skycat 0 #26 August 21, 2002 You know it's totally a catch 22. Students pay the bills and fun jumpers are a pain for the DZOs. So you put your time and effort into the tandems and students. Due to that you run off the fun jumpers but that is cool cause they were a pain anyway. Now you have students coming off student status and the only ones for them to jump with are other students, solos, or maybe a 2 way with an experienced jumper who is out there for 1 reason or another. Well the student soon gets discouraged and either goes to a different DZ or quits jumping, not a big deal they were now a fun jumper and just a pain....right? Well here is where the problem lies, your students of today are your instructors of tomarrow. The students of today are your riggers of tomarrow. The students of today are the future of the sport. So how do you keep the students of today in the sport? You need to "give" them a reason to come out every weekend. In a day of jumping how much time do you spend in the air? 5 Min? 6 Min? What are you doing the rest of the time? Sitting on the ground. Talking to other jumper learning things, getting organization by an experienced jumper, learning how to do 4-ways, 6-ways, 20-ways. So with no experienced jumpers there other than staff who are to busy with Tandems and Students do you think low time jumpers will stick around? I can answer that cause I've seen alot of people go through AFF then disapper. No, some will find a new DZ but most will quit.Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #27 August 21, 2002 Your explaination explains the catch 22 position. Without 'A', you cannot afford 'B'. With 'A', 'C' leaves and goes to another DZ, leaving a now off student status 'A' to jump with other lowtimers, go to another DZ or quit. This leaves 'D' to make a decision to cutback on 'A's and keep the existing 'B' and draw back more 'C's or buy a bigger 'B' making seats available for the experience 'C's. Now here's where the math comes in. By increasing the size of 'B', the PITA (Pain In The Ass) factor of 'C' increases as a larger plane makes more room for more 'C's and their potential egos. Having more 'C's (admit it, we're all a pain in the ass for the DZO) decreases the the space available for the cash cow 'A's (aka the bill payers), thus decreasing the profit generated by 'B' (big or small). Or have I forgotten that there aren't too many DZO's out there in this business for the love of the sport and they don't care if the bottom line is in the negative column because they only want the experienced business. Now, I have run into a couple DZO's around the country that will pull out their calculators to figure out the exact number of students that need to go through the doors each weekend to keep the DZ doors open. The planes were leased so the did not have the additional expense of aircraft maintenance and that fell back to the plane owner. I'm all for capitalism and understand that the DZO is in business to make money while trying to create a fun enviroment for the experienced crowd. If the experience crowd wants a bigger plane, then the student base needs to increase to pick up the gap in the mortgage payment. If the DZO is succoming to the pressure of buying a larger plane, it is a more prudent business decision to increase the student business first to a level that can support a larger airplane. This allows the DZO to take numbers to the bank (aka financier) and show that the cash flow is there to make the jump to a larger aircraft thus making it easier to obtain a loan. I'm all for bigger airplanes and experience jumpers, but remember to open your mind and to what is involved in the process to make it happen. Not all DZO's are independently wealthy to make all the whims of the experienced crowd happen. And by all means, if you don't like the way a DZ is run, than don't go. Let the DZO know why you're not going there anymore and quite possibly things might change to make your complaint go away. Granted, they may not either and if you're considered too hight maintenance to begin with, it might be a blessing for the remaining experienced people to see you go. They might even throw a party in your honor. Bluez~~~ Michael----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #28 August 21, 2002 You know I'm getting the feel from you that you would be the first one to throw the party. Do you hate other experienced jumpers that come out to Mile-Hi that much?Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #29 August 21, 2002 Fight...Fight...Fight...Fight..... and....BOOBIES... Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #30 August 21, 2002 No, there is no fight.....it's a valid question especially looking at some of his replies. I mean if this is how staff at Mile-hi feels then that is fine, and it really explains why I got nothing but bad vibes when I first moved here a few months ago. I'm sure you remember when I almost quit cause I couldn't stand how mean people were to eachother around here.Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #31 August 21, 2002 I think you're taking my reply completely out of context... There are a few 'grumpy' people who are never nice to be around at the DZ, work, whereever - that - this is the humor part - people would throw a "party" when they are gone. BTW-Jeff (DZO) was giving Peter grief over the weekend because Peter didn't get him one of the t-shirts.----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #32 August 21, 2002 QuoteI'm sure you remember when I almost quit cause I couldn't stand how mean people were to eachother around here. Kelli- I honestly don't even know if we've even met, so I don't recall you pondering leaving the sport. If we've met, I apologize, I don't remember. There are people in this sport in this state that I consider a bad apple. I may catch flack for this, but the former DZO of Denver Skydivers made my list when I went out of my way to advertise several boogies of his on Ground-Rush.com (this included phone calls for clarificiation and such - long distance so money out of my pocket) only to be called an a$$hole by said DZO shortly there after for pointing out inaccuracites on his website to him. BTW, did I mention that this same DZO told me that their third load was taking off so I made the trek from the Tech Center to Brush (almost 3 hours with traffic) to find out the plane had never left the ground all day. Never got an apology, but I did get a "since you're here, just stay and you can jump tomorrow". Sorry, I had to trek back to the Tech Center for an implementation at work the next day. (side note, my contacting the DZO for the Ground-Rush.com stuff was after this incident) When we drove out the the WFFC this year, we stopped in Brush so I could meet the new DZO's. They ended up in Rantoul and camped with the other Colorado crew. I ended up doing two demos with the Randy and Ralph and I am willing at this point to give Denver Skydivers another try and definately will. If I had it in for a DZ in Colorado, it was Denver Skydivers under it's prior management. I have no problems with Front Range and it's about the same driving distance for me to Mile Hi now since I moved to the Southside of the metro area. I also built one of their prior websites. As for bad vibes. Well, sorry that was your experience. I generally go out of my way to make people feel welcome when they're visiting. I go so far as to loan my rig out so that someone can experience jumping at altitude under a bigger canopy than they may have. If you consider this bad vibes, I'll quit doing it. We all have our opinions of the DZ's we jump at and the staff that run them. How we go about communicating issues to the particular staff members is as important as how the staff receives it. Constructive criticism should be taken both directions. Bad vibes exist just as good vibes do. I'll do my part and solicit the three that I know and try to spread the love. Bluez~~~ Michael----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
