Guns in cockpits?

[wlie 0]

You betcha sorry ass Bin Terrorizin'! Looks like the new homeland security bill that President Bush signed allows it. Read here.

My other ride is the relative wind.

[wingnut 0]

only thing is when ya take weapons into a fight they can be turned against ya.....so i'm thinking......shoot now..ask questions later.. there should be a line in the cabin...like a don't cross this line under any sircumstances or you will be shot line.....and as some say if they cross the line...kill em all let god sort em out...

______________________________________
"i have no reader's digest version"

[phatcat 0]

What ever happened to that impenatrable (sp) door thing? I still think that is the best bet.

[Gawain 0]

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What ever happened to that impenatrable (sp) door thing? I still think that is the best bet.

They aren't inpenetratable, just stronger. I think they refer to them as #-minute doors, referring to the number of minutes for a certain weight of abuse, etc.

As for the pilots with guns, it's a real double edged sword. Take one fanatical freak, trained, young, mobile versus a pilot, belted into his seat, back to the door. Maybe the pilot hits his target upon break in, maybe he hits a passenger being used as a battering ram and ends up getting disarmed. Now the passengers have less to fight back with.

If you keep a level playing field in terms of no firearms. The passengers have a better chance of beating the sh*t outta the freaks... just my opinion...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[phatcat 0]

Okay, so put in a 2" thick steel door. What are they going to do? Smuggle on welding equipment?

[Gawain 0]

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Okay, so put in a 2" thick steel door. What are they going to do? Smuggle on welding equipment?

LOL! Sure, I'll fly the friendly skies in a plane with its nose pointed down, and bending in two from the weight...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[ECVZZ 0]

Any shooting is a split second judgement. I carry a hangun (concealed) daily, and take it very seriously. Anyone with a CCW knows the legalities of the use of deadly force, it's part of the required training in every state that allows CCW.

Mindset is a major part of survival in a lethal force encounter. I would rather have a pilot with a strong personal will to survive using deadly force (read: FIREARM!), than one who thinks that the best chance for him and his passengers is to submit to a hijacker!

I shoot in IDPA and IPSC (USPSA) matches regularly with police officers. My CCW class was taught by the senior man on the SWAT team for the Washoe county Sheriffs dept.. Among the officers "in the know", it is preferred that citizens be trained and armed.

Of the officers who are non-shooters, the qualification course they must pass is a joke, (btw, so are most required civilian CCW courses of fire!) and any IDPA marksman could easily best most of them in accuracy, and shoot/no-shoots.

Give me a trained, armed PIC any day! Better than this, let me carry on commercial flights. I know leathal force doctrine as well as any police officer or attorney in my state (yes, including desparity of force!), and my accuracy is much better than the average law enforcement officer.

If you question what I'm saying, then good for you. It's always good to ask questions. To reassure you, my sister is Defense counsel for the Riverside County Sheriffs Dept., My brother in law is a civilian criminal defense attorney, and a member of the Marine corps JAG's office.

My personal attorney locally is a former assistant DA for Washoe county, NV., and my CCW instructors were Mike Robbins and Dave Keller of Sierra firearms academy, Reno S/O, And RPD (Dave was until last year, sr. man on the SWAT team, also).

I outshoot most of our local sworn law enforcement officers. Not because I am inherently better, but because I enjoy shooting combat pistol, therefore shoot more often.

So...which path would you prefer in a hijacking? If you are that vehemently anti-gun as to go against common sense and statistics, then so be it. Hope you enjoy the taste when you kiss your ass goodbye!

Greg

[diverdriver 7]

"Qualified to fly. Qualified to defend."

It's not that we want guns in the cockpit and look forward to actually having to take a human life. But if someone wants my weapon of mass destruction (read airliner with thousands of pounds of flamable Jet A fuel) then I need the tools to try and prevent that from happening. Those that think only large airplanes are at risk are nuts. ALL flying aircraft can be used for terrorism. I'm not letting any secret out. Take a Cessna 206. Fill it with fuel. Then fly it into an open air stadium on a nationally televised football game. Makes no difference. NFL. College. Whatever. Even if they only kill say 100 people the effect is terror and the economy will suffer again. That's what they want. The killing of the people is just a means to an end. They want to destroy our way of life.

So, since an airliner is a much more efficient tool of potential destruction we need the ability to keep control over the aircraft. If a passenger is used as a shield and we shoot them I'm sorry. But I did not create this situation. They could use that passenger as a shield whether I have a gun or not. Difference is, without the gun, they are most certainly going to have control of the aircraft.

First line of defense is terminal security. X-ray machines, hand wands, and pat downs. Second line is security in the boarding areas. Look for any suspicious activity. Third line are the passengers. If there is an uprising, they need to fight back immediately en-mass. Fourth line is the cockpit door. It needs to be as strong and tamper proof as possible. Remember, it has to have some sort of holes in it to equalize pressure in case of an emergency depressurization. But a body should not be able to fit through these holes so as to defeat the locking mechanisms. And the LAST line of defense, after all the other lines have failed to prevent intrusion into the cockpit, is a HIGHLY trained, HIGHLY motivated pilot officer with a gun. The ONLY shooting I will do is if someone enters the threshold into the cockpit. I will not leave the cockpit to fight in the cabin.

If they get my gun away from me and kill me and my First Officer then we lost. They were going to kill us anyway with a suicide attack by flying the aircraft into something anyway. The outcome is still the same. Guns in the cockpit is but another tool in an effort to BREAK the chain of events that could lead to another attack like 9/11. Nothing more.

Chris Schindler
Airline Pilot CRJ-200

[Rdutch 0]

I still think there is an alternative to a handgun, which can penetrate a planes hull. A commercial airliner only has 7lbs psi of pressure in it, but that is per square inch so if you add all the inches, that adds up to a large amount of pressure. A gunshot that misses its target can cause a catastrophic reaction, that could possibly bring the plane down. Maybe a Tazer gun, or a bean bag firing weapon could be used.
Also the door to the cockpit doesn't have to be made of steel to be impossible to get through without tool's, composite doors would be a lot stronger than steel and weigh a 10th of what steel would weigh.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[freeflir29 0]

I think it is GENERALLY a good idea. The only thing that worries me is the "standard" scenario. Terrorist in the back beating the shit out of a stewardess. His aim....to get the pilot to open the door. Pilots must understand and be ready to make the decision that their #1 priority is to get the plane to the ground safely. The gun is only there to defend the cockpit. Not the rest of the flight crew or passengers. Not an easy decision to make but that's what MUST be done. If the pilots can do that I say arm them. Save the heroics for AFTER the plane is parked.

[diverdriver 7]

You can carry silver tip bullets that "splatter" on impact. You can also carry a firearm that does not have as much velocity as others.

There are options here that will still kill without doing catastophic damage to the aircraft. And do you think the airplane is a perfectly sealed tube now? That's incorrect. We have 2 big holes in the back of the cabin called "outflow valves". They open and close to maintain a certain cabin pressure. Punching holes in the hull IS undesirable but losing pressure as opposed to losing control of the aircraft totally is an acceptable risk.

Chris

[rgoper 0]

whatever happened to the doors from the series Star Trek? they had an electric barrier surrounding the frame, and unless your were authorized to come into a certain area, you go the s**t shocked out of you! this would take guns out of the cockpit, and keep the holligans away as well. i fly trans atlantic twice a month, and the wierd thing is, everytime we board the jet, we pass right by the cockpit, and can see both pilots doing their preflight, and i have yet to notice any extra locks on the cockpit doors. by the way, this refers to northwest, and duth royal klm airlines, i can't speak for others. i can see where the people in coach never knew what happened that fatefull day on 09/11.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[freeflir29 0]

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Punching holes in the hull IS undesirable but losing pressure as opposed to losing control of the aircraft totally is an acceptable risk.

Come on...we've all seen the movies!!! When a hole is punched in the side of the aircraft paper flies everywhere...several people get "sucked" out and the plane goes into an uncontrollable dive with both pilots straining to pull back on the yoke....

[diverdriver 7]

It's ok.....I just hit the "auto-pilot" button and that little guy inflates taking control.....no more problems.

[freeflir29 0]

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that little guy inflates taking control

Just make sure you have a stewardess handy in case he needs to be "blown" back up.....

[diverdriver 7]

Buzz Lightyear quote:

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You're mocking me. Aren't you?

[freeflir29 0]

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You're mocking me. Aren't you?

Uuuuuhhhh.....noooo.....of course not.......

[ECVZZ 0]

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You can carry silver tip bullets that "splatter" on impact. You can also carry a firearm that does not have as much velocity as others

Hi Chris! Just a note here to make a technical correction. Winchester Silvertips are known for their penetration characteristics, which is why they are among the most effective loads for many "small" calibre firearms (most notably, the .25, .32, and .380 ACP).

There are several proven frangible projectile loadings on the market at this time, 2 of them being the Magsafe, and the Glaser Safety Slug.

Both utilize "light for calibre" projectiles, launched at extreme velocity. The velocity (along with the design of the projectile) is what allows the projectile to fragment, and effect it's "energy dump" without over-penetration.

Being the technical minded person that you are, I thought you might appreciate this info.- That being said, I agree 100% with where you're going with your train of thought!

Greg

[diverdriver 7]

Yes, Glaser. Forgot the brand name. I've had a pretty steep learning curve on this as I was originally opposed to guns in the cockpit just after 9/11. I have since changed my view. I am going to take my first gun course some time next week before I buy my pre-second hand gun.

Chris

[freeflir29 0]

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I am going to take my first gun course

It's pretty amazing what a little education will do.

[AggieDave 6]

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before I buy my pre-second hand gun

Whatcha gonna get?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diverdriver 7]

I'm looking at a Glock 31 but that's part of what the course is for. So I know enough to ask the right questions and get the right feeling for me.

Chris

[freeflir29 0]

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I'm looking at a Glock 31

I don't think you can go wrong with a Glock but I also think that they aren't for everyone. Some may like and need a bit more safety features. The Glock is pretty much a "Combat" pistol.

[diverdriver 7]

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I'm looking at a Glock 31

I don't think you can go wrong with a Glock but I also think that they aren't for everyone. Some may like and need a bit more safety features. The Glock is pretty much a "Combat" pistol.

Uh.....if someone breaks into the cockpit...it's gonna be a combat situation.

[freeflir29 0]

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it's gonna be a combat situation

True...but some people like a weapon to have a "safety" in a truer sense. I used to be a die hard fan of the single action. More than once I have taken my pistol out of a "concealment" holster to find the safety was off because it was rubbing up against me. In the military I carried the Berretta which was almost "rediculously" safe with both a decocking lever AND a manual safety. The next pistol I bought was Double action with a decocking lever. No real safety on it. I think I like this one best. The first shot takes a fairly long trigger pull so I feel quite safe carrying it with "One in the pipe" and the decocking lever is a nice feature. If you need to use it you just draw, aim, and squeeze. No worries about getting the safety off like a single action and I think it's a bit safer than the Glock. Just my .02 though. BTW my "current" carry pistol is a Ruger P-94DC in .40 S&W.