Golden Knights?should they?

[hottamaly 1]

While reading the "tid-bit" portion of the nationals, there seems to be quite a discussion about the GK's and if they should be allowed to compete with civilians and other issues. So, I thought with this diversified group here I'd ask the same question. running to hide behind door

Skydiving gave me a reason to live
I'm not afraid of what I'll miss when I die...I'm afraid of what I'll miss as I live

[bbarnhouse 0]

Good question. So I'll answer with another....why shouldn't they?

BB stirs the pot*

[wildblue 7]

I see nothing wrong with it. People get pissed because they're using our tax dollars. Well, we spend tax $$ on some pretty stupid things. I think the GKs do a pretty good job being amassadors or our sport and the army. It's good PR, good publicity (for us and them) .... what's the big deal? Do they have an advantage? Probably. But hey, you go join the army and serve your country, and you could be a GK too.
I guess some people have had bad experiences with them (egos are too big) but other people say that's not the case at all. I dunno.... the one time I actually met some of them, they did their whole show (complete with intentional cut-away) into our DZ, and were more than happy to chat for awhile even though they had other places to be. Seemed like ok guys to me.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[hottamaly 1]

some folks have the opinion that our tax dollars would be better used somewhewre else. I personally think the Knights are also there to recruit for the Army. Why shouldn't they get to compete with us?

[bbarnhouse 0]

advantage? please tell me just what advantage do they have? Other teams have sponsorship that allows them to jump everyday mutiple times, gear, travel, suits, personal trainers, gyms and so on...

I would rather see my tax $$ being spent on promoting our sport and these fine athletes......than wasted on a $355 toilet seat. Additionally........should Army and Navy be allowed to play football? Should we have the Blue Angels? Gimme a break here.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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advantage? please tell me just what advantage do they have?

Paychecks, medical/dental benifits, life insurance, paychecks if they get injured and cannot jump anymore, paid holidays, paid vacations, uniform allowance, room and board, etc.

I have had the oppurtunity to see the GK's w/o the public around and they don't impress me. They always are careful when around the public, out of the publics eye is a different story. There is a reason cameras are not allowed at try-outs.

Hook

[wildblue 7]

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advantage? please tell me just what advantage do they have? Other teams have sponsorship that allows them to jump everyday mutiple times, gear, travel, suits, personal trainers, gyms and so on...

They don't have to find a sponser or keep them happy. They get a billion dollar wind tunnel to play in all the time. It's their job (How much do the members of Majik or Ranch Tribe or Airspeed or Elsinore Adrenaline get paid while they're training?)

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[bbarnhouse 0]

Um correct me if I am wrong hook.........but seems to me there are a few "other" teams that have the same minus room and board.
As to "they don't impress me much" there are very few people that do.
Lance Armstrong........he impressed me.......MUCH

[wildblue 7]

Easy there Bets.... read the first line of my post again: "I see nothing wrong with it."

I have no problem with tax money being spent there, or for the Thunder Birds, Blue Angels, etc. I think it's great for military PR, it "shows off" the talent and power of our military. In the process, the GKs make our sport look good. I was just explain that *some people* (not me) have a problem with it, and trying to give some of the reasons I've heard.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[Hooknswoop 19]

Name one team that receives a salary even close to to what the GK's are paid. I hung out w/ a top-ranked 4-way competetor. He had to pop the hood of his car to start it. Each time we stopped at a toll booth, he would pop the hood, get out throw the $$ in the basket, re-start the car, hop back in and go. He lived in the bunk house and worked 7 days a week. The GK's don't have to coach other teams, do AFF or tandems to pay for their training or conduct tunnel camps. No other U.S. team comes close to having the financial backing the GK's do.

Hook

[bbarnhouse 0]

Wild I am just pointing out the facts. Teams such as AS do have people that do work for them and garner sponsorship. Yes they have incomes......skydiving is their job. I understand that "some" people have issues with it, and perhaps they wouldnt have such an issue if they had all the facts.

[AggieDave 6]

What impresses me is that they (GKs) have all of that and they still have lost competitions and will do so again in the future. Shows a lot of dedication on the part of the civilian teams.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jdhill 0]

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I personally think the Knights are also there to recruit for the Army.

I personally know that they are... they fall under the U.S. Army Recruiting Command...

now to the question...

Should they be allowed to compete? Yes, and as a tax payer, I would expect them to win.

Do they have an edge? Yes, but it has been shown they can be beat.

It's not all gravy...they also have hindrances... they must draw from a pool of volunteers (3 times over... 1st for the Army, 2nd for Airborne School (even if you are already a skydiver), and 3rd for the Knights)... they are rotated out (most of them) so the team is being rebuilt constantly... And the comp team is only a small part of the organization... the demo teams that spend 200+ days a year traveling is the meat and potatoes of the Knights.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[PhreeZone 20]

We have had various jumpers from my DZ go on to high level skydiving (Dan BC, a few Knights, etc), we also had a jumper that went to knights Tryout last year and he came back and said nothing but positives for all of the people involved in the crew. The Demo teams earn their pay by some of the stuff they have to land in, the teams were way more then willing to do coaching at WFFC for free. While they are getting paid they also are making next to nothing in the military to start with.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[mujie96 0]

Go Army. Hooah!
Jess

Just keep swimming...just keep swimming....

[FallingILweenie 0]

I don't think anyone has touched on this:

If Nationals are to determine the very best in our sport, then by all means they should be allowed to compete with civilian teams. If they weren't, the team that wins at Nationals can't be called the true champions because you don't know if they could beat a team that isn't allowed in.

blue skies
Tomas

[bbarnhouse 0]

Good point FW. Furthermore.........the Olympics used to exclude "Professional" athletes.

[flyhi 24]

They say that by allowing the Dream Team to play in international competition, the level of basketball throughout the world was elevated. And this year, the USA lost. Soundly. Maybe the GK's just by their presence, did the same thing for formation skydiving.

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Additionally........should Army and Navy be allowed to play football?

If you've seen either team lately, the answer to that would be a resounding, "No!".

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Lance Armstrong........he impressed me.......MUCH

It's the lycra, isn't it?

"These things are so tight, you can tell my religion."
- Robin Williams

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[bbarnhouse 0]

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It's the lycra sin't it?

Well the lycra helps! Actually Lance is in every sense of the word a true Champion, and one heck of a human being. When I look at athletes, I ask myself....would I want my kid to be like them? In Lance's case it was a resounding yes.

[jdhill 0]

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the Olympics used to exclude "Professional" athletes

Not really, both Hockey and Basketball "professionals" play in the olympics

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[bbarnhouse 0]

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Not really

If you re-read my post.......you will see that I stated "used to".

[jdhill 0]

my bad

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[happythoughts 0]

I have great respect of the talent of the GKs. I do think that they have several unfair competitive advantages including their own wind tunnel and plane. Sponsored teams have an unfair advantage over unsponsored teams also. My definition of "fair" - "a place you take pigs in the summer". If I was competing against them and working a job to support my skydiving, yes - I would be bitching - even if sponsored.
However, I think they give back to the sport a tremendous amount. I can't count the times that I asked them questions and got a patient, thought-out response. I've done 4-way scrambles and had them coach me on exits, turns, everything. Whatever they learn, they pass along.
They also improve the image of the sport in the eyes of the public. They are part of the recruiting side of the Army. Part of being chosen is a spotless service record and positive attitude.
Yeah, they have some perks. I expect a few when I work hard so I think it is cool when others get a few. My tax dollars at work and it's ok.

[pyke 0]

Hook, having been raised by the Navy (thanks to Dad) and flown all around the world, I can agree and disagree with you on both sides.

(sound of a box scraping along the ground...Pyke steps up, and begins to speak...)

1) you're right, there isn't a team in the world that has the financial backing, incentives program, advancement structure, or the base salary that the GKs enjoy as being a part of our Armed Forces. Does that make them any more or less than anyone else in the Armed Forces (I know this wasn't your point) NO. Did you know you can join the US Marines, go through boot, and then sit for 4 years in a recruiting station in San Diego, or Hawaii...AND GET PAID for an 8 to 5 no different than anyone else!! Sure, for 3 weeks a year you have to go through further training (assembling M-16s, throwing grenades - FUN SHIT!!), but they're still Marines, and they are still considered our "elite". Would you consider this elite? Hell, I had best friend in H.S. join the Marines as an artist - drawing pictures for the Marines!!! - where does that fall under "elite". What they ARE - is part of a well-oiled machine that kicks into high gear when called upon. Personally, I can't think of a cushier job than to get all that stuff - AND STILL GET TO SKYDIVE (where do I sign up?)!!!! Mind you, they are a very STRONG recruiting tool that our Army uses, but as pointed out before..look at the Blue Angels, the Thunderbirds, etc. Everyone has a recruiting tool! Hell, the firm I work for has one that is equally as ludicrious...and we have over 20 FULL TIME employees just doing that!!! (please, for my sake, don't insinuate I am pro-military....personally hated all the shite I had to go through as a kid, and refused to join - even after going through recruiting - BUT am not knocking those who did sign on the line)
Other teams have it worse off, but they still get to skydive almost all the time. Is that exactly fair? I would love to skydive all the time....I don't see anyone volunteering to pay for my jump tickets (yes, the jealousy is obvious!)

2) On the topic of whether they should be allowed to compete...Sure - YTF not!! Again, as mentioned before...if we don't include everyone who can compete...then how do we know if the best are really the "Best"? I say let the compete...let them try to win (and they sometimes do!), but it goes to show you how when you have all those conveniences behind you - it still comes down to skill, athleticism, and heart!! I have met a few of the GKs (both 'old school' and new) and ALL have been upstanding, friendly, approachable people. Like anyone ("sport, non-professional, professional" skydivers included) they had their share of stories that the public doesn't hear about (and shouldn't!! - contests to see who can hit the center of the peas off the back end of a jeep going 30+mph...and SEVERAL bottles of wine!). These stories don't convey what our sport is about. Think back to this weekend (or any when you weren't at the dz), when your buddies were over enjoying the football game and getting drunk..is that what football is all about?? Certainly not, you don't think of drunken louts when you think about football (some do!)- you think of the game, the plays, the score. Same rule applies. It isn't until you're "indoctrinated" that you learn the "truth" - and then the unspoken, speaks the loudest!!

So, while the flood gates may have been perverbially opened....I stand behind my words (and a really big "shit" shield)....

The GK's are SKYDIVERS - and therefore equals among us - end of story.

Kahurangi e Mahearangi,
Kiwi, RB #926, AFF-I, FAA Snr. Rigger, RN/BSN/Paramedic

[AggieDave 6]

(Psssstttt...Hooknswoop used to be in the Army...)

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."