Rdutch 0 #1 August 19, 2002 Ok first to mention I don't agree or disagree on this topic. Yesterday on the plane one of my teammates and another team had a discussion about having a player coach for competition. Mainly Nationals. Heres the question: Is it fair for a team to hire a Pro class skydiver to jump with them? And especially in the non professional advanced class? Last year in Advanced category Team Nemisis was beaten by Optic nerve and Identity crisis. Both teams had members that had previously competed at the world level, and Optic Nerve actually had Solly Williams and Doug parks of Deland Majic fame. This year a lot of teams have picked up player coaches. A team in advanced isn't allowed to compete if more than one member has won a gold medal in advanced. So should a team be allowed to compete if the team has members that have medals in world cups/meets. Or national champions from another country? Or should there be a limit to how may members can be on a team that have previously competed in Open class. Feel free to add or subtract issues involved if I missed anything or you have questions/answers of your own. I'm not trying to start anything either i'm just wondering the general idea on this subject. Thankyou Ray Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #2 August 19, 2002 having been on said plane, I will refrain from any comment.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rdutch 0 #3 August 19, 2002 Oh yeah I forgot to mention that this rule doesnt apply to my team as we arent eligible to compete in advanced anyway. So it was just a topic nothing to loose or gain from it. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PLFXpert 0 #4 August 19, 2002 I wasn't on said, plane...Ha ha ha. You asked a lot of questions, but to answer one: I don't think I see anything wrong w/ a team getting a pro-coach. Every team has the same opportunities to be coached. If one team has one, nothing is stopping another team from getting one. It's a free market. Also, no matter much coaching you have, you are still competeting on your own, with your own skills. It doesn't matter how much you practiced or who you practiced with, it matters how well you perform. A coach can't magically make you perform well, they can only *coach* you in the right direction. What about sons/daughters of DZ owners who start competeting....would it be fair for them to compete when they had top notch coaching from the get go? Or what about me? I've had an excellent flier jump w/ me on nearly EVERY jump since i"ve started (my boyfriend)...does that put me at an unfair advantage? I don't think so. There are tons of really good jumpers that anyone can ask, "hey, will you jump w/ me." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rdutch 0 #5 August 19, 2002 Player/coach means that you jump with the team as well as coach them, so they are getting a pro caliber team member not just a coach. Im sure no one would object to who coaches a team. Ray Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PLFXpert 0 #6 August 19, 2002 Ohhhhhh, I see. Hmmm....I'll have to think about that. But my first thought is, it's a team that wins, not any single person. That one person can't make the rest of the team move faster or make grips. From the other perspective though, if it were me, I wouldn't want a player coach b/c I wouldn't want the backlash of people telling me I only won b/c of X person. I'd rather win w/ people at the same skill level as me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bbarnhouse 0 #7 August 19, 2002 Difficult question. I know that in Synchronized Swimming once one has competed at an Olympic/World level or even US Nationals and placed, one may not go back down and compete at a lower level.(with the exception of moving into Grand Masters) Only those on the "senior team" may compete at this level anyway. Lets not forget that there are AAA teams that go down and compete at the AA level as well come nationals. As a judge for an Olympic sport what I would offer is this.....until there is a rule that states otherwise......its fair game.(I choose to withold my own opinion) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PLFXpert 0 #8 August 19, 2002 Quoteuntil there is a rule that states otherwise......its fair game I would have to agree w/ this for a LOT of things in life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rgoper 0 #9 August 19, 2002 personally, i think a team that wants to compete on any level, should at their descrepency be allowed to have any coach they desire. personally, if i want to get better at something, not only sky diving, i would not think twice about hiring someone of a professional caliber. ya know what they say "learn from the best" i wouldn't have a problem with it.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites weid14 0 #10 August 19, 2002 Ray's point is do you have that "coach" jump with you on your team ala Dr. Joel and some other teams there was the "does MJ play on lower level B-ball teams, etc" the argument I think is about competitive advantage, and whether some people are "buying" a medal (or at least the perception of buying it). It is true you can only go as fast as your slowest person, so in one case it really doesn't matter, but a coach will definately bring the playing level of the whole team up a notch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GrumpySmurf 0 #11 August 19, 2002 " Or national champions from another country? " I think there are rules in the SCM addressing this one - something along the lines of not being allowed to 'place' (win a medal) in US Nationals (or become a member of the US National Team) if you a) do not hold US Permanent Residency or better b) have competed in a forgien competition as anything other than a 'guest' competitor c) represented any country other than the US at any FAI sactioned World Class event. I think limitiations b) and c) expire 3 years or so after the competition in question. Case in point might be last years Women's Freestyle - Emmanuelle took 1st (I think) yet Missy got the Gold? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites weid14 0 #12 August 19, 2002 yes you got it right, but there also was some language in there about the length of time one needed to have that resident status in the US also, not sure if that was changed recently or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rdutch 0 #13 August 20, 2002 I think the resident expert nows what he is talking about about with time and he is covered. Good luck 4 J**s****m you know who you are. I hope you kick some ass this year. And once again not my topic I was just looking for opinions. After all the stuff I have heard about all of this you would think more people would have something to add/subtract but then once again 4way isnt the only thing skydivers think about. Also all opinions are greatly needed and submitted to uspa as they make the Rules and nothing changes or stays without input. Ray Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Stacy 0 #14 August 20, 2002 Quote4way isnt the only thing skydivers think about. It's not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rdutch 0 #15 August 20, 2002 No it Boobies, points, boobies, Is the video guy filming this, Boobies, How can we be better than them. ect ect Oh yeah Boobies also Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Stacy 0 #16 August 20, 2002 well now it's all clear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #17 August 20, 2002 Quote4way isnt the only thing skydivers think about. Is this some sort of belly flying terminology? I guess some people are too scared of getting kicked in the nose to free fly.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Stacy 0 #18 August 20, 2002 HeY! i'll have you know that later that day I did a 9 way hybrid, the next day i did an 8 way tube, and i did other freefly jumps. i will nto jump with said kicker-in-the-face though ever again. i shouldn't have been jumping after breakign the nose @ wffc, but well, i didn't know it was broken then. no harm done. i couldn't get a full face on that's for sure!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rdutch 0 #19 August 20, 2002 My point wasnt the Mj thing at all it was a point made by (well you know who's) I dont disagree with hiring a player coach at all. Hiring a ringer team is a deferent story. I give you guys full credit and hope the best for you all. Coming from a team that also lost a member mid year is hard to make up for. We had the hardest time finding a member, and we did get a medal winner just not a world class medal winner. Hopefully we can all drink a victory beer together when its all done. I was just trying to get input from most competetors about their ides. Also each year you see more ane more player coaches. I know of a lot more teams using this than last year and the year before. No hassles ok just speak your mind Ray Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dutchboy 0 #20 August 20, 2002 Is it really fair to "weekend" teams to have to compete with people who get paid to skydive all week? I've talked to some of the members of Nemesis and they already spend allot of money between training jumps and tunnel time. It just seems to go against the spirit of the competition to hire professionals to jump on your team. This is almost exactly the same as a company hiring a professional for the company softball team. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #21 August 20, 2002 > I guess some people are too scared of getting kicked in the nose >to free fly.... No, in fact, belly flyers have discovered these formerly-unknown magical helmets that actually cover your nose! Excellent for keeping that elbow a safe distance from your nose no matter what your discipline. As far as I can tell, either freeflyers have not yet discovered that these exist, or they cannot get them in loud-neon-patch colors and thus cannot safely coordinate their color scheme with these helmets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #22 August 20, 2002 Oh... we've found the full face Bill.. they are just harder to mount a camera, 2 dytters, 50 stickers and still be able to wear mirrored goggles with. Besides... I seem to remember seeing you in a whire ProTec not long ago on some... interesting loads Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #23 August 20, 2002 Quoteinteresting loads Those were free fly loads weren't they? Looked like it when they exited anyway...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #24 August 20, 2002 Quotethey are just harder to mount a camera, 2 dytters, 50 stickers and still be able to wear mirrored goggles with. Are you trying to say something....? _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites weid14 0 #25 August 20, 2002 I know Ray, I wasn't going after you at all, shoot, you were sitting right behind me and I didn't even hear you say anything. I was just waiting till 11 grand so those other two would shut up Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Rdutch 0 #3 August 19, 2002 Oh yeah I forgot to mention that this rule doesnt apply to my team as we arent eligible to compete in advanced anyway. So it was just a topic nothing to loose or gain from it. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #4 August 19, 2002 I wasn't on said, plane...Ha ha ha. You asked a lot of questions, but to answer one: I don't think I see anything wrong w/ a team getting a pro-coach. Every team has the same opportunities to be coached. If one team has one, nothing is stopping another team from getting one. It's a free market. Also, no matter much coaching you have, you are still competeting on your own, with your own skills. It doesn't matter how much you practiced or who you practiced with, it matters how well you perform. A coach can't magically make you perform well, they can only *coach* you in the right direction. What about sons/daughters of DZ owners who start competeting....would it be fair for them to compete when they had top notch coaching from the get go? Or what about me? I've had an excellent flier jump w/ me on nearly EVERY jump since i"ve started (my boyfriend)...does that put me at an unfair advantage? I don't think so. There are tons of really good jumpers that anyone can ask, "hey, will you jump w/ me." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #5 August 19, 2002 Player/coach means that you jump with the team as well as coach them, so they are getting a pro caliber team member not just a coach. Im sure no one would object to who coaches a team. Ray Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #6 August 19, 2002 Ohhhhhh, I see. Hmmm....I'll have to think about that. But my first thought is, it's a team that wins, not any single person. That one person can't make the rest of the team move faster or make grips. From the other perspective though, if it were me, I wouldn't want a player coach b/c I wouldn't want the backlash of people telling me I only won b/c of X person. I'd rather win w/ people at the same skill level as me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #7 August 19, 2002 Difficult question. I know that in Synchronized Swimming once one has competed at an Olympic/World level or even US Nationals and placed, one may not go back down and compete at a lower level.(with the exception of moving into Grand Masters) Only those on the "senior team" may compete at this level anyway. Lets not forget that there are AAA teams that go down and compete at the AA level as well come nationals. As a judge for an Olympic sport what I would offer is this.....until there is a rule that states otherwise......its fair game.(I choose to withold my own opinion) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #8 August 19, 2002 Quoteuntil there is a rule that states otherwise......its fair game I would have to agree w/ this for a LOT of things in life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rgoper 0 #9 August 19, 2002 personally, i think a team that wants to compete on any level, should at their descrepency be allowed to have any coach they desire. personally, if i want to get better at something, not only sky diving, i would not think twice about hiring someone of a professional caliber. ya know what they say "learn from the best" i wouldn't have a problem with it.--Richard-- "We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #10 August 19, 2002 Ray's point is do you have that "coach" jump with you on your team ala Dr. Joel and some other teams there was the "does MJ play on lower level B-ball teams, etc" the argument I think is about competitive advantage, and whether some people are "buying" a medal (or at least the perception of buying it). It is true you can only go as fast as your slowest person, so in one case it really doesn't matter, but a coach will definately bring the playing level of the whole team up a notch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #11 August 19, 2002 " Or national champions from another country? " I think there are rules in the SCM addressing this one - something along the lines of not being allowed to 'place' (win a medal) in US Nationals (or become a member of the US National Team) if you a) do not hold US Permanent Residency or better b) have competed in a forgien competition as anything other than a 'guest' competitor c) represented any country other than the US at any FAI sactioned World Class event. I think limitiations b) and c) expire 3 years or so after the competition in question. Case in point might be last years Women's Freestyle - Emmanuelle took 1st (I think) yet Missy got the Gold? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #12 August 19, 2002 yes you got it right, but there also was some language in there about the length of time one needed to have that resident status in the US also, not sure if that was changed recently or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #13 August 20, 2002 I think the resident expert nows what he is talking about about with time and he is covered. Good luck 4 J**s****m you know who you are. I hope you kick some ass this year. And once again not my topic I was just looking for opinions. After all the stuff I have heard about all of this you would think more people would have something to add/subtract but then once again 4way isnt the only thing skydivers think about. Also all opinions are greatly needed and submitted to uspa as they make the Rules and nothing changes or stays without input. Ray Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stacy 0 #14 August 20, 2002 Quote4way isnt the only thing skydivers think about. It's not? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #15 August 20, 2002 No it Boobies, points, boobies, Is the video guy filming this, Boobies, How can we be better than them. ect ect Oh yeah Boobies also Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stacy 0 #16 August 20, 2002 well now it's all clear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #17 August 20, 2002 Quote4way isnt the only thing skydivers think about. Is this some sort of belly flying terminology? I guess some people are too scared of getting kicked in the nose to free fly.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Stacy 0 #18 August 20, 2002 HeY! i'll have you know that later that day I did a 9 way hybrid, the next day i did an 8 way tube, and i did other freefly jumps. i will nto jump with said kicker-in-the-face though ever again. i shouldn't have been jumping after breakign the nose @ wffc, but well, i didn't know it was broken then. no harm done. i couldn't get a full face on that's for sure!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rdutch 0 #19 August 20, 2002 My point wasnt the Mj thing at all it was a point made by (well you know who's) I dont disagree with hiring a player coach at all. Hiring a ringer team is a deferent story. I give you guys full credit and hope the best for you all. Coming from a team that also lost a member mid year is hard to make up for. We had the hardest time finding a member, and we did get a medal winner just not a world class medal winner. Hopefully we can all drink a victory beer together when its all done. I was just trying to get input from most competetors about their ides. Also each year you see more ane more player coaches. I know of a lot more teams using this than last year and the year before. No hassles ok just speak your mind Ray Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dutchboy 0 #20 August 20, 2002 Is it really fair to "weekend" teams to have to compete with people who get paid to skydive all week? I've talked to some of the members of Nemesis and they already spend allot of money between training jumps and tunnel time. It just seems to go against the spirit of the competition to hire professionals to jump on your team. This is almost exactly the same as a company hiring a professional for the company softball team. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #21 August 20, 2002 > I guess some people are too scared of getting kicked in the nose >to free fly.... No, in fact, belly flyers have discovered these formerly-unknown magical helmets that actually cover your nose! Excellent for keeping that elbow a safe distance from your nose no matter what your discipline. As far as I can tell, either freeflyers have not yet discovered that these exist, or they cannot get them in loud-neon-patch colors and thus cannot safely coordinate their color scheme with these helmets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #22 August 20, 2002 Oh... we've found the full face Bill.. they are just harder to mount a camera, 2 dytters, 50 stickers and still be able to wear mirrored goggles with. Besides... I seem to remember seeing you in a whire ProTec not long ago on some... interesting loads Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #23 August 20, 2002 Quoteinteresting loads Those were free fly loads weren't they? Looked like it when they exited anyway...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #24 August 20, 2002 Quotethey are just harder to mount a camera, 2 dytters, 50 stickers and still be able to wear mirrored goggles with. Are you trying to say something....? _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites weid14 0 #25 August 20, 2002 I know Ray, I wasn't going after you at all, shoot, you were sitting right behind me and I didn't even hear you say anything. I was just waiting till 11 grand so those other two would shut up Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
freeflir29 0 #17 August 20, 2002 Quote4way isnt the only thing skydivers think about. Is this some sort of belly flying terminology? I guess some people are too scared of getting kicked in the nose to free fly.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stacy 0 #18 August 20, 2002 HeY! i'll have you know that later that day I did a 9 way hybrid, the next day i did an 8 way tube, and i did other freefly jumps. i will nto jump with said kicker-in-the-face though ever again. i shouldn't have been jumping after breakign the nose @ wffc, but well, i didn't know it was broken then. no harm done. i couldn't get a full face on that's for sure!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #19 August 20, 2002 My point wasnt the Mj thing at all it was a point made by (well you know who's) I dont disagree with hiring a player coach at all. Hiring a ringer team is a deferent story. I give you guys full credit and hope the best for you all. Coming from a team that also lost a member mid year is hard to make up for. We had the hardest time finding a member, and we did get a medal winner just not a world class medal winner. Hopefully we can all drink a victory beer together when its all done. I was just trying to get input from most competetors about their ides. Also each year you see more ane more player coaches. I know of a lot more teams using this than last year and the year before. No hassles ok just speak your mind Ray Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dutchboy 0 #20 August 20, 2002 Is it really fair to "weekend" teams to have to compete with people who get paid to skydive all week? I've talked to some of the members of Nemesis and they already spend allot of money between training jumps and tunnel time. It just seems to go against the spirit of the competition to hire professionals to jump on your team. This is almost exactly the same as a company hiring a professional for the company softball team. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #21 August 20, 2002 > I guess some people are too scared of getting kicked in the nose >to free fly.... No, in fact, belly flyers have discovered these formerly-unknown magical helmets that actually cover your nose! Excellent for keeping that elbow a safe distance from your nose no matter what your discipline. As far as I can tell, either freeflyers have not yet discovered that these exist, or they cannot get them in loud-neon-patch colors and thus cannot safely coordinate their color scheme with these helmets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #22 August 20, 2002 Oh... we've found the full face Bill.. they are just harder to mount a camera, 2 dytters, 50 stickers and still be able to wear mirrored goggles with. Besides... I seem to remember seeing you in a whire ProTec not long ago on some... interesting loads Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #23 August 20, 2002 Quoteinteresting loads Those were free fly loads weren't they? Looked like it when they exited anyway...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #24 August 20, 2002 Quotethey are just harder to mount a camera, 2 dytters, 50 stickers and still be able to wear mirrored goggles with. Are you trying to say something....? _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #25 August 20, 2002 I know Ray, I wasn't going after you at all, shoot, you were sitting right behind me and I didn't even hear you say anything. I was just waiting till 11 grand so those other two would shut up Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
