An american point of view.

[Canuck278 0]

Hey all...or Ya'll .....anyway i was wondering how many of you guys down south had heard about what is going on with the pilots that dropped a couple laser guided bombs on a canadian regiment doing night exercises in Afganastan... this happened apx 2 months ago..the exercise was known by both sides and the location of it was given to the us forces. However a couple F-16 pilots on return from a mission in wich they saw no action saw the small arms fire..ie rifles down on the ground and asked permission to engage...this was of course the canadian regiment doing their training....the awacs plane came back and told the pilots not to engage....however the pilots then said they were "rolling in via self defence"....no shots were being fired at them though...the ended up dropping the bombs and killinf 4 Canadain infantry and wounding countless others....The pilots however during their breif were never told of the exercise by their superiors...so they say that someone higher up should take the blunt of the punishment.....they are waiting however to court martial the pilots given the fact they were told not to engage. I have only seen most of the news of this on canadian news ....I wondering what the american public thinks should happen? This isn't a finger pointing thing at the us..i'm in the canadian NAVY and am getting ready to go on a second tour in the gulf next month, and enjoy the fact that i will be helping out my southern brothers in a time of need...and enjoy working with the us military on a regular basis...I'm just curious what the us public thinks about the bombing?

[nws01 0]

I had not heard anything about it.

[hobbes4star 0]

i have heard only a few details. it was only in the news a couple of days. but i belive that if the pilots were given a direct order not to engage than their asses should be in on the line.
just my 0.02

if fun were easy it wouldn't be worth having, right?

[freeflir29 0]

I'm very familiar with the story. Those pilots were in CLEAR violation of the ROE. They should be hung to dry. Yeah....being a fighter pilot is a tough job but it IS A VOLUNTEER position.

[freeflir29 0]

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i belive that if the pilots were given a direct order not to engage

That will probably be debated but the fact remains that the "Flight Lead" is in command. When he made the decision to engage a target he is responsible. Unless it's a "Troops in contact" (Within 1 Kilometer) situation where the "Ground Commander" gives his initials and assumes ALL responsibility for ANYTHING that happens.

[Canuck278 0]

I'm actually not so sure about the ROE thing.....you see if they acctually thought they were being fired at they are they in viotation? What i think it comes down to is that the pilot after returning from a mission in wich he saw no action was looking for a target..and wanted to find one soo bad he didn't think it out properly.

[kmcguffee 0]

I have only heard that the pilots believed they were being fired upon. There was definately a leadership failure no matter how you look at it. They should have known that there was live fire training occuring in the area of their flight plan. Everyone has a right to self defense so If they believed their lives were in danger they should have the right to defend themselves. I think the issue is going to be what caused them to think their life was in danger. If they just saw ground fire and attacked then they should be court martialed. If they saw tracers flying by their aircraft then their leaders should take the brunt of the punishment.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[Canuck278 0]

Nope no tracers....The canadians were also soo busy in the exercise and with all the firing they were doing the first clue that they had that us aircraft was even there was when the first bomb hit...

Steve
Therapy is expensive, popping bubble wrap is cheap.

[kmcguffee 0]

If there was no reason to believe that their life was in danger then they will probably fry along with their chain of command. They violated the ROE and the orders of the AWACS and we don't need them flying combat missions with that type of poor judgement. We'll have to see what facts come out in the investigation.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[Iflyme 0]

My national brother -- suspecting that American's know anything about Canadian news is naive. Our countries' relationship is like that of the elephant and the mouse. The mouse lives in the shadow of the elephant, and is painfully aware of every move the elephant makes ... but the elephant most often isn't even aware the mouse is there.

In general, most Americans know very little about what goes on outside their borders. While the "friendly-fire" deaths of Canadian servicemen is a national tragedy in this country, for Americans, it is of little or no consequence.

Many Americans are so ignorant about their neighbours (and largest trading partner) to the north, many cross the border to visit, thinking they will be visiting eskimos, and hunting polar bears.

A Canadian satire television show (This Hour has 22 Minutes) features a segment called "Talking to Americans. Host Rick Mercer, posing as a journalist, arranged an interview with the governor of Arkansas, Mike Huckabee. He told Huckabee that the Canadian's National Parliament building is a frozen replica of the Capitol in Washington... "The National Igloo". But it was melting because og global warning, so Canada was preserving it. The governor taped a message congratulating Canada on preserving it's national igloo!

[freeflir29 0]

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I'm actually not so sure about the ROE thing.....

I see your point, "The right to self defense is never denied" First line of every ROE card I have ever seen. However, IIRC they were in an area where they "Should" have known about training activities. It will probably come down to whether or not this was in their "Read File" If it was, and they signed off on it, they are fried. If it wasn't...they may squirm out. I think the guy got over zealous in looking for something to shoot and made a horrible mistake. Let's look at it this way....I seriously doubt that pilot will be able to convince ANYONE that he felt his flight was in IMMEDIATE danger from ground fire. It was night, he had no indications of threat radar(I'm betting). That means anything shooting at him would be optically guided and therefor would need a pretty damn LUCKY shot to hit an F-16 cruising around. Plus, per current tactics they were probably around 20,000 Ft. or more. There is no optically guided cannon ADA weapon in the world, that I am aware of, that is effective over about 14,000ft. Now if it had radar a K-19 100MM is good to around 40,000 technically but "not really" So, long story short....the guy wasn't really in any fear for his safety and FUCKED UP. Just my .02C I could be wrong...I wasn't there and all this is pure speculation.

[freeflir29 0]

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While the "friendly-fire" deaths of Canadian servicemen is a national tragedy in this country, for Americans, it is of little or no consequence.

Uuummm...we killed some of our own through fratricide in Afghanistan too. It didn't get a whole lot of press either. When my friend was killed by an F-18 pilot last year it only made CNN twice I think. Maybe three times. Same with the deaths of 4 Marines in Vieques a couple years ago and the incident at Ft. Sill, etc, etc ,etc. It's just not a news story that the networks dwell on. It's not that "Americans don't care."

[GrumpySmurf 0]

'Blue on Blue' happens, it sucks - but that is the nature of armed conflict. Most of the Yanks I know heard about it initially but didn't think much of it and have long since forgotten - I am sure the opinion would change sigificantly if the roles were reversed. Odds are, I would guess, that the the pilots will be let off relatively easy in light of the fact that Allied Forces died as a direct result of thier actions.

I guess one could argue that they did disobey orders, but then again, they acted with what they felt was the best course of action in light of limited information provided to them - there could have easily been a few Stingers in amongst those 'hostiles' on the ground - having soldiers who are trained to think on thier own and not rely solely on thier superiors makes for a much more resilent armed force, especially when a link in the chain of command becomes a casualty.

Should they hung out to dry for doing the wrong thing - yes - they are professional officers, they should know what following orders means. Should thier superior(s) be hung out with them - yes, as well, they should provide thier men with sufficient information to make it easier for them accomadate the eventuality of 'no plans survives contact with the enemy'.

[freeflir29 0]

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there could have easily been a few Stingers in amongst those 'hostiles' on the ground

Stingers and EVERY other shoulder fired SAM are pretty much useless in the dark. The target must first be optically aquired by the operator and then he has to press a button to lock on. As soon as he gets a vibration from the cheek pad signifying lock he fires. There are also a HOST of other engagement considerations such as aircraft orientation and firing angle that have to be met for a successful engagement. Older versions of the Stinger and SA-7 require that you cannot engage an aircraft until you can point the sensor at the REAR of the aircraft. The newer ones...can do "nose on" engagements as well as some other cool tricks like discerning between the UV spectrum of a flare and engine heat. I doubt you will find too many new Stingers or SA-14 or 16's in Assramistan. So....once again...I don't think he is going to convince anyone he felt or SHOULD HAVE FELT that he was in immediate danger. At night the only thing that could have threatened him would either be a lucky shot or a radar guided system. He would have proof through the aircraft systems if anything radar guided painted him.

[hobbes4star 0]

damn clay actually sounded like he knew what he was talking about.

if fun were easy it wouldn't be worth having, right?

[freeflir29 0]

PS...if you can't tell already...I spent a "little" time studying aircraft and ADA system capabilities during my 10 years in the Air Force...... Talk about geeks.....

[billvon 3,120]

>In general, most Americans know very little about what goes on
> outside their borders.

Generally true; but then again, Canadians in general don't know much about their other closest neighbor, Greenland. I talked to one Canadian this summer who thought Iceland was north of Greenland! ("it must be; it's colder.") And I will bet that you're closer to Greenland than I am to you.

Ignorance is not confined to any one country; all countries seem to have their share.