billvon 3,116 #101 November 27, 2002 >I believe that Baghdad asked for it when they killed thousands of > Kuwaiti citizens. An eye for an eye.... If that's your sense of morals, then will the Iraqis be justified in using chemical weapons on NY if we bomb Baghdad and kill, say, 10,000? If they kill only 5000 in NY, will you congratulate them on their mercy, since they were entitled to 10,000 lives under your "eye for an eye" rule? "An eye for an eye" just doesn't work. It leaves the whole world blind, which a man much smarter than me once said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blueshrew 0 #102 November 27, 2002 Quote Automat Kalishnikovs are used all over the world...does that mean that the Soviet Union is attacking the rest of the world? Same goes for a lot of countries that are called terrorists, because some terrorists happened to be born there. Quote I know history. I'm not always right...but didn't Israel get attacked first? by Egypt? Well it deffinitely was not by Egypt, more like Israel attacked Egypt, occupied Sinai, then was later defeated by Egypt in most of Sinai, and the last part of Sinai was ordered back to Egypt by the UN. But while it's a subject, have you checked the Jewish/Palestinian regions in Israel in 1967 and compared that to the map today? Now why does the US jump in everywhere except there? I have always wondered about that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blueshrew 0 #103 November 27, 2002 Quote Quote I personally just don't agree with most of your foreign policy. Haaaa.......find ANYONE that does.... Good point! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #104 November 27, 2002 QuoteQuoteHELLO? Do you realize we are at war? Does the term for the greater good mean anything to you? QuoteWe are at war? I don't remember Congress declaring war. Oh, the war on terror? Like the war on drugs? And the war on poverty? By those standards, we've been at war perpetually. Look, we are not at war, so please don't use that as justification for dismantling all that is worthwhile about the US. I can understand why our leaders feed us this crap. What I can't understand is why the sheep are eating it up. So we're not at war? So what was I doing in Afganistan? It sure wasn't because of the great Boogies they have there. I also think that my buddys wife would beg to differ that we're not at war since her husband came back in a body bag. I guess those bullets striking the helo weren't real either? I also guess the twin towers are still standing and all that talk was about a Speilburg movie? I'm not dismantling anything. I'm one of the many faceless and names service members who is defending EVERYTHING that is worth while in this country. Until I see your ass over there on the ground sucking it up YOU will continue to be a sheep."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scoby 0 #105 November 27, 2002 QuoteSo we're not at war? So what was I doing in Afganistan? It sure wasn't because of the great Boogies they have there. The answer is no, you were not at a declared war. Sorry. QuoteI also think that my buddys wife would beg to differ that we're not at war since her husband came back in a body bag. I guess those bullets striking the helo weren't real either? I also guess the twin towers are still standing and all that talk was about a Speilburg movie? I'm sorry for your loss. Truly. But no war has been declared, and your friend's death doesn't change that. You certainly could claim a year ago that we were in a de facto war. You cannot even claim that now. If we are in a war now, then when can we claim victory? QuoteI'm not dismantling anything. I'm one of the many faceless and names service members who is defending EVERYTHING that is worth while in this country. Until I see your ass over there on the ground sucking it up YOU will continue to be a sheep. The attitude that being in the military somehow gives you special insight is galling. I have massive respect for people who serve and defend the US. I don't see how that confers any sort of additional wisdom that civilians don't have. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #106 November 27, 2002 QuoteI don't see how that confers any sort of additional wisdom that civilians don't have. Because you know why they call it "Serving your country." You understand what "The Price of Freedom" is. Trust me....it does give you major insight over the "Average American." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scoby 0 #107 November 27, 2002 QuoteBecause you know why they call it "Serving your country." You understand what "The Price of Freedom" is. Trust me....it does give you major insight over the "Average American." For what it's worth, I'm not an american and my country doesn't have much of a military. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #108 November 27, 2002 QuoteI'm not an american Then I don't expect you to understand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chachi 0 #109 November 27, 2002 QuoteQuoteI don't see how that confers any sort of additional wisdom that civilians don't have. Because you know why they call it "Serving your country." You understand what "The Price of Freedom" is. Trust me....it does give you major insight over the "Average American." I don't believe it gives you any insight. It should owe you some respect and a huge debt of gratitude for doing a very much thankless job. I do not think it entitles you to call an obviously educated person a SHEEP becasue he happens to disagree with statements and events that have been perpetuated by a government that does things in the name of oil that they condemn the rest of the world for. I believe I can say this as I have served MY country and YOURS by being in the miliatary and fighting along side the US. ~Chachi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #110 November 27, 2002 "While we're at it, let's have 13 minutes of silence for the 130,000 Iraqi civilians killed in 1991 by order of President Bush Sr" 130,000 civilians? Seems like a large number. In a country of 23 million, 130K of soldiers is possible, but that many civilians? Nope. "Or for the millions of children who have died because of the USA embargoes on Iraq and Cuba." MILLIONS? of children. Cuba - population 11.25 million Iraq - population 23 million Source - online CIA fact book. No. I do not think the millions of children have died. I do not think that anything close to that number have died because of any embargo. The numbers posted were meant to be inflammatory, not accurate. Kind of hard to discuss things in that light. Millions? Where did you get these numbers from? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scoby 0 #111 November 27, 2002 QuoteThen I don't expect you to understand. That's really convenient. It's similar to when people say, "it's a black thing, you wouldn't understand." If you expect me to give your perspective any respect, you are going to have to explain it. Why does serving in the military give someone insight into whether or not the government policies are correct that a civilian does not have? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #112 November 27, 2002 Quoteobviously educated person a SHEEP Education has nothing to do with someone being called a "Sheep." A warrior is a warrior and a sheep is a sheep. Quotethat does things in the name of oil that they condemn the rest of the world for It's NEVER just about oil. Oil is only ONE of the reasons. It's a lot more about preserving the status quo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scoby 0 #113 November 27, 2002 QuoteEducation has nothing to do with someone being called a "Sheep." A warrior is a warrior and a sheep is a sheep. So is someone who pushes around paper in the military a warrior? Or a sheep? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,116 #114 November 27, 2002 >It's similar to when people say, "it's a black thing, you wouldn't understand." And as fruitful to argue about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #115 November 27, 2002 QuoteWhy does serving in the military give someone insight into whether or not the government policies are correct that a civilian does not have? Because you learn that government policy is NOT what it's about. Having warriors that are willing to get the job done is what it's about. You also learn that it simply comes down to kill them before they kill you. Period. It makes things simple. Consider that lesson #1. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chachi 0 #116 November 27, 2002 Quote"While we're at it, let's have 13 minutes of silence for the 130,000 Iraqi civilians killed in 1991 by order of President Bush Sr" 130,000 civilians? Seems like a large number. In a country of 23 million, 130K of soldiers is possible, but that many civilians? Nope. "Or for the millions of children who have died because of the USA embargoes on Iraq and Cuba." MILLIONS? of children. Cuba - population 11.25 million Iraq - population 23 million Source - online CIA fact book. No. I do not think the millions of children have died. I do not think that anything close to that number have died because of any embargo. The numbers posted were meant to be inflammatory, not accurate. Kind of hard to discuss things in that light. Millions? Where did you get these numbers from? Well this article can start explaining the first 500,000 would you like me to look for more. http://www.endiraqsanctions.net/resources/classified.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chachi 0 #117 November 27, 2002 Quote"While we're at it, let's have 13 minutes of silence for the 130,000 Iraqi civilians killed in 1991 by order of President Bush Sr" 130,000 civilians? Seems like a large number. In a country of 23 million, 130K of soldiers is possible, but that many civilians? Nope. "Or for the millions of children who have died because of the USA embargoes on Iraq and Cuba." MILLIONS? of children. Cuba - population 11.25 million Iraq - population 23 million Source - online CIA fact book. No. I do not think the millions of children have died. I do not think that anything close to that number have died because of any embargo. The numbers posted were meant to be inflammatory, not accurate. Kind of hard to discuss things in that light. Millions? Where did you get these numbers from? This one definately explains the rest. www.ippnw.org/gulfwarfacts.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #118 November 27, 2002 QuoteSo is someone who pushes around paper in the military a warrior? Or a sheep? On the average a sheep. However, I don't want to make that a stereotype. I'll just put it this way. I...as a person....changed my entire outlook on the world when I became a Forward Air Controller. I was vastly changed from my years as an aircraft mechanic. The difference between the two is more about mindset than what job you have. Many people only get the warrior mindset from the job though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scoby 0 #119 November 27, 2002 QuoteQuoteSo is someone who pushes around paper in the military a warrior? Or a sheep? On the average a sheep. However, I don't want to make that a stereotype. I'll just put it this way. I...as a person....changed my entire outlook on the world when I became a Forward Air Controller. I was vastly changed from my years as an aircraft mechanic. The difference between the two is more about mindset than what job you have. Many people only get the warrior mindset from the job though. OK, well, I respect your perspective, even if I don't share it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #120 November 27, 2002 QuoteWhile we're at it, let's have 13 minutes of silence for the 130,000 Iraqi civilians killed in 1991 by order of President Bush Sr. 130,000 Civilians? What's your source? 130,000 Iraqi army soldiers is more like it. And that wasn't just the US, that was 30 countries in that little war, O Canada was in the mix with us. Your hands aren't clean either. Another 15 minutes of silence for the Russians and 150,000 Afghans killed by the Taliban troops who were supported and trained by the CIA. Check your facts, the Taliban was sponsored, trained and supported by Pakistan. The Mujahadeen (which did include UBL at the time) were trained by the CIA and the Saudis and were provided materiel support. The Taliban came to power in the early 90s, long after the Soviets left, and US/Saudi support withdrew. Plus 10 minutes of silence for 100,000 Japanese killed in Hiroshimaand. Nagasakiby the Atomic bombs dropped by the USA. Let's see...100,000 versus 1,000,000 civilians; 2,000,000 Japanese troops and an Allied invasion force of at least 3,000,000 plus a Soviet invasion from the west, adding another 2 years to WWII...total casualty risk, approximately 3,000,000 DEAD. Those were the estimates and the choices that Truman had to make in 1945. Do the math, what decision would you have made, not having any hind-sight? It ended the war, we rebuilt Japan and everyone is kicking ass and taking names. Or for the millions of children who have died because of the USA embargoes on Iraq and Cuba. Or the hundreds of thousands brutally murdered throughout the world by USA-sponsored civil wars and coups d'etat (Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia, Guatemala, El Salvadorto name a few). Okay, so the UN Oil for Food/Medicine program in Iraq is failing and that's our fault? That's Saddam 100%. Cuba is doing fine without us, Canada imports its cigars, providing revenue to the all loving Castro...he has no role to play in the health of his citizens? It's the great communist model Comrade! Those little civil wars weren't all about us were they? I bet there were more AK47s being aimed at kids than there were M16s. It's no secret that the North Vietnamese were notoriously brutal to the civilian population. Read about the "Killing Fields" of Cambodia...was that America's hand too? Maybe, and although the memory of Americans claims otherwise, someone may remember the USA attack on Baghdad where 18,000 civilians were killed. Sure would like to see the source of that information.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #121 November 27, 2002 Quoteeven if I don't share it I hope that may give you a tiny insight. However.....it seems like this is comparable to trying to explain a sunset to a person that was blind since birth. Just kinda impossible. I could write a book on how strange it has been to come back to "civilian" life. Coming to work in an office with a bunch of "normal people." It also made me realize JUST how differen't I had become over the years. It's been a strange trip. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #122 November 27, 2002 QuoteThe answer is no, you were not at a declared war. Sorry. QuoteI'm sorry for your loss. Truly. But no war has been declared, and your friend's death doesn't change that. You certainly could claim a year ago that we were in a de facto war. You cannot even claim that now. If we are in a war now, then when can we claim victory? I never said it was declared but that is semantics. Right now there are Americans putting lead down range so your sorry ass can sit at home complaining about how your rights are being infringed on. You can wrap a ribbon around a turd but it still is a turd. Any way you want to look at it, it's war. QuoteThe attitude that being in the military somehow gives you special insight is galling. I have massive respect for people who serve and defend the US. I don't see how that confers any sort of additional wisdom that civilians don't have. Special rights? You show your ignorance. Service members have LESS rights than the average American and yet THEY (we)are the ones serving this country. Unlucky1 and afew others hit the nail on the head, but it's apparent they have served their country. For those who have never served you will never understand. Kinda like a whuffo trying to understand why people jump out of airplanes. Bottom line: I have half truth from both sides. It is apparent that there are a lot of shit house lawyers here with only half of the story. And for some of them I can clearly see that the old saying "you can lead a horse to water" stands true. I have been in every altercation since Panama and several other countries around the globe. I have to echo what was already said. If you wern't there you can't say shit. There is NO place on this planet like the US. Some places have better this or better that but NONE have it all like we do in the USA. Quotein reply to Chachi : I don't believe it gives you any insight. It should owe you some respect and a huge debt of gratitude for doing a very much thankless job. I do not think it entitles you to call an obviously educated person a SHEEP becasue he happens to disagree with statements and events that have been perpetuated by a government that does things in the name of oil that they condemn the rest of the world for. I believe I can say this as I have served MY country and YOURS by being in the miliatary and fighting along side the US If you go back and read the post that I responded to you will see that the original poster called the US public sheep for believing what the Government says. I don't think my or anyone else having served in the military gives them a right over anyone else. But they do have an advantage. Those people have been in the REAL world and not the CNN, media portrayed world. We have seen things that can't be acurately described by words to convey them, because to the unknowing it would sound like an impossibility. To try and convince you otherwise would be like trying to argue with a turnip. To get this thread back on topic I suggest everyone go back and read the story at the following link http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20021126-6078727.htm because thats what this started this topic in the first place. I think education is the key, to study only one aspect/side of a problem is not understanding it."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chachi 0 #123 November 27, 2002 QuoteQuoteWhile we're at it, let's have 13 minutes of silence for the 130,000 Iraqi civilians killed in 1991 by order of President Bush Sr. 130,000 Civilians? What's your source? 130,000 Iraqi army soldiers is more like it. And that wasn't just the US, that was 30 countries in that little war, O Canada was in the mix with us. Your hands aren't clean either. Read the above documents I posted. I don't remember saying Canada is almighty innocent. I said it was a US led attack, with a US General and gov't at the head of it all. These are again examples. Another 15 minutes of silence for the Russians and 150,000 Afghans killed by the Taliban troops who were supported and trained by the CIA. Check your facts, the Taliban was sponsored, trained and supported by Pakistan. The Mujahadeen (which did include UBL at the time) were trained by the CIA and the Saudis and were provided materiel support. The Taliban came to power in the early 90s, long after the Soviets left, and US/Saudi support withdrew. You are wrong the US does not deny having funded the Taliban. Plus 10 minutes of silence for 100,000 Japanese killed in Hiroshimaand. Nagasakiby the Atomic bombs dropped by the USA. Let's see...100,000 versus 1,000,000 civilians; 2,000,000 Japanese troops and an Allied invasion force of at least 3,000,000 plus a Soviet invasion from the west, adding another 2 years to WWII...total casualty risk, approximately 3,000,000 DEAD. Those were the estimates and the choices that Truman had to make in 1945. Do the math, what decision would you have made, not having any hind-sight? It ended the war, we rebuilt Japan and everyone is kicking ass and taking names. Read above posts, i agreed with this one openly. Quit pinpointing your argument on one post in an entire epic saga of posts. Or for the millions of children who have died because of the USA embargoes on Iraq and Cuba. Or the hundreds of thousands brutally murdered throughout the world by USA-sponsored civil wars and coups d'etat (Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia, Guatemala, El Salvadorto name a few). Okay, so the UN Oil for Food/Medicine program in Iraq is failing and that's our fault? That's Saddam 100%. Cuba is doing fine without us, Canada imports its cigars, providing revenue to the all loving Castro...he has no role to play in the health of his citizens? It's the great communist model Comrade! Those little civil wars weren't all about us were they? I bet there were more AK47s being aimed at kids than there were M16s. It's no secret that the North Vietnamese were notoriously brutal to the civilian population. Read about the "Killing Fields" of Cambodia...was that America's hand too? I do believe you miss the point kind sir. It is about world views not mine. If you read the context of my post and argument it was all about why the world views USA the way they do not the way I do. If you will read above you will see how I fell about the US. I belive I made it clear after Michelles post. Maybe, and although the memory of Americans claims otherwise, someone may remember the USA attack on Baghdad where 18,000 civilians were killed. Sure would like to see the source of that information. Currently looking I will providea link. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #124 November 27, 2002 I'm soooo sure that those links have unbiased data on them...show me stats from an unbiased third party, THEN I might start to believe your argument.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #125 November 27, 2002 QuoteYou are wrong the US does not deny having funded the Taliban. The funding you are referring to was a Clinton era "award" for the Taliban's efforts to wipe out the poppy fields and opium, etc. The alignment of the Taliban took hold after the Soviets withdrew. They were solidified with support from Pakistan because Pakistan needed a stable border to it's north and west to focus on India. That resulted in the Taliban taking control of the country (well 80%), minus the Northern Alliance, which then no longer posed a threat to Pakistans borders. QuoteI do believe you miss the point kind sir. It is about world views not mine. If you read the context of my post and argument it was all about why the world views USA the way they do not the way I do. If you will read above you will see how I fell about the US. I belive I made it clear after Michelles post. In a way, you are arguing the point for me too. The world views, with arrogance I might add, our policys when it is these very policies that saved western civilization from communism, national socialism, and literally millions of lives. I don't think it's about jealousy as I do think it's about arrogance. I think it is arrogant of the world to criticize us of arrogance. Gordon Sinclair said it best 30 years ago, "The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, war-mongering Americans." We've tried to stay out of it, time and time again...WWI, WWII, Bosnia, etc. Then we get kicked in the n*ts and the rest of the world gets fluttered when we take notice?! That's arrogance.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 5 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Scoby 0 #105 November 27, 2002 QuoteSo we're not at war? So what was I doing in Afganistan? It sure wasn't because of the great Boogies they have there. The answer is no, you were not at a declared war. Sorry. QuoteI also think that my buddys wife would beg to differ that we're not at war since her husband came back in a body bag. I guess those bullets striking the helo weren't real either? I also guess the twin towers are still standing and all that talk was about a Speilburg movie? I'm sorry for your loss. Truly. But no war has been declared, and your friend's death doesn't change that. You certainly could claim a year ago that we were in a de facto war. You cannot even claim that now. If we are in a war now, then when can we claim victory? QuoteI'm not dismantling anything. I'm one of the many faceless and names service members who is defending EVERYTHING that is worth while in this country. Until I see your ass over there on the ground sucking it up YOU will continue to be a sheep. The attitude that being in the military somehow gives you special insight is galling. I have massive respect for people who serve and defend the US. I don't see how that confers any sort of additional wisdom that civilians don't have. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #106 November 27, 2002 QuoteI don't see how that confers any sort of additional wisdom that civilians don't have. Because you know why they call it "Serving your country." You understand what "The Price of Freedom" is. Trust me....it does give you major insight over the "Average American." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoby 0 #107 November 27, 2002 QuoteBecause you know why they call it "Serving your country." You understand what "The Price of Freedom" is. Trust me....it does give you major insight over the "Average American." For what it's worth, I'm not an american and my country doesn't have much of a military. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #108 November 27, 2002 QuoteI'm not an american Then I don't expect you to understand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chachi 0 #109 November 27, 2002 QuoteQuoteI don't see how that confers any sort of additional wisdom that civilians don't have. Because you know why they call it "Serving your country." You understand what "The Price of Freedom" is. Trust me....it does give you major insight over the "Average American." I don't believe it gives you any insight. It should owe you some respect and a huge debt of gratitude for doing a very much thankless job. I do not think it entitles you to call an obviously educated person a SHEEP becasue he happens to disagree with statements and events that have been perpetuated by a government that does things in the name of oil that they condemn the rest of the world for. I believe I can say this as I have served MY country and YOURS by being in the miliatary and fighting along side the US. ~Chachi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #110 November 27, 2002 "While we're at it, let's have 13 minutes of silence for the 130,000 Iraqi civilians killed in 1991 by order of President Bush Sr" 130,000 civilians? Seems like a large number. In a country of 23 million, 130K of soldiers is possible, but that many civilians? Nope. "Or for the millions of children who have died because of the USA embargoes on Iraq and Cuba." MILLIONS? of children. Cuba - population 11.25 million Iraq - population 23 million Source - online CIA fact book. No. I do not think the millions of children have died. I do not think that anything close to that number have died because of any embargo. The numbers posted were meant to be inflammatory, not accurate. Kind of hard to discuss things in that light. Millions? Where did you get these numbers from? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoby 0 #111 November 27, 2002 QuoteThen I don't expect you to understand. That's really convenient. It's similar to when people say, "it's a black thing, you wouldn't understand." If you expect me to give your perspective any respect, you are going to have to explain it. Why does serving in the military give someone insight into whether or not the government policies are correct that a civilian does not have? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #112 November 27, 2002 Quoteobviously educated person a SHEEP Education has nothing to do with someone being called a "Sheep." A warrior is a warrior and a sheep is a sheep. Quotethat does things in the name of oil that they condemn the rest of the world for It's NEVER just about oil. Oil is only ONE of the reasons. It's a lot more about preserving the status quo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoby 0 #113 November 27, 2002 QuoteEducation has nothing to do with someone being called a "Sheep." A warrior is a warrior and a sheep is a sheep. So is someone who pushes around paper in the military a warrior? Or a sheep? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #114 November 27, 2002 >It's similar to when people say, "it's a black thing, you wouldn't understand." And as fruitful to argue about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #115 November 27, 2002 QuoteWhy does serving in the military give someone insight into whether or not the government policies are correct that a civilian does not have? Because you learn that government policy is NOT what it's about. Having warriors that are willing to get the job done is what it's about. You also learn that it simply comes down to kill them before they kill you. Period. It makes things simple. Consider that lesson #1. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chachi 0 #116 November 27, 2002 Quote"While we're at it, let's have 13 minutes of silence for the 130,000 Iraqi civilians killed in 1991 by order of President Bush Sr" 130,000 civilians? Seems like a large number. In a country of 23 million, 130K of soldiers is possible, but that many civilians? Nope. "Or for the millions of children who have died because of the USA embargoes on Iraq and Cuba." MILLIONS? of children. Cuba - population 11.25 million Iraq - population 23 million Source - online CIA fact book. No. I do not think the millions of children have died. I do not think that anything close to that number have died because of any embargo. The numbers posted were meant to be inflammatory, not accurate. Kind of hard to discuss things in that light. Millions? Where did you get these numbers from? Well this article can start explaining the first 500,000 would you like me to look for more. http://www.endiraqsanctions.net/resources/classified.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chachi 0 #117 November 27, 2002 Quote"While we're at it, let's have 13 minutes of silence for the 130,000 Iraqi civilians killed in 1991 by order of President Bush Sr" 130,000 civilians? Seems like a large number. In a country of 23 million, 130K of soldiers is possible, but that many civilians? Nope. "Or for the millions of children who have died because of the USA embargoes on Iraq and Cuba." MILLIONS? of children. Cuba - population 11.25 million Iraq - population 23 million Source - online CIA fact book. No. I do not think the millions of children have died. I do not think that anything close to that number have died because of any embargo. The numbers posted were meant to be inflammatory, not accurate. Kind of hard to discuss things in that light. Millions? Where did you get these numbers from? This one definately explains the rest. www.ippnw.org/gulfwarfacts.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #118 November 27, 2002 QuoteSo is someone who pushes around paper in the military a warrior? Or a sheep? On the average a sheep. However, I don't want to make that a stereotype. I'll just put it this way. I...as a person....changed my entire outlook on the world when I became a Forward Air Controller. I was vastly changed from my years as an aircraft mechanic. The difference between the two is more about mindset than what job you have. Many people only get the warrior mindset from the job though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoby 0 #119 November 27, 2002 QuoteQuoteSo is someone who pushes around paper in the military a warrior? Or a sheep? On the average a sheep. However, I don't want to make that a stereotype. I'll just put it this way. I...as a person....changed my entire outlook on the world when I became a Forward Air Controller. I was vastly changed from my years as an aircraft mechanic. The difference between the two is more about mindset than what job you have. Many people only get the warrior mindset from the job though. OK, well, I respect your perspective, even if I don't share it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #120 November 27, 2002 QuoteWhile we're at it, let's have 13 minutes of silence for the 130,000 Iraqi civilians killed in 1991 by order of President Bush Sr. 130,000 Civilians? What's your source? 130,000 Iraqi army soldiers is more like it. And that wasn't just the US, that was 30 countries in that little war, O Canada was in the mix with us. Your hands aren't clean either. Another 15 minutes of silence for the Russians and 150,000 Afghans killed by the Taliban troops who were supported and trained by the CIA. Check your facts, the Taliban was sponsored, trained and supported by Pakistan. The Mujahadeen (which did include UBL at the time) were trained by the CIA and the Saudis and were provided materiel support. The Taliban came to power in the early 90s, long after the Soviets left, and US/Saudi support withdrew. Plus 10 minutes of silence for 100,000 Japanese killed in Hiroshimaand. Nagasakiby the Atomic bombs dropped by the USA. Let's see...100,000 versus 1,000,000 civilians; 2,000,000 Japanese troops and an Allied invasion force of at least 3,000,000 plus a Soviet invasion from the west, adding another 2 years to WWII...total casualty risk, approximately 3,000,000 DEAD. Those were the estimates and the choices that Truman had to make in 1945. Do the math, what decision would you have made, not having any hind-sight? It ended the war, we rebuilt Japan and everyone is kicking ass and taking names. Or for the millions of children who have died because of the USA embargoes on Iraq and Cuba. Or the hundreds of thousands brutally murdered throughout the world by USA-sponsored civil wars and coups d'etat (Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia, Guatemala, El Salvadorto name a few). Okay, so the UN Oil for Food/Medicine program in Iraq is failing and that's our fault? That's Saddam 100%. Cuba is doing fine without us, Canada imports its cigars, providing revenue to the all loving Castro...he has no role to play in the health of his citizens? It's the great communist model Comrade! Those little civil wars weren't all about us were they? I bet there were more AK47s being aimed at kids than there were M16s. It's no secret that the North Vietnamese were notoriously brutal to the civilian population. Read about the "Killing Fields" of Cambodia...was that America's hand too? Maybe, and although the memory of Americans claims otherwise, someone may remember the USA attack on Baghdad where 18,000 civilians were killed. Sure would like to see the source of that information.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #121 November 27, 2002 Quoteeven if I don't share it I hope that may give you a tiny insight. However.....it seems like this is comparable to trying to explain a sunset to a person that was blind since birth. Just kinda impossible. I could write a book on how strange it has been to come back to "civilian" life. Coming to work in an office with a bunch of "normal people." It also made me realize JUST how differen't I had become over the years. It's been a strange trip. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #122 November 27, 2002 QuoteThe answer is no, you were not at a declared war. Sorry. QuoteI'm sorry for your loss. Truly. But no war has been declared, and your friend's death doesn't change that. You certainly could claim a year ago that we were in a de facto war. You cannot even claim that now. If we are in a war now, then when can we claim victory? I never said it was declared but that is semantics. Right now there are Americans putting lead down range so your sorry ass can sit at home complaining about how your rights are being infringed on. You can wrap a ribbon around a turd but it still is a turd. Any way you want to look at it, it's war. QuoteThe attitude that being in the military somehow gives you special insight is galling. I have massive respect for people who serve and defend the US. I don't see how that confers any sort of additional wisdom that civilians don't have. Special rights? You show your ignorance. Service members have LESS rights than the average American and yet THEY (we)are the ones serving this country. Unlucky1 and afew others hit the nail on the head, but it's apparent they have served their country. For those who have never served you will never understand. Kinda like a whuffo trying to understand why people jump out of airplanes. Bottom line: I have half truth from both sides. It is apparent that there are a lot of shit house lawyers here with only half of the story. And for some of them I can clearly see that the old saying "you can lead a horse to water" stands true. I have been in every altercation since Panama and several other countries around the globe. I have to echo what was already said. If you wern't there you can't say shit. There is NO place on this planet like the US. Some places have better this or better that but NONE have it all like we do in the USA. Quotein reply to Chachi : I don't believe it gives you any insight. It should owe you some respect and a huge debt of gratitude for doing a very much thankless job. I do not think it entitles you to call an obviously educated person a SHEEP becasue he happens to disagree with statements and events that have been perpetuated by a government that does things in the name of oil that they condemn the rest of the world for. I believe I can say this as I have served MY country and YOURS by being in the miliatary and fighting along side the US If you go back and read the post that I responded to you will see that the original poster called the US public sheep for believing what the Government says. I don't think my or anyone else having served in the military gives them a right over anyone else. But they do have an advantage. Those people have been in the REAL world and not the CNN, media portrayed world. We have seen things that can't be acurately described by words to convey them, because to the unknowing it would sound like an impossibility. To try and convince you otherwise would be like trying to argue with a turnip. To get this thread back on topic I suggest everyone go back and read the story at the following link http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20021126-6078727.htm because thats what this started this topic in the first place. I think education is the key, to study only one aspect/side of a problem is not understanding it."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chachi 0 #123 November 27, 2002 QuoteQuoteWhile we're at it, let's have 13 minutes of silence for the 130,000 Iraqi civilians killed in 1991 by order of President Bush Sr. 130,000 Civilians? What's your source? 130,000 Iraqi army soldiers is more like it. And that wasn't just the US, that was 30 countries in that little war, O Canada was in the mix with us. Your hands aren't clean either. Read the above documents I posted. I don't remember saying Canada is almighty innocent. I said it was a US led attack, with a US General and gov't at the head of it all. These are again examples. Another 15 minutes of silence for the Russians and 150,000 Afghans killed by the Taliban troops who were supported and trained by the CIA. Check your facts, the Taliban was sponsored, trained and supported by Pakistan. The Mujahadeen (which did include UBL at the time) were trained by the CIA and the Saudis and were provided materiel support. The Taliban came to power in the early 90s, long after the Soviets left, and US/Saudi support withdrew. You are wrong the US does not deny having funded the Taliban. Plus 10 minutes of silence for 100,000 Japanese killed in Hiroshimaand. Nagasakiby the Atomic bombs dropped by the USA. Let's see...100,000 versus 1,000,000 civilians; 2,000,000 Japanese troops and an Allied invasion force of at least 3,000,000 plus a Soviet invasion from the west, adding another 2 years to WWII...total casualty risk, approximately 3,000,000 DEAD. Those were the estimates and the choices that Truman had to make in 1945. Do the math, what decision would you have made, not having any hind-sight? It ended the war, we rebuilt Japan and everyone is kicking ass and taking names. Read above posts, i agreed with this one openly. Quit pinpointing your argument on one post in an entire epic saga of posts. Or for the millions of children who have died because of the USA embargoes on Iraq and Cuba. Or the hundreds of thousands brutally murdered throughout the world by USA-sponsored civil wars and coups d'etat (Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia, Guatemala, El Salvadorto name a few). Okay, so the UN Oil for Food/Medicine program in Iraq is failing and that's our fault? That's Saddam 100%. Cuba is doing fine without us, Canada imports its cigars, providing revenue to the all loving Castro...he has no role to play in the health of his citizens? It's the great communist model Comrade! Those little civil wars weren't all about us were they? I bet there were more AK47s being aimed at kids than there were M16s. It's no secret that the North Vietnamese were notoriously brutal to the civilian population. Read about the "Killing Fields" of Cambodia...was that America's hand too? I do believe you miss the point kind sir. It is about world views not mine. If you read the context of my post and argument it was all about why the world views USA the way they do not the way I do. If you will read above you will see how I fell about the US. I belive I made it clear after Michelles post. Maybe, and although the memory of Americans claims otherwise, someone may remember the USA attack on Baghdad where 18,000 civilians were killed. Sure would like to see the source of that information. Currently looking I will providea link. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #124 November 27, 2002 I'm soooo sure that those links have unbiased data on them...show me stats from an unbiased third party, THEN I might start to believe your argument.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #125 November 27, 2002 QuoteYou are wrong the US does not deny having funded the Taliban. The funding you are referring to was a Clinton era "award" for the Taliban's efforts to wipe out the poppy fields and opium, etc. The alignment of the Taliban took hold after the Soviets withdrew. They were solidified with support from Pakistan because Pakistan needed a stable border to it's north and west to focus on India. That resulted in the Taliban taking control of the country (well 80%), minus the Northern Alliance, which then no longer posed a threat to Pakistans borders. QuoteI do believe you miss the point kind sir. It is about world views not mine. If you read the context of my post and argument it was all about why the world views USA the way they do not the way I do. If you will read above you will see how I fell about the US. I belive I made it clear after Michelles post. In a way, you are arguing the point for me too. The world views, with arrogance I might add, our policys when it is these very policies that saved western civilization from communism, national socialism, and literally millions of lives. I don't think it's about jealousy as I do think it's about arrogance. I think it is arrogant of the world to criticize us of arrogance. Gordon Sinclair said it best 30 years ago, "The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, war-mongering Americans." We've tried to stay out of it, time and time again...WWI, WWII, Bosnia, etc. Then we get kicked in the n*ts and the rest of the world gets fluttered when we take notice?! That's arrogance.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)