wildblue 7 #151 September 13, 2002 QuoteWhile it may be too late for one person, another person may be saved when they recall us flaming each other over what some of us consider a senseless death, and decide not to jump when they are still drunk/stoned/whatever. You obviously have more faith in the human race than I. People die and kill other people all the time while drinking and driving. We call them idiots, sometimes put them in jail, take away their license, whatever.... and yet people still continue to do it.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #152 September 13, 2002 Quote So being an S&TA or holding an AFF rating (or any instructional rating for that matter) automatically means the person holding it will never make a mistake and has perfect judgement? Riiiiight. Yes Lisa! Call me an asshole, but I demand perfect judgement from these people! Just like I demand that a cop be straight, my pharmacist gives me my correct medicines and that my priest will not @$$rape children. This is not any different. An AFF/I is fulfilling an important role in skydiving, and that role requires not having a high level of drugs in one's system. I'm sorry I'm being pigheaded about this but no amount of babbling by anybody is going to convince me otherwise. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #153 September 13, 2002 QuoteI demand perfect judgement from these people! Just like I demand that a cop be straight, my pharmacist gives me my correct medicines and that my priest will not @$$rape children. This is not any different. It's not? Do you think we should have random morality, intelligence, and pedophilia tendency testing for all? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #154 September 13, 2002 QuoteDid the reporter dream up this? I don't know. I don't see any quotations from the toxicology report. I don't see any quotes from the medical examiner. I don't see any quotes from people who saw the jumper in a "seriously impaired" state prior to the jump. All I see is the reporter asserting "serious" impairment. Umm.... prove it. Passmore died because he made a series of poor decisions. Perhaps smoking a fattie that morning was the beginning of the "chain", perhaps not. Had he broken that chain of bad decisions at any point prior to initiating his final low turn he might still be with us today. QuoteI just thank God that Passmore killed himself and take anyone else out with him. Harsh. Haven't lost any friends to poor decisions yet, have you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #155 September 13, 2002 Kev: We do already. You have to take an intelligence test for lots of jobs. You have to pee in a cup for lots of jobs. To work for the FBI, you can't imagine all the crap you have to go to in order to work there. Are DZ's above the law? No. Are the 3 inches of waivers going to protect a DZO against the FAA or a DA coming at them? Well of course not! Do people screw up? Well of course they do. So, does anyone want to place a bet to see which DZ shuts down first because of a drug-abuse lawsuit? ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #156 September 13, 2002 Quote Harsh. Haven't lost any friends to poor decisions yet, have you? Yes. I've lost too many friends to bother counting. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #157 September 13, 2002 I think that this situation was beyond the level of a small mistake. We all make small mistakes and try to learn from them, instructors included. They deserve that much slack as much as I do. This was another league entirely. We weren't discussing the merits of doing a low turn to avoid powerlines. We weren't talking about pros and cons of RSLs. It wasn't an issue of canopy transfer vs. low cutaway. All of those issues can be debated with pros and cons on both sides of each decision. The issue of "Should I jump while stoned?" shouldn't be in the brain of any responsible jumper (let alone instructor) for more than the half a second required to decide that it is absurd. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #158 September 13, 2002 QuoteI demand perfect judgement from these people! I don't agree with you (NOBODY has perfect judgement, imho), but okay. How do you go about assuring this before rating someone? Background checks? Psych testing? IQ tests? Quoteno amount of babbling by anybody is going to convince me otherwise. Then perhaps it's time you walk away from this thread. You've begun to repeat yourself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,545 #159 September 13, 2002 Yes Lisa! Call me an asshole, but I demand perfect judgement from these people! ------- Of course, we've never seen a case where two experienced instructors disagreed about something, have we? Who determines perfect judgement? Ever had a teacher in school give you a wrong answer? Of course, some issues in skydiving result in death. But there are lots of things where that's the case. Ever made a mistake driving? I fully support your desire not to be instructed by someone who toked up or snorted or drank that morning. Really. I don't think that kind of thing belongs among instructors, because the averages indicate those things will possibly impair their judgement. But people can make bad decisions when straight, and good ones when fucked up.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #160 September 13, 2002 Sigh. Okay, I've been on this for too long. I will leave with this parting message. DO NOT board the same aircraft with me and smell like pot from head to toe. You life and your physical appearance will find itself irrevocably altered if you do. *click.* ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #161 September 13, 2002 [thud] neeeeiiiiiggghhh [thud] neiih [thud][thud] ... [thud] ... [thud][thud][whack][pow][thud]it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #162 September 13, 2002 QuoteI completely agree. But I don't think random drug testing is a good response to this. If there's reason to believe that someone's performance is lacking due to drug use, that's one thing. But random testing is completely different. I don't care what the job is or who it might effect. Unless you have reason to doubt my veracity, don't force me to give you my body fluids. In a land with too many attorneys, random testing is almost equal to preventative maintenance. Just because everything seems normal with no issues, doesn't mean that there couldn't be a potential problem down the road. Isn't it better to be aware of something and address it before something worse comes along? Michael----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #163 September 13, 2002 QuoteThen perhaps it's time you walk away from this thread. Lisa, But then again, we are seeing repeated assertions that shift blame all over the place and give the false impression about the risks of drugs and skydiving. Rather than second guess the medical examiner, the newspaper, the eyewitnesses, could it possibly be that this was simply due to colossal foolishness? Everything does not have to be a media/government conspiracy or a vendetta against SDC. Sometimes, things simply are what they appear to be. If you want, call me Drug Safety Nazi #1. I'm not against them all, but think that skydiving and drugs are a very bad combination. I guess common sense isn't that common. ~ DSN #1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #164 September 13, 2002 QuoteYou have to take an intelligence test for lots of jobs. You have to pee in a cup for lots of jobs. To work for the FBI, you can't imagine all the crap you have to go to in order to work there. It sounds to me like you're talking about initial screening which is applied fairly and equitably to everyone in that same position. I'm talking about ransom screening. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #165 September 13, 2002 QuoteIn a land with too many attorneys, random testing is almost equal to preventative maintenance. Just because everything seems normal with no issues, doesn't mean that there couldn't be a potential problem down the road. Isn't it better to be aware of something and address it before something worse comes along? No, that's called limiting freedoms and invasion of privacy. One of the nice things about this country is an assumption of innocence. By randomly checking someone for drugs with no reasonable basis for doing so, you are destroying that assumption. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #166 September 13, 2002 QuoteWhile it may be too late for one person, another person may be saved when they recall us flaming each other over what some of us consider a senseless death, and decide not to jump when they are still drunk/stoned/whatever. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You obviously have more faith in the human race than I. People die and kill other people all the time while drinking and driving. We call them idiots, sometimes put them in jail, take away their license, whatever.... and yet people still continue to do it. Wildblue, I'm not naive enough to think that most people will easily learn from the mistakes of others. But if 99 repeat them and 1 learns from it, hey, we just saved 1. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sebazz1 2 #167 September 13, 2002 Should someone jump while under the influence of any drugs... NO! Should the accident in Chicago be blamed strictly on drugs... NO! Should all JM's be randomly drug tested... NO! Are Leaders, Priests, Role Models, Engineers, Phsycologists, Scientists, Doctors, Pilots, Policemen, etc all PERFECT... Dudes we are human! This thread started with a jumper making a bad decision. The tests indicate he had pot in his system... That is all it is. That is all it is. Speculate is all we can do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #168 September 13, 2002 FYI...I'm sniffing glue right now Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christoofar 0 #169 September 13, 2002 QuoteShould someone jump while under the influence of any drugs... NO! Should the accident in Chicago be blamed strictly on drugs... NO! Should all JM's be randomly drug tested... NO! Are Leaders, Priests, Role Models, Engineers, Phsycologists, Scientists, Doctors, Pilots, Policemen, etc all PERFECT... Dudes we are human! This thread started with a jumper making a bad decision. The tests indicate he had pot in his system... That is all it is. That is all it is. Speculate is all we can do. That jizz on Monica's blue dress... space aliens could have put that there. (OK sorry I'll leave now!!! ) ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jlmiracle 7 #170 September 13, 2002 QuoteShould someone jump while under the influence of any drugs... NO! Should the accident in Chicago be blamed strictly on drugs... NO! Should all JM's be randomly drug tested... NO! Are Leaders, Priests, Role Models, Engineers, Phsycologists, Scientists, Doctors, Pilots, Policemen, etc all PERFECT... Dudes we are human! This thread started with a jumper making a bad decision. The tests indicate he had pot in his system... That is all it is. That is all it is. Speculate is all we can do. You forgot one Should you turn too low to the ground - NO! NO! NO! JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Sebazz1 2 #171 September 13, 2002 QuoteShould you turn too low to the ground - NO! NO! NO! Yuppers... QuoteFYI - I'm sniffing glue right now Dude that's for putting the wings back on the plane, leave it alone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyMissy 0 #172 September 13, 2002 I could really care less if someone wants to test me before they let me JM them, but I doubt USPA's really gonna spring for it. I'm confident that my DZO isn't going to, and I'm Positive that I'm not paying. So........________________________________________________ Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #173 September 13, 2002 QuoteBut then again, we are seeing repeated assertions that shift blame all over the place and give the false impression about the risks of drugs and skydiving. Only the deceased knows why he made the decisions that led to his death. I'm asserting that it was a series of decisions that caused the fatality. He may or may not have smoked pot prior to the jump - it wasn't the pot that killed him even if he did. What killed him was making a low turn over the pond. Did smoking a fattie that morning cause him to make that low turn? We'll never know that. Does the fact that he may have smoked a fattie that morning make him a bad person who deserved to die? I don't think so. Quoteskydiving and drugs are a very bad combination I agree wholeheartedly. I don't jump impaired - not even after a half a beer - and I don't jump with people who are obviously under the influence of something. What I do after the beer light comes on is my business, and I don't let it affect what I do when the sun is shining - if I'm still feeling the effects of last night I'm not getting on the plane this morning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WFFC 1 #174 September 13, 2002 OK. Let's try this. Would you rather strap your significant other/child/brother/sister/friend to the front of a TM that you know is drug free and is a very competent individual, or strap them to a known over abuser (also a friend mind you) of the weed but also a very competent individual. With a substance that has been proven to impair one's abilities, I know what I'd choose. I guess what I'm trying to bring across is this, if you are responsible for the safety of others, shouldn't you do the responsible thing and not bring items into your personal or work life that will put others at risk? Just because someone might have an alcohol problem and they're watching the kids one day doesn't mean they're not going to take the kids to the bar, have a few and then try not to wrap themselves around a telephone pole on the way home. It's called responsibility - Try it. Michael----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #175 September 13, 2002 "It's called responsibility - Try it. " All right, who let the adult in. Just kidding, I totally agree with you and was trying to avoid getting sucked into this thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 7 of 8 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Sebazz1 2 #167 September 13, 2002 Should someone jump while under the influence of any drugs... NO! Should the accident in Chicago be blamed strictly on drugs... NO! Should all JM's be randomly drug tested... NO! Are Leaders, Priests, Role Models, Engineers, Phsycologists, Scientists, Doctors, Pilots, Policemen, etc all PERFECT... Dudes we are human! This thread started with a jumper making a bad decision. The tests indicate he had pot in his system... That is all it is. That is all it is. Speculate is all we can do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #168 September 13, 2002 FYI...I'm sniffing glue right now Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #169 September 13, 2002 QuoteShould someone jump while under the influence of any drugs... NO! Should the accident in Chicago be blamed strictly on drugs... NO! Should all JM's be randomly drug tested... NO! Are Leaders, Priests, Role Models, Engineers, Phsycologists, Scientists, Doctors, Pilots, Policemen, etc all PERFECT... Dudes we are human! This thread started with a jumper making a bad decision. The tests indicate he had pot in his system... That is all it is. That is all it is. Speculate is all we can do. That jizz on Monica's blue dress... space aliens could have put that there. (OK sorry I'll leave now!!! ) ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #170 September 13, 2002 QuoteShould someone jump while under the influence of any drugs... NO! Should the accident in Chicago be blamed strictly on drugs... NO! Should all JM's be randomly drug tested... NO! Are Leaders, Priests, Role Models, Engineers, Phsycologists, Scientists, Doctors, Pilots, Policemen, etc all PERFECT... Dudes we are human! This thread started with a jumper making a bad decision. The tests indicate he had pot in his system... That is all it is. That is all it is. Speculate is all we can do. You forgot one Should you turn too low to the ground - NO! NO! NO! JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sebazz1 2 #171 September 13, 2002 QuoteShould you turn too low to the ground - NO! NO! NO! Yuppers... QuoteFYI - I'm sniffing glue right now Dude that's for putting the wings back on the plane, leave it alone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyMissy 0 #172 September 13, 2002 I could really care less if someone wants to test me before they let me JM them, but I doubt USPA's really gonna spring for it. I'm confident that my DZO isn't going to, and I'm Positive that I'm not paying. So........________________________________________________ Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #173 September 13, 2002 QuoteBut then again, we are seeing repeated assertions that shift blame all over the place and give the false impression about the risks of drugs and skydiving. Only the deceased knows why he made the decisions that led to his death. I'm asserting that it was a series of decisions that caused the fatality. He may or may not have smoked pot prior to the jump - it wasn't the pot that killed him even if he did. What killed him was making a low turn over the pond. Did smoking a fattie that morning cause him to make that low turn? We'll never know that. Does the fact that he may have smoked a fattie that morning make him a bad person who deserved to die? I don't think so. Quoteskydiving and drugs are a very bad combination I agree wholeheartedly. I don't jump impaired - not even after a half a beer - and I don't jump with people who are obviously under the influence of something. What I do after the beer light comes on is my business, and I don't let it affect what I do when the sun is shining - if I'm still feeling the effects of last night I'm not getting on the plane this morning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WFFC 1 #174 September 13, 2002 OK. Let's try this. Would you rather strap your significant other/child/brother/sister/friend to the front of a TM that you know is drug free and is a very competent individual, or strap them to a known over abuser (also a friend mind you) of the weed but also a very competent individual. With a substance that has been proven to impair one's abilities, I know what I'd choose. I guess what I'm trying to bring across is this, if you are responsible for the safety of others, shouldn't you do the responsible thing and not bring items into your personal or work life that will put others at risk? Just because someone might have an alcohol problem and they're watching the kids one day doesn't mean they're not going to take the kids to the bar, have a few and then try not to wrap themselves around a telephone pole on the way home. It's called responsibility - Try it. Michael----- ~~~Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #175 September 13, 2002 "It's called responsibility - Try it. " All right, who let the adult in. Just kidding, I totally agree with you and was trying to avoid getting sucked into this thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
