freeflir29 0 #51 November 12, 2002 QuotePretty bloody matter Uuuhh...yeah....This guy was a Colonel in the Hungarian Army at that time. He left the country in a bit of a hurry. Only took him almost 40 years to get back home. That guy had stories that made James Bond look like a pussy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jraf 0 #52 November 12, 2002 I have a few friends who were there. A lot of educated young people gave their life for their freedom and country. I suppose that was exercising a choice too.jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #53 November 12, 2002 So only rich people should have kids? That doesn't seem right. What about all the people who came from hard working blue collar families and put themselves through college? They usually end up being the inovators and masters of industry because of the ethics they learned doing it on their own. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #54 November 12, 2002 QuoteA lot of educated young people gave their life for their freedom and country. I suppose that was exercising a choice too. Actually...it is. I'm a firm believer that it's better to live on your feet than die on your knees. I don't think most people would make that choice. It's certainly a testament to their character. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jraf 0 #55 November 12, 2002 The discussion is not about oppulence or poverty. It is about taking responsibility for the life you have given (big words) and providing choices to those you have brought to this world. I believe that by not giving their kids a shot at education people are acting irresponsibly.jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #56 November 12, 2002 QuoteI believe that by not giving their kids a shot at education people are acting irresponsibly. I believe that by paying a kid's way through college people are acting irresponsibly. Having a "free ride" denys that kid the chance to learn numerous life lessons - i.e. that life isn't always fair, that the world doesn't owe you anything, and that if you want something you have be ready and willing to work for it. Anyone in the US who wants a college education can get one - if they want it bad enough to put out some effort. It might take longer than the "standard" four years because they may have to support themselves at the same time. It might require that the person sacrifice doing things they like to do or items they'd like to have to pay for it. I guess it comes down to your values. There are a lot of things I'd like to see my son do and be. For me things like being true to himself, being willing to work hard for what he wants, being a person who treats others as he'd like to be treated, being able to express his emotions... all are far more important to me than if he makes a lot of money and/or gets a college education. Should he decide to go to college, more power to him. If he makes that choice he'll do so knowing that it's up to him to make it happen. I'd be very proud of him come graduation day, not because he'd be getting a piece of paper but because he set a huge goal for himself, worked his ass off and achieved it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #57 November 12, 2002 There's a difference between irresponsibility and impossibility. What if you're a first generation immigrant migrant worker and just have enough money to provide housing and food for your family. Would you immediate label them as irresponsible for deciding to have children? If you're going out every night, blowing your money on expensive tvs and cars, have a kid with no plans for how you'll pay for their education, that's irresponsible. But if you are doing what you can to get by in life and believe that one of your purposes in life is to procreate, then I wouldn't say that person is irresponsible. Basically I don't think you can make that distinction based on your formula of: Have kids + Can't afford college = irresponsible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jraf 0 #58 November 12, 2002 You seem to suggest that higher aducation is a function of finance. I believe it is about learning. My parents did finance my education and I am gratefull. Do I feel worse than the next guy who graduates with over $100,000 in college debt? No, I feel better ans I don't have to bear that burden. Being in debt does not make you wiser or nobler - it makes you poorer. I am far from interveening in the way you bring up your children, but since you would be proud if your son graduated, what have you done to encourage him to do so? Have you given him the choice, or does he have to find out about it the hard way?jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #59 November 12, 2002 Ok, I see your point. Yes, for the most part, parents should expect that when they have a child they should do everything they can to encourage that child to become as educated as possible throughout their life. But how do you determine whether someone's done that or not without witnessing the rearing of that child? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jraf 0 #60 November 12, 2002 It would be a grave mistake to generalize, but don't you know prople who just let their kids live without giving them the essential and strategic advice as to what to do with their future?jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #61 November 12, 2002 >Being in debt does not make you wiser or nobler - it makes you poorer. While that is literally true, I could say the same about someone who ran 100 miles over the course of a year vs someone who drove an SUV the same distance. They both cover the same ground. One had a harder time doing it. One is in better shape afterwards. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jraf 0 #62 November 12, 2002 Sorry Bill, I disagree. You are comparing apples with pears. The question to answer is did the runner have a choice to drive, but run to enhance his well being, or did he have to run because there is no way he could get an SUVjraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #63 November 12, 2002 If I follow your analygy correctly, then I mostly agree that after someone has gotten themselves out of debt, having been in it...they are in better shape and have learned a valuable lesson. However, I have a friend who racked up 30k+ in debt and filed bankruptcy. Now my taxes are paying his damn debt. I view that as him robbing me of my money. We would have less taxes if it weren't for bankruptcy. While I know some people have extraordinary circumstances, and that is fine, this friend of mine just didn't give a shit and in return, I feel he cheated me, my family, my friends and other tax payers. I had 1k in debt from when I first started skydiving on a credit card. I paid it off a few months ago in full. I learned a much better lesson from having that debt and having to watch my minimum montly payments do NOTHING for my balance. I'm glad I learned the lesson that way, othewise, in the future, I could have been in worse shape. I made all my payments on time though, and as a result, my credit is still in great shape., thankfully. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #64 November 12, 2002 What a clear analogy. Go Bill! I was in debt after working, borrowing, and paying my way through college without a penny from my parents. The debt was nasty and sometimes didn't get paid on time. Made the last payment last year and had a party to celebrate. Has my overall financial liquidity been lower during the last ten years because of this? Perhaps somewhat. On the other hand, I'm far better prepared mentally and morally to commit to debt and achieve financial success than several sons of the wealthy I knew whose annual college bills were sent to their parents' addresses instead. First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #65 November 12, 2002 QuoteBeing in debt does not make you wiser or nobler - it makes you poorer. In another post you suggest that home ownership is important. Owning a home is damn near impossible for even a college graduate today without going into major debt. Why is is okay to be in debt to own a house but not okay to be in debt to pay for your own education? Quotewhat have you done to encourage him to do so? Have you given him the choice, or does he have to find out about it the hard way? What I have done to encourage him to get more education after high school? Told him that I wish I'd done so, not so I would have made more money but so I would have a wider view of the world. Showed him by example the kind of life he can expect if he makes the same (poor) choices I made at his age. Encouraged him to explore numerous career fields so that he will hopefully be happy in whatever he chooses to do. And expected him to make his own decisions about what he wants to do with his life. It is his life after all. He knows the options he has; we've discussed those options repeatedly. It's his decision to make. Not mine. He knows that regardless of what he does or doesn't do, I'll always be proud of him. There are no career or education requirements limiting that pride or my love for him. He's an awesome person right now and I expect that he'll become even more so as he gets older. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jraf 0 #66 November 12, 2002 Interesting approach. Different example - after having my college paid for by my parents I never financed a car. Always paid cash. I earned the money myself. Since I was in high school I had to buy all my own clothing. I worked all through University to support my wants and desires. I am most grateful to have received the present of education - a great gift of choice. I now can and do run cross country, but I also have a Land Rover if I desire to off road a bit, and the car is fully paid forjraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #67 November 12, 2002 QuoteIn another post you suggest that home ownership is important. Owning a home is damn near impossible for even a college graduate today without going into major debt. Why is is okay to be in debt to own a house but not okay to be in debt to pay for your own education? Actually Lisa, Real Estate is generally a very good investment depending on your finance rate in comparison to rate of growth in the particular market. As for education debt, this too can be a smart move depending on what you plan to use your degree for. I also understand that student are supposedly low interest, but I am not sure about this. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #68 November 12, 2002 >The question to answer is did the runner have a choice to drive, but > run to enhance his well being, or did he have to run because there > is no way he could get an SUV . . . . It would be too bad if he couldn't get an SUV, but in the end, the guy who ran is _still_ in better shape, no matter what the reason he had to run. Since he had to use his body to cover the ground, the exercise made his heart, lungs and legs stronger. He ends the race in better shape, even if he doesn't have that SUV. It's also too bad if a college student can't get his college paid for. However, if he gets a degree anyway, he is in better shape afterwards - he not only learned what he needed to get his degree, he learned how to earn, manage, and keep money, and in many cases learned how to get loans at good rates and pay them off. He is better equipped for the real world of car payments, mortgages, 401k's and bank accounts - even if he owes money when he graduates. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #69 November 12, 2002 What if the runner drove his SUV to the gym on a regular basis? _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,588 #70 November 12, 2002 I think it would depend on whether his parents bought him the gym membership, or at least taught him how important physical fitness was.Wendy W. There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jraf 0 #71 November 12, 2002 Having house payments is better than having house payments and college payments at the same time. It is just simple adding - would you preffer to be $150,000 in debt or $200,000. Do you want to see your childrem buying the bank a marble floor?jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #72 November 12, 2002 QuoteI think it would depend on whether his parents bought him the gym membership, or at least taught him how important physical fitness was. Interesting point to ponder. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #73 November 12, 2002 A little while ago you said it had nothing to do with finances. But now you're talking about paying for an education outright or a student having to finance it. If a parent teaches the value of education to a child as a life lesson, they were responsible, whether or not they actually pay for an education for that child is immaterial in my opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #74 November 12, 2002 Quote Having house payments is better than having house payments and college payments at the same time. So work extra hard to pay off the student loans early, before purchasing a house. Or purchase a less expensive home, one with payments that are affordable even with the student loan payments. I'm happy for you and others whose parents could afford to pay your way through school. I don't think the fact that some people can afford to pay for their kid's college means that those who can't (or won't) do the same are any more or less responsible than your parents were. I'm glad you appreciated it and look at it as a gift. Too many people feel that they are entitled to that gift - imho no one is entitled to anything they aren't willing to work for and everyone should be thankful and appreciative when they are given something they want as a gift instead of having to struggle to get it. So, anyone want to put me through college? I promise I'll be very thankful and appreciative. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jraf 0 #75 November 12, 2002 It was not I who brought up the financing. I just responded. However I do agree with you that parental responsibility is manifested by encouraging your offspring to get an educationjraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
