Sealing Parachutes USA only

[JerryBaumchen 1,468]

Hi out there,

As I mentioned in another thread, there will be some discussion on paper seals at the next PIA Rigging Committee meeting. This meeting will take place just prior to the Symposium in Daytona.

If you have an interest in this here is some info:

Federal Aviation Regulations - Sec. 65.133 — Seal.

Each certificated parachute rigger must have a seal with an identifying mark prescribed by the Administrator, and a seal press. After packing a parachute he shall seal the pack with his seal in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendation for that type of parachute.

At the upcoming PIA Rigging Committee meeting in Daytona ( just before the Symposium ), they plan to bring up the issue of paper seals.

Mark Baur is the Chair of the PIA Rigging Committee. He can be reached here:

Mark Baur
2026 County Road J, P. O. Box 603
Baldwin, WI 54002
info@parachutemagic.com

I have asked that they also put on the agenda the idea of no seal whatsoever. In other words, have the PIA petition the FAA to change FAR 65.133.

If you have any thoughts on this, you might send him an email so that he can consider your thoughts during the Rigging Committee meeting.

JerryBaumchen

[theonlyski 8]

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Mark Baur is the Chair of the PIA Rigging Committee.

Here I was thinking it was you.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[JerryBaumchen 1,468]

Hi Robert,

Quote

Here I was thinking it was you.

You will never see the day when I chair anything.

BTDT, and it was not fun,

JerryBaumchen

[fcajump 164]

Jerry,
Thanks for bringing this up. I do think it should be addresses and clarified. Currently there is too much gray area in the regs. This is most clearly obvious to me when I hear the different interpretations on the issue between yourself and other seasoned/qualified experts.

I have sent Mark a letter (copied below) with my own opinions. I am sure there will be those with contrary opinions and I would be interested in hearing their rational for why they would do things differently.

Blue Skies,
Jim
---------------

Mark,

I agree that PIA should petition the FAA to clarify the regulation concerning sealing the rig. Questions that should be addressed (and my opinions) include:

1. Should it be sealed in a tamper-proof manor?
Yes. This is vital to reassure both the owner and rigger of record that the system has not been opened since the rigger last worked on it. I do NOT for a minute propose that this eliminates all ways in which the rig could be incapacitated, but it would be harder for such actions to be made to look like rigger error.

2. Should the rig's "airworthiness" be dependent upon the seal being intact at the time of use?
Yes. As there is general disagreement within the industry, by very experienced, knowledgeable and respected experts in the field, I believe this needs to be codified. If the seal is not intact, there is no assurance to the DZO, Instructors, pilot or plane owner that the rig is in airworthy condition. These entities have become increasingly held responsible for the parachute systems used at their facilities, in their planes, they must be able to verify that the system has not been opened since closed by the rigger of record. Further, ramp checks of aircraft in which a parachute is being used need clear policy on this point. An owner advised by his rigger that an intact seal is not required may be violated by a FAA representative who disagrees with that interpretation. I would suggest that precedent may already exist on this point in the other components of certain aircraft that are sealed to indicate whether they have been altered since the mechanic last worked on it (thinking here of emergency exits/slides/etc).

3. Should the seal's material be specified?
Yes, _with_ provision for the rig manufacturer to (optionally) provide alternative processes/materials in their manual. This would provide a default standard for any rig (legacy rigs for example) where the manual does not specify. While I feel the current lead seal w/ break thread is a good option, by it remaining specified without exception, there is no option for innovation. The manufacturers should have the flexibility to indicate that (and which) alternative(s) are approved for use on their systems. This desire to innovate is not simply a "better mousetrap" but may be an increasing necessity as more localities put restrictions on the use and handling of lead products.

4. Should the seal include the rigger's mark (seal letters) as is currently required?
Yes. No reason to change this.

5. Should the seal be required to include the date or other information?
No. Not because its a bad idea. Matter of fact, I am all for it. But currently we do not have any reliable, tried/tested/proven standardized method(s). I would like to see it be developed, available and adopted by the industry, but it should not be codified at this time.

Additional comments:
I would like to see a method developed to have the seal "captured" such that even when the pin is pulled and the thread broken, the seal would remain on the rig.


Respectfully,
Jim Wine
Master Rigger (back/seat/chest)
PIA Member

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[JohnSherman 1]

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I have asked that they also put on the agenda the idea of no seal whatsoever. In other words, have the PIA petition the FAA to change FAR 65.133.

Why?

[leon.hill 1]

I would also like an answer to this as well.

All I can see is someone (rigger or not) opening a reserve container for whatever reason and re closing it. Now my name is on the log record as the last rigger to pack it with no ramifications to the person who opened it.

[RiggerLee 63]

I'm in favor of seals but I think it's important to keep in mind what they really mean. Some people seem to operate under the ilusion that they are some how unfalible and can not be defeated. It always freaks them out when I show them how to to take the seal off the pin with out breaking it. Generally depending on how the knot is tied you can work the trread down the pin one knot at a time till it's on the skinny part and then start on the next till you can slip the loop off the end of the pin. Wala seal defeated. Now this doesn't even touch on all the things you could do to a rig with the seal intact if you had malishish intent. Rigs with two pins are even worse. I once watched a young rigger fret over how to seal a two pin rig, I think it was a prestige or swift or some thing. The guy was just all tied in knots about how to do it so that it would be "tamper proof". In the end I think he settled on some elabrate thing with threads running to both pins with elaberat knots and shit. We all had a good laugh after he left. The point is that it's an imperfect but worthwild system that does serve to keep honest people honest. And it has served well at times.

I think it's important the the seal have the symble on it other wise what's the point. Not that people check them Joe Shmo is a verrry active rigger in north texas. I am trully amazed that I have never met him as active as he is. Allas he does not seem to have gotten his own seal yet. I'm not joking. People use that name. Laughed my ass off the first time I saw it.

We've had rigs come into the shop that we've tryed to decifer the cards on. I remember one that the guy brought in because the cypres wouldn't turn on any more. The battery was dead which should clue you in on how long it had been but the card sayed every thing was fine. In the end we decided that it was my pack job in there. It was still my seal although rather battered and we think based on my book that the third of my signitures up from the bottom was the real one and it's last repack. That was something like 15 sigs back. Ya, it was that bad and looked it. That's what really pissed me off, it wasn't like the guy took decent care of the rig. Now let's say he had a ride and bounded.

Another simular story. The story about how Storie got his stamp. He used to sign it like every body else. No more. He had a customer who was one of the most acomplished forgers I have known. I think she would actually bring it in once every couple of year or if she had a ride of course. Finally after years of "packing" her reserve Storie got sick of this and got a stamp for his name and number. The Amy Baly momoreal stamp. And that is the story of how Storie got his stamp. Good argument for a date stamp on the seal.

I'll give you another example of it's imperfection. Fatality. Interesting because the reserve malled. Seal was gone, no surprise there. So the card has my frinds name on it. You can imagion the hubbub over this. The FAA was interested but actually very cool about it. There were a lot of issues that might of contributed to it and I doubt the pack job was the biggest of them. They open her other rig that I had packed side by side with him. Marked as haveing been done in the same shop, and find my pack job, which is neat I'm not a bad packer. In the end it was rulled bad luck. I'll tell you who was most fucked up over the whole thing, Tom. I mean it really shook him to his core. The FAA didn't bring any action against him but it was like a year and a half before he could bring him self to pack another reserve. And this was in a bussy loft where we had a lot of shit to do. What's the point of all this. About three years later we find out that it wasn't his pack job. We heard the story round about from the guy that helped her repack it after a splash down. It was never Tom pack job. All kinds of shit could have happioned. The FAA guy could have been a hard ass. The Family could have been vendictive and sued. Tom was actually really fucked up over this, He never showed it, He's just fudomentally an asshole not the touchy feely type that shares. But for over two years this weighed on him and to this day people give him shit and talk smack about him for "killing" their friend. That's another no bull shit story. Point is This whole concept only works if it's utalised properly. She checked in with her other rig. No one ever gear checked her second rig. She jumped it for... I don't know a couple of months? With some one elses pack job in her container under his name untill she finally bounced with it.

On the related subject of rules that we already have. The soft ware that every body seems to use for manifist. I can't speek for all drop zones but it was what skydive dallas used to keep track of repack dates and it was the first and only line of defence in that regard. Don't get me wrong it actually did a decent job for the most part, although I wish that it had given about two weeks warning before it would n't let you manifest. I don't know if they ever fixed the bug but if you manifested as a "team" it only stored one date for all the rigs on that "team". In other word on an eight way team with camera 17 of the 18 rigs that the "team" was jumping all day could be out of date. The seconddary rigs in perticular were a problem because if they manifest indevidually it again only keeps one date. So the second rig... well it was lucky if it got packed once a year for nationals. It's a bit of a sore point for me because I almost got fired when I figured this out and started checking cards. Boy did I piss people off. This ignores the fact that that it jepridises the pilot and leaves the drop zone hanging in the wind.

So honestly although even what we have now is imperfect If we would just use it even as it is right now. we would probable be ok. I'm not sure changing the regs is the answer to all of this. I've been ramballing cause I'm boad. These are all real no shit stories about abuse and neglect of the system as it stands right now. I'm not sure reg changes will fix it. It might take a big scandle/law suit/shit storm to make people pay attention.

Lee

Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

[weaverd 0]

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...... But for over two years this weighed on him and to this day people give him shit and talk smack about him for "killing" their friend........

Lee

That is bullshit! In this sport there is an inherent risk. When we jump we accept that risk. Unless someone intentionally screws with your rig there is no one to blame.

That is a real shame that people would "give him shit for kiilling their friend"

[JerryBaumchen 1,468]

Hi Jim,

Quote

I have sent Mark a letter

Thank you so much. This is exactly what I was hoping for in creating this thread.

I do not ask that anyone agree with me ( few do anyway ), just that people get involved. Otherwise, a decision might be made that you might not like.

JerryBaumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,468]

Hi John,

Quote

Why?

In another thread, Mark Lancaster and I had a little 'discussion' on the need for the integrity of the seal/seal thread once the rig is handed back to the owner.

Just as a quick thought, the FAA tells us explicitly that the parachute must have been I & R within the last 180 days to be legal to jump. They do not tell us explicitly that the seal/seal thread must be intact for the parachute be legal to jump.

And as mentioned above by RiggerLee, numerous parachutes have a design that someone could open the container, do whatever, and close it back up without disturbing the seal/seal thread.

If the goal is to maintain the integrity of the pack job, then no design should ever be allowed if the above can occur.

The first time I noticed this was back in the '70's when Security came out with their 150 Safety-Chute. The rig had/has a ripcord with two complete, seperate cables, pins & balls on it. The manual only says to seal one of the pins. At the time, I thought 'Why even bother to seal it if it can be opened by the other pin.'

That enough for now? If not, corner me in Daytona and we can 'discuss' it some more. I'll be by your booth.

JerryBaumchen

PS) Or you could write to Mark with your thoughts.

[JohnSherman 1]

Thanks Jerry,

I don't have any toughts other than "if it ain't broke don't fix it".

I am trying to learn how it is broke.

John

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

PS) Or you could write to Mark with your thoughts.

No need to write me, the word I got on Wednesday From the FAA is that the sealing is going to stand as it is.
As you well know, they just issued a document in January 2012 that stated that:
1. Sealing is required
2. The seal needs to be made of lead

..But you guys can spin your wheels if you want to.

The real question, like John asked and the rest of us would like to know, is why exactly do you not want seals on your parachutes

The example of the two ripcords is flawed as you can run seal thread to both pins and still use just one seal.
I have done this with Super Pros and other center pull, two pin containers.
It also can be done with containers with multiple pins,.


Jerry,
Why does the PIA rigging committee always approach things from a liberal standpoint?
The committee never seems to achieve it's goal anyway when they do approach from that standpoint.

...which in most cases like this, a good thing!

See ya at Daytona,
Mark

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[JerryBaumchen 1,468]

Hi Mark,

Quote

Why does the PIA rigging committee always approach things from a liberal standpoint?

That is a completey subjective comment.

I am just glad that they are taking some pro-active efforts on things.

Quote

The committee never seems to achieve it's goal anyway when they do approach from that standpoint.

This may just be the solution you want.

See you next month,

JerryBaumchen

[pchapman 279]

I'm not adding much here; just giving a thumbs up.

It is nice to see that the PIA is trying to get things changed. It doesn't mean the sealing process has to change, just that it would be good to have a process by which the FAA would accept input and consider changes in the future.

I personally think that it is worth examining the possibility of non-lead seals, and examining how other countries do things, whatever the outcome may be.

The new water meter in my house has a plastic seal on the sealing wire, so governments can change. (Although its particular design isn't necessarily practical for parachutes.)

Plus for the short term, it would be useful to get clarification on the issue of broken seals, and inform them on the sport's views on that issue.

[aerorigging 6]

I use this, its better than the lead and safer I think!, adhesive tyvek paper, you can stamp it, sign it, stay there without broking the thread and come in many colors, also eventually can go trought the grommet without any snaging
Also the FAR 65 or manuals dont say lead
Nicolas Lopez
Master Rigger Argentina

Nicolas Lopez
Master Rigger
Aerorigging Parachute Loft

[IanHarrop 42]

Quote

I use this, its better than the lead and safer I think!, adhesive tyvek paper, you can stamp it, sign it, stay there without broking the thread and come in many colors, also eventually can go trought the grommet without any snaging
Also the FAR 65 or manuals dont say lead
Nicolas Lopez
Master Rigger Argentina

Does the seal press leave a imprint on the tyvek seals?

I am asking only because of the need to comply with the FAR:

"Federal Aviation Regulations - Sec. 65.133 — Seal.

Each certificated parachute rigger must have a seal with an identifying mark prescribed by the Administrator, and a seal press. After packing a parachute he shall seal the pack with his seal in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendation for that type of parachute. "

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[koppel 5]

In Australia the paper seals are available free from the APF office.

I prefer the BPA sealing method for two reasons. Firstly is that it adds no extra force to the pull force of the ripcord and secondly it ensures that the seal stays with in place. It's one less thing to cause a problem. I have found a couple of paper seals in hard housings on a rig when they were attached in the normal method.

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[masterrigger1 2]

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Also the FAR 65 or manuals dont say lead

You must have missed the document that I was speaking of.
It is attached.

The FAA issued a ruling that it MUST be a lead seal that is used no paper seals are allowed.

So if you are a FAA master rigger and your pack jobs are used in the USA, they must be made of lead, not paper.


MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

hy does the PIA rigging committee always approach things from a liberal standpoint?

That is a completey subjective comment.

I am just glad that they are taking some pro-active efforts on things.

I, for one, consider it to be a detrimental effort as I think the majority of the riggers like the current method and seal type.

And like John Sherman stated, "if it ain't broke.....

But you can do a poll if you like.

Quote

This may just be the solution you want

No, the solution that I would like to see is that the rigging committee move to focus on more serious issues like containers not opening , AAD's not working, and etc.....

But then again, I am part of the problem by not being involved with the rigging committee.

Maybe we can change that soon.
I am retiring March 16 and will have plenty of time on my hands.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[aerorigging 6]

Tanks MEL for your info, I agree, its a lot of more important stuff outhere than seals. Like AADs banning, containers, Pilot chutes, etc

Nicolas Lopez
Master Rigger
Aerorigging Parachute Loft