Heated topic in plane

[rgoper 0]

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Ray's point is do you have that "coach" jump with you on your team ala Dr. Joel and some other teams

if the "pro" flies on your team, and it's within the rules, i cannot see why it would not be kosher. he/she wouldn't be considered a "ringer" unless they were ineligible.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[weid14 0]

that's not true really -- people may consider any world class skydiver a ringer even if they are eligible. that's what has some people out of sorts (not directed at anyone in particular).

[ltdiver 3]

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Heres the question: Is it fair for a team to hire a Pro class skydiver to jump with them? And especially in the non professional advanced class?

Rdutch,

You might have read this from 4way.org? Player/Coach Debate Some valid points made here.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[Shark 0]

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4way isnt the only thing skydivers think about.

Is this some sort of belly flying terminology? I guess some people are too scared of getting kicked in the nose to free fly....

May be, but some of us so-called belly-types like to hang with the IN crowd. BTW, that's the Shark there at 12 o'clock high in the white suit, blue helmet...

[GrumpySmurf 0]

If it's within the letter of the rules at the time of the competetion, then there can't be anything wrong with it.
*Personal Opinion* National level competetion (and above) is about one thing - winning, plain and simple - you don't ascend to this level of competition without that goal in mind. Doing everything nessacary to bring home the Gold, within the letter and spirit of the rules, is not only *NOT* wrong, but good strategy.

If people don't like the rules - I am sure thier USPA rep would be more than willing to discuss said rules with them and see about bringing about change, if deemed nessacary, to make for a more fair competition. *shrug*

[Deuce 1]

If the rules allow it, it's "fair".

But it's not ethical.

The classes should be set up so that the competition is equal, with advantage being obtained through hard work and practice and gained through experience. If one jumper already has the experience and is "coasting" in the class just to get his employers a medal, that's just not ethical. The jumpers who employed him or her will know that when the medal is placed around their neck.

What a novel way to make the sport even more expensive.

[weid14 0]

why is it not ethical if its not against the rules? why not increase your learning curve, hire a player coach and go for it?

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[Jimbo 0]

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But it's not ethical.

Actually, it is the very definition of ethical. Dictionary.com defines ethical as:

Being in accordance with the accepted principles of right and wrong that govern the conduct of a profession.

It seems that you might think it's not fair, but since fair is totally subjective that doesn't really mean anything.

Want to/Need to hire a player coach? Do it. A player coach can't carry an entire team through Nationals or any other competition.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Stacy 0]

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Want to/Need to hire a player coach? Do it. A player coach can't carry an entire team through Nationals or any other competition.

point proven: last season, MASL meet #2 @ Cross Keys. A friend and I who were totally new to 4way wanted to do the meet, intermediate. Doug Park was on the DZ that day as well as Greg Lund (formerly of Deguello). we had TWO ringers, our average ended up being 7. Coaches can't carry ya!!!

[Shark 0]

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Doug Park was on the DZ that day as well as Greg Lund (formerly of Deguello). we had TWO ringers, our average ended up being 7. Coaches can't carry ya!!!

That must have been some great coaching, though.
Last year Chaz1234 (who still lurks here) did the SSL with Neal Houston. As a new 3/4 Way team, they got 2nd in Open.... out of 2 Teams. But they got excellent coaching. Chaz had the quote of the year when told that Neal would be jumping with them and be their fourth.
Totally clueless, Chaz asks: "Is he any good??"

[Stacy 0]

yeah we also got the pleasure of kicking doug off the team in front of everyone, stating that he would simply, "ruin our handicap." we quickly asked him back though.

any opportunity to jump with (or work with to any extent) a coach is not to be turned down. irreplaceable.

[PhreeZone 20]

By that same token is it ok if I go hire 3 top level jumpers to go compete with me in nationals and have them drage me around the sky? How would you feel if you lost to a team that basically paid someone to be one their team that is better then everyone else at that level?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Stacy 0]

First of all, hiring 3 others is a different story. Situations arise when a team may need a player coach for good and totally acceptable reasons. hiring out a whole team for yourself, no I don't agree with that. We were a different issue. 2 people wanting to learn about 4way. We had no competition at that meet. circumstances were totally different there. Also a coach can not "drag" you around the sky. Look at the dive pools. Every person has a job to do. If one person is being "dragged around" the sky, it won't work (or at least not as well as if they were truly flying correctly). In random formations grips must be broken totally between moves. coaches can't cure level problems or the fact that person X can't turn as fast and on center as he/she can. Like stated above, only as fast as the slowest person. That's all I'll say about it.

[Deuce 1]

That's your interpretation of what is ethical, and if it wasn't up for interpretation by others, there could be no difference of opinion.

Your acceptance of ringers in competition does not make that the "accepted principle of right and wrong in the profession of skydiving"

4 jumpers with 300 jumps should compete against similarly qualified jumpers. Jumpers with ringers should be handicapped.

[weid14 0]

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4 jumpers with 300 jumps should compete against similarly qualified jumpers. Jumpers with ringers should be handicapped.

but how do you quantify that? I've been doing 4way since around the 350 jump mark... what happens if someone has been doing birdman suit jumps for 500 jumps, then does 4way, how do you judge the qualifications? what about tunnel time? the tunnel rats won a gold withas littel as 75 jumps... no way is there a magical formula.

[Jimbo 0]

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That's your interpretation of what is ethical, and if it wasn't up for interpretation by others, there could be no difference of opinion.

Your acceptance of ringers in competition does not make that the "accepted principle of right and wrong in the profession of skydiving"

Actually, since the rules are the 'accepted principle of what is right and wrong' in the profession it is _not_ my interpretation. It still fits exactly the dictionary definition of ethical.

I'm going to leave it at that.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Deuce 1]

C'mon Jimbo say something like "I pity the fool!" or something.

On the forums I give voice to stuff I would let run off my back like water when it happens in the real world. I am annoyed by people "working" any system. I was a national class shooter in PPC and IPSC handgun, and highpower rifle (Don't get me started on mousegun shooters) the system was easy to work. You'd get a Marine sniper who'd never "competed" and was open class- my ass- and put him on a four man team to drive up the team numbers. Or you would compete as hard as you could with an inferior weapon and reloaded ammo, drawing poor scores, and then bring out a national match M1A (real gun) with Federal match ammo and clean up.

It was within the rules, but it was petty, everybody did it, but it just wasn't right.

The best competitions are with the factory's guns. Glock does a match like that from time to time, vanilla pistols with factory ammo. Level playing field. It's a completely different type of competition as it measures shooting skill, not cleverness in gaming the system.

You're right, people can hire jumper coaches, and they do. It adds another dimension to a complicated, competitive sport. I think that's why I'm attracted to 4 way video. No game, just show me the grips in good, tight, well-framed video. That is just my skill, and if I don't get it, it's my lack of skill. Using Paul Quade's camera helmet won't improve me. (I may look cooler though).

We just feel the word ethical in different ways. I feel that rules and ethics are usually different things.

I prefer scrambles competitions, where skill is dominant over strategy. Were we to meet at a meet and you had some moster skygod star ringer on your team I would laugh to myself, them's the breaks, and give it my best effort, and maybe my team would win anyhow cause your video flyers battery died.

Thanks for the thoughtful debate.