SBS 0 #126 August 21, 2002 Well that's still the Husband's problem. It could have been like this: Wife: Sweety, do you want Lasagna or Spaghetti for dinner? Husband: I don't really like either of those. How about pizza, or maybe I could throw something on the grill. You're only truly powerless if you refuse to make a choice. ------------------ Stop and think. We are not talking about a husband and wife that can talk to eachother and negotiate...it's an analogy!!! Yes, if it was a husband and wife that were sitting in their kitchen, they could negotiate. Guess what, can't really do that so much with the President, can you? Don't really have the democratic and republican parties sitting in your kitchen, do you? We are presented candidates not based on who is best for the country, but who blows who and how well, without the benefit of negotiation. Yeah, we have the primaries, but then, it is still a panel of people from who we have to choose...not like we can randomly pick someone that we think would do a good job and expect them to get more than 1 or maybe 2 votes. The front runners are always the front runners, and it's not the people who have put them there. -S_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #127 August 21, 2002 QuoteWell that's still the Husband's problem. It could have been like this: Wife: Sweety, do you want Lasagna or Spaghetti for dinner? Husband: I don't really like either of those. How about pizza, or maybe I could throw something on the grill. My answer...."How bout a blow job and then I'll take you out somewhere....." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SudsyFist 0 #128 August 21, 2002 QuoteA cop in Seattle just pondered this question for the rest of his life. While wondering how to deal with a disadvantaged member of the population and doing his due diligence of going up the escalation of force ladder one rung at a time, the disadvantaged person took his service pistol and shot him to death. i didn't know rich, but i've several friends in the community who worked with him in his former profession. great linguist, family man, damn tragedy. steve Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottbre 0 #129 August 21, 2002 QuoteStop and think. We are not talking about a husband and wife that can talk to eachother and negotiate...it's an analogy!!! My point wasn't having the option to negotiate, but having the option to take it upon yourself to change the choices you have or present a better choice. "Your mother's full of stupidjuice!" My Art Project Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #130 August 21, 2002 QuoteMy point wasn't having the option to negotiate, but having the option to take it upon yourself to change the choices you have or present a better choice. In the kitchen yes.. Concerning congressman and presidents no.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #131 August 21, 2002 My point wasn't having the option to negotiate, but having the option to take it upon yourself to change the choices you have or present a better choice. ------------- Which is addressed in the rest of my last post. -S_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #132 August 21, 2002 Quote We are presented candidates not based on who is best for the country, but who blows who and how well, without the benefit of negotiation. Yeah, we have the primaries, but then, it is still a panel of people from who we have to choose...not like we can randomly pick someone that we think would do a good job and expect them to get more than 1 or maybe 2 votes. The front runners are always the front runners, and it's not the people who have put them there. So, what's preventing you from getting involved in the party and being one of the blowers/blowees? Yeah, it's harder than saying, "This sucks, I'm just not going to vote." But if you're really bothered by the choices, do something about changing them besides saying there's nothing you can do. Here's another analogy for you. Uh oh...bag lock. Time for plan B. Damn, I have massive line twists on my reserve. Oh well, did everything I could do, guess I'm going in. How about kicking out those line twists, or getting involved in the political process? Funny how this thread took a new direction but it still goes back to the same thing. Stop finger pointing and placing blame. Take some personal responsibility and make the effort to change things. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottbre 0 #133 August 21, 2002 QuoteIn the kitchen yes.. Concerning congressman and presidents no.. Especially when you start by writing off all of government and political processes as a lost cause, ie, not voting. "Your mother's full of stupidjuice!" My Art Project Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #134 August 21, 2002 So, what's preventing you from getting involved in the party and being one of the blowers/blowees? Yeah, it's harder than saying, "This sucks, I'm just not going to vote." But if you're really bothered by the choices, do something about changing them besides saying there's nothing you can do. Here's another analogy for you. Uh oh...bag lock. Time for plan B. Damn, I have massive line twists on my reserve. Oh well, did everything I could do, guess I'm going in. --------- A) Not everyone is cutout for politics...it is not what everyone wants to do with their lives. There are a lot of things that are wrong with this world...that doesn't mean that it is one person's job to go fix it all. There are problems in the corporate world, doesn't mean that I am going to set a goal of being a CEO and fixing it. There are problems with disease...doesn't mean that I am going to become a doctor and try to find a cure for them. B) I'm a 23 year old college student...maybe someday I will be there trying to fix these things that I think are wrong...who knows. C) Your line twist analogy is a good one. My point is that the kicking out of line twists, while necessary, is not, I believe, done by voting. I think that when it comes time to vote, it is already too late. We do not have to give up, but we have to figure out a more effective way of kicking out of our political line twists. -S_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #135 August 21, 2002 Especially when you start by writing off all of government and political processes as a lost cause, ie, not voting. ----------------- Not voting does not lead to the statement that you made. We have tried to explain the reasoning behind the vote vs. not vote, but you don't agree with it...that is fine. What you have done as a result is created a fallacy, linking two seperate issues together, A) not voting and B) writing off the political process. A does not lead to B. I, for one, think that voting is a very important right, but not all that useful when presented with sucky choices, neither of which you would like to see in office). -S_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JDBoston 0 #136 August 21, 2002 The other side of that is that if it doesn't bother you at all that you're killing people, you might take less care/caution to make sure that you're killing the RIGHT people.... thus making people who don't give a shit about killing somewhat LESS effective than people who do.... Joe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #137 August 21, 2002 QuoteEspecially when you start by writing off all of government and political processes as a lost cause, ie, not voting. I'll say it for what the 4th time?? When I see someone worth voting for I will. Segador raises his blade , Rhino perks his ears Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #138 August 21, 2002 Quoteyou might take less care/caution to make sure that you're killing the RIGHT people.. Good point....that has certainly happened plenty of times. Like the Apache pilot in Desert Storm or more recently the F-16 flight in Afghanistan. People get soooo hyped up to go shoot something that they get "trigger happy" That's very dangerous. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottbre 0 #139 August 21, 2002 When you start referring to the effectiveness of the political process by "who blows who," I think it's safe to say that you have written off the political process. QuoteWhen I see someone worth voting for I will. Most people wouldn't know someone "worth voting for" if they were standing right in front of them. Check it out everybody, I can make "meanie" faces too: "Your mother's full of stupidjuice!" My Art Project Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #140 August 21, 2002 QuoteWhen I see someone worth voting for I will. Then quit bitchin' and step up to the plate. Put your money where your mouth is, or sit quietly in corner if you don't want to vote. If you ran, a lot of us would vote. Believe me, we would vote! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #141 August 21, 2002 QuoteThen quit bitchin' and step up to the plate. Put your money where your mouth is Put your dukes up!! Karate chop!! I don't bitch.. I remember slamming the people that are bitching?? I just don't vote. I choose to kill the enemy instead protecting you so you can vote Rhino poised, ready to charge. Sounds of Segador's blade sharpening in the distance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #142 August 21, 2002 QuoteWhen you start referring to the effectiveness of the political process by "who blows who," I think it's safe to say that you have written off the political process. It is the truth.. It's about the dollar in politics. It isn't even about the people anymore. Thus far anytime someone that actually is worth a shit comes up to the plate the rest of the politicians push them out in one way or another. If you think I am wrong feel free to explain.. Our political system SUCKS. It may be the best in the world but it still sucks. I'd choose to serve for my sucky political system over another anyday. So I did. And as far as becoming a politician?? I don't care to be. I like what Marines represent I don't like what politicians represent. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #143 August 21, 2002 When you start referring to the effectiveness of the political process by "who blows who," I think it's safe to say that you have written off the political process. -------------- If you really look at it, just like there are legal monopolies, this is a form of legal anarchy...we don't choose who is in office, the almighty dollar chooses that. If that weren't the case, we would have political science professors, and historians, and people who really know this shit in office, not representatives of corporate America. I think that the political system itsself works, as in person A holds this position, and does this job, person B holds this position and does this job, persons C-N hold these positions and do these jobs. The problem that I see is WHO we have filling the positions. In theory, an engine works...if you build it with the wrong parts, though, there is a problem. -S_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #144 August 21, 2002 Morning, JG, thanks for answering! QuoteI do feel however that blacks in America are owed at least a decent education How would reparations accomplish this?Quotethere are plenty of children living in squallor with 1 or no parents who look to criminals for role models these are the people I feel who are owed something How will reparations accomplish this? Personally, I am glad you're not hoping I open my checkbook - it is pretty spare and sad looking. Furthermore, I have no medical insurance, I don't own any land, and I am behind on my car payments. How will taking my last $20 (in the form of a government special levy to go to the till of reparations, should it come to that) do anything for anyone? I'd rather give it to you, JG, should you need it more than me...or should I owe you it to you in any way. What my biggest problem with reparations is that I honestly don't feel like I owe anyone anything, and no-one owes me anything either. I am a minority (female), uneducated (parents couldn't afford college for me, and I didn't have the grades to get a scholarship; public school before that). I have "suffered" discrimination, in the shape of mysogeny and religious hatred (my father is a Jew). My father's side of the family came here in the late 1800's, and my mother's family came here in the mid-1800's. My birthmother's family came here as irish indentured in the early 1700's...and intermarried with the Cherokee nation somewhere down the line...etc., etc., etc... Here's another question: how will reparations create anything of value, anything which will benefit anyone other than an immediate infusion of cash? How will it change the educational system, support single mothers in finding better role models, and change the DWB issue you mentioned? How will it do anything other than further divide and separate, and create additional conflict and anger? And if it does create value, is the value created more than the detrimental aspects? How about spending as much time finding a solution to the actual issues which face our country today as we do blaming our country for something which ended 150 years ago? And just a note here regarding voting, voting rights, and exercising those rights: Women didn't get the right to vote for a very long time after this country adopted the voting system...and yes, I exercise that right each and every time it comes around...and make my voice heard, in chorus with many others who feel the same way. Whether or not the pol's listen to the American Chorus is the difference between relection and defeat... Just my .02 this morning, and thanks for listening! Ciels and Pinks- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #145 August 21, 2002 QuoteI do feel however that blacks in America are owed at least a decent education EARN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nothing is free!!!! No one is OWED a damn thing. You want a handout go to the local food bank. @#$T!#$T %^U&HJ@$V!#R!$T%YTGRVRE!$##%!@T@%F!##GT^%&Y%^#Y#@QGFF@%T$^&Y#$G!#$^#^RF#!EW Rhino breathing heavily while Segador douses the flames on his back with ice water.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #146 August 21, 2002 Rhino, You are missing the point here. You are slamming our political system as ineffective and revolving around the dollar, yet you don't lift a finger to change things. It would be easy to dismiss you as irrelevant, because you choose not to vote. Believe me, if you don't vote, the politicians do dismiss you completely. You just became a non-entity in their eyes, so what you say makes no difference. Serving in the military is completely irrelevant to voting. They are separate issues. You could be an incredibly patriotic, flag-waving, hard-core Marine, but you mean less to the running of the government than a drunk homeless person that straggles in to vote. Homeless person - 1 : Rhino - 0. For what it is worth to you, I decided to serve my country as well. I enlisted in the Army. And when the elections came, I filled out my absentee ballot and was counted. This relates to a lot of threads I've seen here. It is very easy to point fingers and say, "They suck" or "that blows" or "I could do that better than them", but much harder to actually put in any effort to make it better. I'm really not trying to pick on you unduly, Rhino. I'm just trying to make the point that voting is important, and a key part of making a difference in this country. Money helps too, but only as a means of influencing votes. Effort and energy can help swing votes too, and they don't cost anything besides time. Even if you have no money, you still get one vote, so it is important to use it. Using your right to vote is pretty connected to your unofficial right to complain. Skip on one, and you've waived the other. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottbre 0 #147 August 21, 2002 Beautifully put. "Your mother's full of stupidjuice!" My Art Project Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #148 August 21, 2002 Ok, so let me get this right... You are presented with effectively 2 choices, neither of whom you would like to see in office, because you think that they both suck. Scenario 1: I vote for person A, even though I think he sucks. Now, I can complain about anything I want, because I voted for someone that I didn't think should be in office in the first place, but was the lesser of two evils. Scenario 2: I vote for person B. Refer to rules of complaining listed in scenario 1. Scenario 3: I choose not to vote, because it really makes no difference to me who is in office, because I think they both suck. By not choosing one of them, though, even though I think he sucks, and doesn't deserve my vote anyway, I have now waved my right to express my opinion that he sucks. I'm sorry, I don't think that I will ever understand/appreciate this point of view. -S_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #149 August 21, 2002 No, I never miss a point.. I may not agree with your point of view but I am not missing the point. Voting is not key.. Voting for good people is key.. Right now it is a waste of my time. QuoteServing in the military is completely irrelevant to voting. They are separate issues. You could be an incredibly patriotic, flag-waving, hard-core Marine, but you mean less to the running of the government than a drunk homeless person that straggles in to vote. I disagree... As long as I can look my son in the eyes and say I fought for your right to be free that is what counts. Not voting for a bunch of assholes that are just trying to serve another term and live the cush life.. Serving in the military is TWICE as important as voting.. Without those who have done exactly that no one would have the right to vote.. It's the truth, like it or not. And it isn't a separate issue.. It is about doing what you can do for your country. Using my brain, analyzing the situation I realized voting was a waste of my time.. Serving was not. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottbre 0 #150 August 21, 2002 Dammit! Why can't I stay out of this? Last I heard, you aren't limited to voting for one of two people. Maybe Perot was just in my imagination alone. (If that's the case maybe I should write for SNL as I must have imagined tons of the episodes that I remember.) You can vote for anyone you want. "Your mother's full of stupidjuice!" My Art Project Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
