Pistol packing pilots? P-tew-ee

[kevin922 0]

So according to This the friendly skies may have a few more firearms flying around in them shortly. What do you guys think about pilots carrying guns??

For some reason I find it hard to believe that a pilot can fend off an attacker coming at them from behind, manage to fly the plane, AND keep *THEIR* firearm from getting in the hands of the attacker, thus putting my life in even more danger... Nothing against pilots, they kick ass - at flying not cockpit-to-cockpit dogfights.

[kiltboy 0]

Not too impressed by the air marshal idea as I'd rather security would stop them getting guns/bombs on the plane in the first place.
On a similar note why put a gun on the plane where the bad guy could use it?
Maybe a tazer (sp?) type thing to overpower someone that only has enough power for say ten shots before it needs to be recharged.

[mnischalke 0]

How many of them are prior service pilots? I think the minority who aren't can be easily trained.

They have my life in their hands from the moment we taxi until the moment the chalks hit the tires on the other end. If pilots were armed, Sept. 11 would not have happened. How do you think the string of hijackings in the US in the 70s stopped. Pilots armed themselves. Period. In the 80s, the guns were prohibited and pilots were defenseless once again.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[wlie 0]

I still think that every passenger should be entitled to carry a firearm of their choice. I still back my reasoning that you've got to be insane to stick up a donut joint frequented by cops. Look at today's example with those stupid Kuwaitis attacking the USMC during their live ammo exercise.

My other ride is the relative wind.

[jraf 0]

Firearms are good. The constitution gives us the right to bear firearms. Anybody tries to harm me and my family and they will be dead before they can say aloha!

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[weid14 0]

and what happens when one of the older geezers takes a potty break, and gets mugged, and loses his gun in the airport prior to boarding the aircraft, then what? leave the gun fighting in the airplanes to the marshalls.

[wlie 0]

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leave the gun fighting in the airplanes to the marshalls.

And assisting passengers!

My other ride is the relative wind.

[weid14 0]

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leave the gun fighting in the airplanes to the marshalls.

And assisting passengers!

yeah, that too

[DJL 235]

Ok here's the first draft:

Doors to cockpits are always locked and are bullet proof and blast resistant. An additional Kevlar shield may be rolled down from the ceiling on the pilot side of the door to protect against blasts. Kevlar jackets provided for pilots. Guns provided in lockable safe. In the cockpit has a screen with displays from several screens within the cabin so they know what's going on and whether or not they can unlock the door when all is safe.

Pilots, Air Marshalls, and Flight Attendants are each provided with devices that sound an alarm that will be transmitted from the airplane. Upon activation of the alarm, pilots know to keep the door locked, they seek no communication with those outside of the door, don their kevlar, pull out the guns and follow the official "we just got hijacked" flight plan (land at nearest capable air field). A recording begins to play inside of the cabin repeating "An alarm has been sounded alerting the pilots of this craft and ______ authorities that there has been a security breach aboard this plane. The pilots of this craft are unaware of any activity outside of the cockpit and have been directed to land the plane and relinquish command to the ______ authorities."

Air Marshalls should not carry a gun, because that creates a situation in which hijacker's may try to get control of the guy by killing people. Also, they may gain control of the gun.

Basically, it's creating an environment in which the only course people have to take is to sit there and say, "Hey, sorry, can't help ya." If hijackers know they'll get no where then they won't do it in the first place.

End of first draft.

-Doug

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Sebazz1 2]

And will the cabin fill with nitros so the passengers can get all loopy and stuff?

[DJL 235]

May as well. Putting a little gas in there will either mean that Raheem gets loopy or has to risk sneaking a gas mask in there.

-Doug

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[weid14 0]

if you've got a blast you've probably breached the body of the plane, that's a bad thing. the doors are already locked per SOP. I don't think a gun in the hands of someone that is old, overweight and is hung over from the night before is wise . a hijacker kills someone, they get the same in return from the air marshall (most flights have two on them now). and how do you deal with a hijacker that gets some c-4 on board and can blow the tail of the plane off? (would be so easy to do, security is a joke)

[mnischalke 0]

Pilots carrying aboard aircraft was widespread in the late 70s. Did anything bad happen then? Did lots of potty break melees break out? Naaah.

And ummm, with what, 30,000 domestic flights each day, do you think that every flight has a marshall?

Lastly, if I can be standing behind you in the grocery checkout with a Kimber .45 tucked neatly into my Kramer IWB holster, why can't I carry onboard an aircraft? Trust me, you will be protected, and if 10-20% of the cabin are armed, there will be no outbreaks.

An armed society is a polite society...

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[weid14 0]

times have changed, too. was there a US hijacking before sept 01? no, not all flights, I believe it is a high 80ish percent. hey, I dont' have anything against you or I owning a firearm or carrying one, provided they are capable of handling it. have you taken a look at most commercial pilots these days
They aren't armed in most of Europe, and my experience has been they are very polite, too

[mnischalke 0]

Because pistol-packin pilots and air marshalls made it a pretty stupid idea, there haven't been many domestically. But, there have been lots of hijackings overseas.

Speaking of secure airlines, ever fly el al?

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[billvon 3,085]

>Putting a little gas in there will either mean that Raheem gets loopy
>or has to risk sneaking a gas mask in there.

It is extremely difficult to "put a little gas" in a cabin in amounts that will make a hopped-up 22 year old male terrorist sleepy but not kill the asthmatic 70 year old hypoxic woman sitting next to him. There's a reason anesthesiologists make so much money.

[Deuce 1]

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There's a reason anesthesiologists make so much money.

They sell the samples the pharmaceutical companies give them?

[Sebazz1 2]

Niiiiiiiice one Duece

[quade 4]

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if you've got a blast you've probably breached the body of the plane, that's a bad thing. the doors are already locked per SOP. I don't think a gun in the hands of someone that is old, overweight and is hung over from the night before is wise . a hijacker kills someone, they get the same in return from the air marshall (most flights have two on them now). and how do you deal with a hijacker that gets some c-4 on board and can blow the tail of the plane off? (would be so easy to do, security is a joke)

The thing about having a gun in the cockpit isn't so much to prevent hijackings or even to prevent an aircraft from being taken down, but rather to keep the aircraft from taking down a much larger segment of innocent people by flying it into a building.

It's very difficult for most people to really wrap their heads around this idea, but essentially, we've already written off all of the passengers and crew of any single aircraft -- the gun in the cockpit is pretty much only to -try- to prevent them from being used as missles flying into buildings. It's a huge shift in thinking.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Craig 0]

Well, my flight ground instructor was asked the question about firearms in the cockpit by the class. He said he would not like the idea because first and foremost there is another person sitting next to him up there and how much does he REALLY know about them?? FYI he works for Comair and is a CFI/checkride pilot for them.

[diverdriver 6]

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So according to This the friendly skies may have a few more firearms flying around in them shortly. What do you guys think about pilots carrying guns??

For some reason I find it hard to believe that a pilot can fend off an attacker coming at them from behind, manage to fly the plane, AND keep *THEIR* firearm from getting in the hands of the attacker, thus putting my life in even more danger... Nothing against pilots, they kick ass - at flying not cockpit-to-cockpit dogfights.

Ok, time for me to put my thougts in here:

First, El Al does not have as many flights to protect so they CAN profile everyone and CAN keep track of everything. Do it the EL AL way and you will have racial profiling and that will be fought very vigorously by the ACLU.

Second, pilots are some of the most scrutinized, carefully monitored, and entrusted individuals in the US. Good enough to fly, good enough to defend has been a motto recently used by ALPA (Airline Pilot's Assoc.) to create support for guns in the cockpit.

I was originally opposed to the idea of guns in the cockpit for many of the same fears I've seen expressed here. But as I have educated my self on the subject a bit over the past year I believe my view has changed. I will support having volunteer pilots able to carry guns in the cockpit after a training program conducted by current law enforcement agencies. They must pass all the tests for marksmanship that are required of today's FBI and ATF agencies.

If you think there are Air Marshals on over 30 percent of the flights you are way out of reality.

If you think the cockpit doors can not be penetrated even when reinforced you are kidding yourself. All we have done is add time to how long it will take to get through the door. And maybe we can get passengers to jump the intruder.

The 9/11 hijackings were done in groups. Passengers attacking that group may not make it in time to keep the plane from being taken over. While you are fighting in the back for your lives, the pilots may be fighting for theirs before you can get there. "They should just worry about flying the plane." Ummm, it's a bit hard to continue to fly with a box cutter going through your throat. Give me something real to defend the integrity of the cockpit that I know will kill. A crash axe has to be swung. If it's deflected it could hit the other crew member.

Tazers: they can be over come by seat cushions and thick clothing. They have one shot to them. They would have been inefectual on 9/11 because there was more than one terrorist entering the cockpit.

Bullets will penetrate the hull: No, not all of them. Bullets have been designed already that will kill a person but will not penetrate the hull. Air Marshals carry them now.

The person flying next to you might be a wacko: Uh, read my statement above. Background checks must be done on pilots before they are ever employed to fly. They are some of the most scrutinized and watched workers in the US. We already have control of a weapon of mass destruction (an airplane). Do you think that someone couldn't already take control of one and use it if they want to? They could. The screening has been doing its' job.

Gassing the passengers will not work as Bill von clearly demonstrated. Depressurizing the cabin will not work on some aircraft because the system will not let the cabin go above 14,000 (as on the CRJ that I fly). At worst after about 20 minutes you will have a headache.

High G manuevers to keep attackers off balance: You will be keeping the passengers who are now your defenders off balance too.

With guns in the cockpit the rule is simplified: You don't open the door for anything, anytime. You land. That's it. No matter what blood curtling screems you hear you DO NOT open the door. And if anything comes through the door you shoot it. And don't give me the "Well what if it's the flight attendant wanting to know if you want a cup of coffee." These are very obvious and distinctly separate situations. We got our jobs because we showed good judgement. That will be looked at with even more scrutiny when we get guns in the cockpit.

I would like to have more options than just plowing the plane into the ground killing myself and all on board to save the lives of others in a building somewhere. Guns in the cockpit is going to happen. We must see it happen. No door is impenetrable. We can not afford to have another aircraft taken over and flown on a suicide mission to kill others. Not that the instant loss of life isn't important, but the fabric of our society will break down as we know it. Airlines will fold because no one will fly again. The transportation industry will go to ruins and will be very hard and long in coming to build back up.

Chris Schindler
CRJ Captain based O'Hare

[freeflir29 0]

I think there needs to be some training for all the pilots that want to carry. I don't see any problem with them doing so. In the old days pilots did it all the time. It was never deemed "Legal or Illegal" they just did it. There was an idea that a Captain on an airplane, just like on a ship, has autonomous power. He also is solely responsible for the welfare of his craft. If he wants to be armed...so be it. As many Air Marshalls as they have hired, let's face it. They can't be on EVERY SINGLE flight. So, I say give the pilots the option. I really don't think you will be introducing any more danger as some have suggested.

[billvon 3,085]

>As many Air Marshalls as they have hired, let's face it. They can't be
> on EVERY SINGLE flight.

They can be, we just have to want to do it.

[GrumpySmurf 0]

"As many Air Marshalls as they have hired, let's face it. They can't be on EVERY SINGLE flight."

They profiled a case on an investigative news program in the last week about a pair of FAMs arresting a rowdy passenger. After the passenger was subdued and placed into a seat in first class, one of the Marshals appearantly arrested an unrelated man sitting in first class because he "didn't like the way he looked" (he was an East Indian doctor) and dragged him off when they landed the plane, no charges were filed against the second individual. It was found later that the Air Marshal had failed the psych profile while applying for a job as a city cop, yet had managed to slip through the screening process to become a FAM.
I'm not a big fan of pilots with guns, but given the fact that the US Gov't can't seem to get the selection process for the FAM program right, hell, why not give the pilots guns - as long as the weapon is secured in lock box of some sort in the cockpit and not on the pilots hip, and if the weapon is removed without just cause, the pilot faces serious discipliany action - can't be any worse than the alternative.

[freeflir29 0]

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They can be, we just have to want to do it

True...but I don't think that will happen. Too much money, time, and trouble involved. Plus Air Marshalls are only one form of public transit that is to be guarded. There are other things like Sea Marshalls, Train Marshalls, Etc. on the way so I hear.

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given the fact that the US Gov't can't seem to get the selection process for the FAM program right

Well...when the entire country is screaming that they want FAM's on planes NOW what do you expect. It's kind of hard to build a highly professional force over night.

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as long as the weapon is secured in lock box of some sort in the cockpit and not on the pilots hip

Uuummm...what good does a weapon do in a lock box? You might as well just have the box.