought that a guy would learn a lesson after being in jail for DUI, BAM! Back to the bottle!

BS! Does it mean that I have to take my drunk friend home and tuck him in, and wait until dawn to prevent him from waking up and doing something stupid? I think that's a little bit off.