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skymama

What would you do?

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You're right - nowhere in the orignal post was there any mention of terrorists - I got caught up in that semi-hijacked part of the thread. And I guess I've got too much 9/11 on my mind as there certainly are terrorists other than Muslim. In fact, I'd like to take the word Muslim out of there all together. As it was pointed out earlier, the kind of evil we saw on 9/11 is some people's very twisted version of Islam.

Brisco

Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.

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I can't help but wonder why you assumed that the captors here are Muslim.



This is a hypothetical scenario, much has been left to the imagination. In my own personal take on this my captors are actually bitter former Playmates who feel cheated for having lost the "Playmate of the Year" title, even after having slept with Hefner!

Oh yeah, I can't help but wonder why you would assume all towel headed scumbags are Muslim. :o

FallRate

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>Say you're being held hostage with some other people. Your captors
> tell you that you have to shoot a person, or 10 people will die. What
> would you do?

I would refuse. There is, and always will be, evil in this world. All I can do is make sure that none of that evil is coming from me.

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>most terrorist acts in the past 20-odd years (yeah, yeah, I know -
> Tim McVeigh wasn't Muslim - just crazy) happened to be perpetrated
> by Muslims . . .

Well, except perhaps terrorist acts by the Israelis. And the Yugoslavs. (Or was that just genocide and not terrorism?) And the ELN and FARC in Colombia. And the various factions of the IRA like the RIRA. I know, I know, they all look like us, so it's hard to profile them.

On the other hand, there's always the North Koreans; they're easy to profile. And since they are, according to our goverment, in the same league as Al Quaeda, looks like we better start profiling all Asians (asking Americans to distinguish Koreans from Chinese or Japanese is probably asking a lot.)

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I would refuse. There is, and always will be, evil in this world. All I can do is make sure that none of that evil is coming from me.



Yeah, me too. I just couldn't do it. Fuck John Stuart Mill, at least in this situation.
Skydiving is for cool people only

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Fallrate, this is a possible scenario. Remember that eco-challenge race where one team of entrants was 3 playmates and a former Navy Seal. The start of the race was fun, but a couple of days into it, they realized that this was not a "hairspray and nails" public appearance. They bitched the entire rest of the race. I thought they were going to take him hostage. Would you try to escape ?;)

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Your captors tell you that you have to shoot a person, or 10 people will die. What would you do?



Shoot yourself in the head. You'd be in no state to worry about the dilemma then.
Gerb

I stir feelings in others they themselves don't understand. KA'CHOW !

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Depends on who "some other people" are :P
- Familiy: Only if they are rich and I'm in their will.
- Politicians:Only if he/she has broken a promise.
- Lawyer: Who need'em?
- Police Officer: OK! I spear the lawyer and hire him to defend me for killing a cop.
- Osama bin Laden: No, why shoot him. I'd just yell "hey, it's Osama!" and let all the others have the pleasure of killing him. While the captors and other hostages are busy killing Osama, I'll escape through the door.
- Priest: "Hey, wanna meet your creator?"
- Jesus: He has died before, but still lives. What difference would it make?
- Celine Dion: No comment.
There are lot's of options. (ps. please don't take any of the above serious.)

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>- Police Officer: OK! I spear the lawyer and hire him to defend me for killing a cop.

What good is the lawyer going to do to you with his guts splattered on the floor:o:D


spear
verb [T]
The hunters speared the antelope (=threw or put a spear into it) through its neck.
They catch the fish by spearing them.

spare (SAVE)
verb [T]
not to hurt or destroy (something or someone)
The enemy killed all the men, but spared the women and children.


Sorry, couldn't resist...:)

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As it was pointed out earlier, the kind of evil we saw on 9/11 is some people's very twisted version of Islam.


Agreed. Lately, I have been understanding humanity like this: the potential for the greatest good and the greatest evil exist in every single one of us. What one person can do, so can all others. Therefore, no person is inherently more good or more evil than anyone else. Likewise with different races. There are wonderful people in each and there are wretched people in each. Sometimes it just becomes too easy to focus on the bad.
A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

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Well, the one thing that gives me hope is something I heard years ago from a radio talk-show host - he pointed out that what is "NEWS" is the unusual, the rare, the different. We don't often hear the "good things" on the news, just the bad, which is the unusual. Unfortunately, we get a 24 hour bombardment of news these days.
Screw the news - let's all go skydiving!!

Brisco

Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.

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"each and there are wretched people in each. "
Yes, and when a group of wretched people band together and identify themselves as a nation and do something very bad, then we go to their little wretched nation and exterminate them as an example to other wretched people who think about doing bad things. Some peoples' sole purpose is to be an example to others.
People think about the risk/benefit of an action. The first WTC car bomb attack had no retaliation. Therefore, no risk. If the risk becomes bombing into a dust pile, then maybe the risk will be too high for other like-minded people.

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Just like that article on howstuffworks.com about skydiving that somebody linked to from here. One of the frequently asked questions there was about how safe is skydiving. They made the point that lots of people die every day from car accidents, and under 50 die from skydiving each year. Since you can publisize the skydiving deaths, they show up in the news. Since there are too many auto-related deaths, they don't.
A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

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Yes, and when a group of wretched people band together and identify themselves as a nation and do something very bad, then we go to their little wretched nation and
exterminate them as an example to other wretched people who think about doing bad things. Some peoples' sole purpose is to be an example to others.



Perhaps I am being mislead by your wording, but do I understand then that, being part of the nation of Afghanistan, every single Afghani should be exterminated to make an example of the organization that exploited them? We should even exterminate the Afghani women who were forced by this organization to cover their bodies in public under penalty of beating?
A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

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First, you talk about an innocent group of Afghani women. You mean like all the innocent women in the twin towers? Are we talking about fair treatment for non-combatants ? Everyone in the twin towers was a non-combatant.
The Chinese discovered centuries ago that no one operates in a vacuum. If you were a revolutionary, someone knew about it. If you were caught, everyone in your family, down to first cousins was killed. Know what happened ? Things calmed down. So, if you are in XXX country and someone says "hey, let's attack the US" maybe their friends will say "we don't like that idea". The powers that be in Afghanistan supported it. Perhaps the people in XXX country will say "I don't want everyone I know to die. Bad idea". Make a poor decision - your wife, kids, neighbors, puppies...
Someone has committed an atrocity and expects fair treatment ? Sorry.

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If you were caught, everyone in your family, down to first cousins was killed. Know what happened ? Things calmed down.




That is an appropriate response to terrorists killing innocent people???? Where's the line the define US from them? Seems to me that your solution only makes us stoop to their level.
Also, by your same reasoning, you are justifying their right to come blow our military families to bits. WHERE does it end?

and the bigger question is, WHY the heck am I even bothering to reply in a political thread?
I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1

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This seems like a lose lose situation. So I hope I would have the guts to handle it this way:

Act like I am going to shoot a hostage, last second turn the gun on the captors and shoot. I will most likely get shot, but hopefully it would cause enough of a distraction for the other hostages to take over the situation.



_________________________________________
Chris






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"That is an appropriate response to terrorists killing innocent people????" Yep. "... makes us stoop to their level. " Sometimes reality just ain't pretty.
"WHERE does it end? " War is unfair, innocents get hurt. War ends on the day when they think it is a bad idea.

If a bank robber holds up a bank, shoots some people, the cops shoot him. Did the cop stoop to his level ? In order to keep bad people from doing bad things, you have to make the risk/benefit ratio really poor. Right now, either Osama is dead or a country is knowingly harboring him. Maybe they should think that is a bad idea.

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Basically you want to bomb all the countries, from which one terrorist is caught, to stoneage?

>First, you talk about an innocent group of Afghani women. You mean
> like all the innocent women in the twin towers? Are we talking about
>fair treatment for non-combatants ? Everyone in the twin towers was a
> non-combatant.

So when they kill innocents, you suddenly also have the right to kill innocents? So who do you have the right to kill? Anyone in Afghanistan? Anyone belonging to one of the cross-border ethnic groups in the country? Anyone in the eastern hemisphere? Any muslim?

>The Chinese discovered centuries ago that no one operates in a
>vacuum. If you were a revolutionary, someone knew about it. If you
>were caught, everyone in your family, down to first cousins was killed.
>Know what happened ? Things calmed down.

Yeah, and since then we some of us got civilized... Would you like a government ike that in the US? You know, if some country treated it's citizens like that, the US would go storming in defending human rights and the western civilization. But if the US decides to treat another country like that, it's ok?

>Someone has committed an atrocity and expects fair treatment ? Sorry.

Exactly - someone - You can't punish a nation for the deeds of an individual! Sheesh...

Erno

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First, you talk about an innocent group of Afghani women. You mean like all the innocent women in the twin towers? Are we talking about fair treatment for non-combatants ? Everyone in the twin towers was a non-combatant.



You tell me what we're talking about, as you raised the objection. What I'm hearing you say is that if the leadership of a nation does something that you do not agree with, we should exterminate every last citizen of that nation.

And Lummy makes a great point: You are suggesting that if people band together as a nation and do something wretched, we should go and obliterate them. Isn't this exactly what al Queda did on 9/11? They saw a group of people band together as a nation doing things that they considered wretched, and undertook to obliterate them. Your logic here does not hold al Queda accountable for 9/11, your logic actually justifies 9/11.

Therefore, my point stands: no person and no society is inherently better than any other.
A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

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