Irresponsible parents?

[wmw999 2,552]

I don't think I was accusing you of treating anyone any way. Really.

And I don't really think I'm suffering from trailer park syndrome: I have a degree, a house that's almost paid for, I can sort of honestly say I'm a rocket scientist. My parents mostly paid for my first two years of college.

I just don't think that's the only definition of "chance." Giving kids tools to make their own life and own decisions is far more important than giving them a college education. And while college can be a tool to make their own life, it's only one in a set.

The ability to make decisions intelligently is much more important, and far harder to get later on than college.

Wendy W.

Edited to add that I really agree with JDBoston's assertion that paying more attention to luxury than kids' future is tacky. That's how you raise kids who think that luxury is the definition of happiness, without necessarily helping them to develop the tools to find their own happiness.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Deuce 1]

That sounds like you don't think poor people should have children. I hope that's not what you mean.

Parents need to prepare their children to succeed as best they can in the world. They should be taught to study hard, achieve goals, compete with themselves, and live to the maximum of their potential. Sometimes those qualities will produce a Bill Gates, and sometimes the most productive manager of the JiffyLube franchise in the region.

I'm proof positive that college education creates opportunities that would not otherwise exist, but it's not necessary. I paid my own way to a State College BA and MPA.

I do think that the children of two-parent families do better. I take my role as a father seriously, so I get frustrated by all the 30 something women I know choosing to have kids and raise them without fathers.

I also think that every time people have sex, they should be prepared for the consequence of children.

Except Narcimund

Kids are serious business, but love and attention prepare them for success, not money. No, you shouldn't have to have college tuition in the bank before you have kids. I think you should want and be prepared for kids before you have them, though.

[jraf 0]

Muenkel I am NOT mocking people who live in trailer parks. I have great friends who live there. They have not been given a chice, they are stuggling and I wish they were not.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[freeflir29 0]

Quote

But since the beginning of the '80 it became obvious that it will be harder and harder without.

True....if I had entered the IT industry 10 years ago with the education I have now I would be making a SHITLOAD more money. As it is....I'm just a little fish in a VERY big pond. That's how my sister got so successful. She was in the industry early. Back when knowing how to do the job was all that counted. Want a laugh....after 16 years in the industry she finally went and got an MCSE earlier this year. It's the first computer certification she has EVER gotten. My Dad doesn't count....that was back when College didn't count. Hard work did. He did plenty of that. I obviously haven't quite figured out my own formula for success yet. I can see the path I'm just having a bit of a hard time getting started. Oh well...I have a plan....nothing good was ever easy and the only easy day was yesterday!!!

Quote

It's like going to a Mercedes dealership and looking at cars. Some people love them but know thwy will never be able to afford them. And some people have the choice of saying - OK, I'll go work for a year or two and maybe even pay cash for it.

I was raised a bit differently. I drive by a Mercedes dealer and see a lot full of WASTED money. Why in the hell would I want to buy something that loses thousands of dollars per year? I would rather put my money to better use. My parents never drove new cars. They drove old beaters. Not because they had to...they just had less superficial things to spend money on. I'd rather buy a house than a car. These days they are about the same price. Plus...houses don't lose a 1/4 of their value in the first two weeks that you own them.

[narcimund 0]

Quote

Except Narcimund

Now THAT'S funny!

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[freeflir29 0]

Quote

They were basically willing to flush the money for me to at least go try.

Mine were too. I just KNEW that I had no interest in college.

[SkyDaemon 0]

The IRS steals insane amounts of money from me, which goes to pay for -other- kids' educations (considering I don't have any children). I'm also stolen from to pay for other kids, medical needs, their protection, counseling, and in the case of the delinquent, I pay for their imprisonment.

Since I'm 'paying' for all sorts of things for kids, does this mean I responsible parent my proxy?

Think about having children before you do. Planned parenthood means more than using a condom, and as the planet becomes more overpopulated and natural resources become more scarce, global warming increases, and this 'communal playground' deteriorates, be prepared to pay your kid's way through this world, and don't demand that everyone else do it. Be ready to be responsible for your actions, and don't ask the rest of us to.

find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer;

[jraf 0]

Deuce - I am arrogant, but far from the idea of stating that financially challenged people should not have kids. It's their readyness to give them a future I am asking about.

Narcimund - Yes my Father paid for my education in full. It was far from a party. Both undergrad and grad school I had to study hard and gain knowledge. I did not get a car from my parents, I did not get a down payment on a house. I got an education.

Should you not crave that your children achieve more in life than you did? Should you not hope that they creatively contribute to society?

Having children and then saying: go, prove yourself, you are on your own, whatever you achieve will be your achievement - That is cruelty.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[MyUserID 0]

My parents are both educated. My father has two PhDs and is a professor. My mother a pharmacist. Nonetheless, they outright refused to pay for my education. No ifs, ands or buts about it. I think this is because they both had to pay their own ways through school. Of course education was no where near as expensive back then.

In the end, I guess it makes me take school more seriously. It makes me a more repsonible person with an education and a $55,000 student loan debt.

------------------------------------------------------

Remember kids, eagles may soar, but at least weasels dont get sucked into jet engines.

[billvon 3,080]

> I strongly believe that if you decide to have children, you should
>be prepared to give them a shot at higher education.

The wording there is important. "Give them a shot?" Definitely. When I have kids they will know there's an option to go to college, although they may have to work when they get there (I did.) Will I force them to go if they don't want to? No. At 17 they can make their own decisions, and although I can nudge them in the right direction, I can't force them.

[jfields 0]

Quote

Having children and then saying: go, prove yourself, you are on your own, whatever you achieve will be your achievement - That is cruelty.

Actually, that is reality. It doesn't matter what children are given materially if they are not taught values by their parents. It isn't always in a person's power to give anything more than love and common sense. Well equipped with just those two things, children can usually go on to do just fine. Part of being a parent is knowing that your children are different people than you, and must grow to succeed on their own without support. Part of the measure of a parent is how well their children do that.

[jraf 0]

Clay, the Mercedes dealership bad example. The house is much better - a chace to buy or not buy a house is quite important (top of Massliff's human needs ladder - Basic needs -Food and Shelter)

By the way I dislike Mercs. If I want to ride one I will go to Germany and take a Cab

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[jraf 0]

Giving your kids a shot is the important issue. True that they will make their own decisions. But the support parents give is fundamental. The drive that parents inspire in their children is most important. Indifference can kill a personality

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[jimmytavino 16]

Absolutely excellent points have been made by each poster....Sure before having children, couples should be fairly certain that they can "see it through for the long haul".. Parenting isn't just changing diapers, and midnight feedings... We are talking about a full 20 year chunk of time ... And if you have a few children and they are born over 5 or 7 years,,, then couples have a 3 decade,,,,,,,,, Adventurebut who can foresee the changes which occur over an 18 or 20 year span???....We are very proud parents
of a High School Junior and a College Sophmore.....
My wife and I each paid for our own undergraduate.
Fortunately we have a real good state college system
( N Y )...and could afford it..we each worked while we we in school,,, (doesn't everybody?)....I covered my wife's masters,,after we were married and before children,,,, but I never went beyond my
4 yr degree... (graduated with a B.S. in Anthropology and 358 skydives!!!!!!!!!.....As for the kids,,, yes we began saving,,, and denying ourselves many many nice things as we saved......to be well in a position to spare our kids from "paying for their own" college....Spent most of the 90's saving,,,, working,,,, spending (on the kids needs) splurging once in a while,, and savings some more.......So then what happens???.....just when I need the $$$$$$ for starting to make these tuition payments,,,,, CEO's got greedy,,,, advisors gave BAD advice,,, the economy slowed and the market tanked......still I got the house paid off,,, meager as it is,,,and we haven't had to tap the equity ,,yet ,,to pay tuition,,, but who knows????..for next year???
NOW you see why I go to the DROPZONE as often as I can??!!! hahaha
Yet still we ARE makin' it,,, with a little room to spare......'cause we work... and encourage the children to work....( and at this point in time their main job is to be a student....)...Do I think college education is a birthright that any child can demand of the parents,,, or that a parent be Obligated to provide?????? No I do not....You may plan for it,, and prepare for it,, but the child should demonstrate
the study habits and work ethic ,,,to JUSTIFY the spending of the money..when they are ready for college ...Is a college degree
essential today..???....I suppose to a certain extent it is......Yet I never,,make the misassumption of a persons level of intelligence, or their "smarts",,,based on whether or not they 'went to college'.....would You?????....Best school I ever went to??..........skydiving school,,,, of course!!!!

[Jessica 0]

Quote

At 17 they can make their own decisions, and although I can nudge them in the right direction, I can't force them.

If my kids turn out anything like me, I'm going to encourage them to do something else before college. Volunteer for a year, get a full-time job, join the service. Anything.

I tried going to college right out of high school and I was miserable. It took dropping out and spending a year working for an air-conditioning supply company to convince me I wanted a college education.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[jfields 0]

Quote

It took dropping out and spending a year working for an air-conditioning supply company

Good call. I enlisted.

[Muenkel 0]

Quote

I tried going to college right out of high school and I was miserable. It took dropping out and spending a year working for an air-conditioning supply company to convince me I wanted a college education.

Same here. This was a huge issue for my parents. I can't tell you how much we fought. Anyway, I won the argument, took a year off and realized that I really wanted an education. Plus all my friends were now a year ahead of me. I returned to school with a whole different attitude and wound up graduating Summa Cum Laude.

_________________________________________
Chris

[jraf 0]

Which is to say that you have explored your choices and decided you are better of with an education than without. And it is obvious that your parents did encourage you to get that education. Hence, they have felt responsibility for your future

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[tigra 0]

I strongly believe that EVERY child born in this country should have an opportunity for a higher education, regardless of where they live, who their parents are, or how much money they have. Sadly, that is really not the case in this country. Public schools are for the most part funded through property taxes, so children living in affluent areas automatically have better schools and more opportunities.

A college education will not guaranty you a good job or a bright future, and not everyone is meant to go to college. But in a perfect world, everyone would at least have the option.

Just my .02..........

maura

[christoofar 0]

Quote

I also think that every time people have sex, they should be prepared for the consequence of children.

Except Narcimund

Are you trying to get Nacrimund pregnant, Deuce? If you are, I would suggest videotaping your efforts, then sell it and use the proceeds to pay for your kids' stint at Harvard.

Now, to send this thread out of control: I'm probably opening a BIG can of worms saying this, but I'm going to say it anyway...

I don't think there's ONE thing wrong with daddy's little angel making a living stripping to pay for school. She's using her body to her advantage. Besides, if she's hot enough that passers-by get a woodie... does it make any difference table dancing and the guys are doing the same thing?

Daddy's little precious is "captalizing" on the undepreciated portions of her "assets!" If she vests say $175,000 from her stripping activity into a Roth IRA and it grows 8%/annum minimum and she pulls it out when she hits 65... THINK about it!

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[nitrodan 0]

A degree is only as good as the person who holds it I have many friends with thousands tied up in an education that they are not willing to use. making it to the next level is hard work with or without a degree and some people (and this shocks me) can put in the time to get the degree but never use it. I never made it to college and did grow up in that trailer park (in south georgia its not if you live in a trailer but if its a single or doublewide)that someone spoke of earlier. I've managed to do just fine!

DAN SMITH
www.skydivewichita.com

[PLFXpert 0]

While I do think that there are *some* (read, not a lot but some) people popping out kid after kid that really shouldn't be (condoms are free) I wouldn't say that you have to be rich, by any means, to have children. Shit can happen to the best of us.

While I do think college can make it a lot easier to make a lot more $$$, it by no means is the only way to do it.

I'm not sure about other states, but Florida has merit scholarships that reward high school students w/ up to 100% of their college tuition paid based on their GPA and volunteer work/extracurricular activities, etc.

I am fortunate to have had a father who would have paid for my college, however, I was awarded more than one scholarship b/c of my GPA that more than paid for my college degree.

I think any parent, poor or rich, can encourage their kids to do well in school, help them study and make it possible for them to be awarded a scholarship to pay for their tuition. There are LOTS of free tutoring programs available in any neighborhood for children who need assistance.

So, no, I don't necessarily think a person should avoid having children just b/c they can't afford to put them through college. I do, however, think no parent should have a child unless they're willing to encourage them in their studies and do all they can for them to help their child succeed.



Also, with all the different circumstances out there, you really can't put a whole groups of people into one category. I do a lot of volunteer work, and while I'm not for giving handouts to people who haven't tried to do anything for themselves, I've seen a # of cases that, the parents had much different plans for their children when they had them, and b/c of some not-so-extraordinary circumstances (ie. shit happened) they weren't able to support their children anymore. I am actually writing a Hope Fund story for the paper about such a woman right now. She had been working her ass off at a meager job to support her children and doing everything she could for them, when something terrible happened and now she is unable to do so.

That is just one of many things that could go wrong. Life is not predicatable. You can only hope for the best. While I see your point, Jraf, I don't think it's wise to stereotype.

[wmw999 2,552]

Quote

Which is to say that you have explored your choices and decided you are better of with an education than without. And it is obvious that your parents did encourage you to get that education. Hence, they have felt responsibility for your future

The deal here is that there are parents whose familiarity with college is so remote that it never occurs to them that it's possible. It's something that "other people" do, because no one in their family or community has ever been to college, except for the teachers (who probably don't live close by).

This is a pity, and is part of the reason why schools in depressed areas sometimes need BETTER teachers and counselors than schools in more affluent areas. Because the parents just don't have the skills. In the same way that my Hungarian is lousy -- it's outside my world.

I just don't think that means that parents with no experience with college shouldn't breed...

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[freeflir29 0]

Quote

In the same way that my Hungarian is lousy

I knew a Hungarian once. He had been in this country for probably 30 years. (When was that communist revolution?) I still could hardly understand a word he said... Fascinating person though. kind of became a hero to me. After the wall came down he could actually go home without getting killed.

[jraf 0]

Anti-commusist uprsing in Budapest in 1956. Pretty bloody matter. Yuriy Andropov, who later became Chairman of KGB and for a brief moment the Secretary General of the CPSU (Communist Party of the Soviet Union) was the Soviet ambassador and chief pacyfier of Hungary. He had a pretty good education though

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275